What if the Mad Mouse is actually Howland Reed?

[rotting sea cow]

you all know that theory, Ser Shadrich of the Shady Glen aka the "Mad Mouse" is actually Howland Reed in disguise.

As theories go, it has its ups and downs. The Mad Mouse has probably the right age and height to be Howland Reed, the paintings on his shield are tantalizing for someone so connected to the weirwood trees, etc. On the other hand, hair's color is probably wrong and more importantly nothing what he says can be interpreted as someone having a secret identity, unless you really like twisting words.

But what would happen if the theory is actually true?

The Mad Mouse is now in The Vale with the open intention of kidnap Sansa Stark. If the Mad Mouse was Howland Reed, why is he hunting for Sansa? The easiest answer is that Galbart Glover and Maege Mormont reached Howland Reed and told him about the last of Robb Stark's decrees. Being one of the very few who knows an important secret, he should have realized the trouble that decree might cause in the future, so he decided to hunt for the last of Robb's heirs.

(Of course you might wonder why he never went after his own heirs and/or Bran if he thinks he is alive. Yes, it's another weak point of the theory)

Now, what might happen next?

The tourney of the Vale is about to start. I'm one who believes that it's going to end in a clusterfuck of massive proportions. Alyane true identity is going to be exposed. Harry the Heir is likely to be severely injured or even die. It is possible that Sweet Robin is going to die too. Etc. Among the confusion the Mad Mouse might attempt to do his move.

As usually in asoiaf, things rarely go as planned. Many have pointed out the near impossibility to get out of the Vale in winter conditions (although Mya Stone might be of help), so it is likely the plan will fail and the Mad Mouse will be hunted and killed and Sansa "recovered". 

But before the end, the Mad Mouse might tell Sansa an important secret. So, when the Stark Succession Crisis unfolds and Robb's wish is revealed making Jon his heir, Sansa will blurt out: "But you are not a Stark"

 

 

[jthurman14]

Interesting. You propose she will get the info and then be able to use it to her advantage? She has been self serving before, lying about Joff and Arya scrap, but she paid a high price for that. Same as when she cooperated with Cersie against Ned. Which I think is overlooked as her being naïve not as a selfish brat that sold out her own father to be a queen, which is how I see it.  In that light I can see her doing whatever is required to gain power of her own. That would also predict that Shaddrich (who must be Howland or agent of Howlands to have Robbs Will) will be killed. Which would allow her change or lie about what's in Robb's Will. Certainly possible given GRRM's love of killing off major characters I like. Hell, Sansa might use little finger to kill him. Maybe the veil (no pun) on sansa being a loyal and good will be removed. The only Stark left to do anything would be.....Arya?? How sweet would that be?

[Nevets]

10 hours ago, rotting sea cow said:

you all know that theory, Ser Shadrich of the Shady Glen aka the "Mad Mouse" is actually Howland Reed in disguise.

As theories go, it has its ups and downs. The Mad Mouse has probably the right age and height to be Howland Reed, the paintings on his shield are tantalizing for someone so connected to the weirwood trees, etc. On the other hand, hair's color is probably wrong and more importantly nothing what he says can be interpreted as someone having a secret identity, unless you really like twisting words.

But what would happen if the theory is actually true?

The Mad Mouse is now in The Vale with the open intention of kidnap Sansa Stark. If the Mad Mouse was Howland Reed, why is he hunting for Sansa? The easiest answer is that Galbart Glover and Maege Mormont reached Howland Reed and told him about the last of Robb Stark's decrees. Being one of the very few who knows an important secret, he should have realized the trouble that decree might cause in the future, so he decided to hunt for the last of Robb's heirs.

(Of course you might wonder why he never went after his own heirs and/or Bran if he thinks he is alive. Yes, it's another weak point of the theory)

Now, what might happen next?

The tourney of the Vale is about to start. I'm one who believes that it's going to end in a clusterfuck of massive proportions. Alyane true identity is going to be exposed. Harry the Heir is likely to be severely injured or even die. It is possible that Sweet Robin is going to die too. Etc. Among the confusion the Mad Mouse might attempt to do his move.

As usually in asoiaf, things rarely go as planned. Many have pointed out the near impossibility to get out of the Vale in winter conditions (although Mya Stone might be of help), so it is likely the plan will fail and the Mad Mouse will be hunted and killed and Sansa "recovered". 

But before the end, the Mad Mouse might tell Sansa an important secret. So, when the Stark Succession Crisis unfolds and Robb's wish is revealed making Jon his heir, Sansa will blurt out: "But you are not a Stark"

 

 

I for one do not believe that the Mad Mouse is Howland Reed.  His words and actions do not match what I would expect of a Stark loyalist searching for Sansa.

Be that as it may, if he really is Howland Reed he has one really big problem.  Sansa has never met him, doesn't know what he looks like, and has absolutely no reason to trust him or believe anything he says.  She is reasonably safe, at least for the time being, so has no reason to accept rescue from him.  And if he takes her by force, she is likely to resist, which won't help the situation much and could make matters worse.

By the way getting out of the Vale isn't massively difficult.  You just have to go by boat, as the land route is closed, both by Winter and by the Clans  

Even if he has seen Robb's Will, I don't see any reason why anyone would take his word about it.  (Remember, nobody is likely to recognize him.)  As for Jon's parentage, I don't see Sansa necessarily believing.

So- in short - if he is Howland, he is unlikely to be able to accomplish much.  Of course, I am inclined to think he is the Mad Mouse, free-lance knight looking for a gig.

[Platypus Rex]

Shadrich's purpose is to be confused with other characters, such as Edric Dayne or Podrick Payne, in circumstances where we, the reader, will not get a close look at him.  He's a setup for misdirection.  Like Edric, he comes from a glen, and I'll bet Starfall's glen is also shady.

[rotting sea cow]

16 hours ago, jthurman14 said:

Interesting. You propose she will get the info and then be able to use it to her advantage? She has been self serving before, lying about Joff and Arya scrap, but she paid a high price for that. Same as when she cooperated with Cersie against Ned. Which I think is overlooked as her being naïve not as a selfish brat that sold out her own father to be a queen, which is how I see it. 

You are misreading Sansa's character.  If she was self serving, she would have never helped Dontos for example.

However, it is possible that under the influence of Littlefinger, Sansa takes some black turns, before finding herself again.

 

[rotting sea cow]

10 hours ago, Nevets said:

I for one do not believe that the Mad Mouse is Howland Reed.  His words and actions do not match what I would expect of a Stark loyalist searching for Sansa.

Pretty much agree as I stated in my post.

 

10 hours ago, Nevets said:

Be that as it may, if he really is Howland Reed he has one really big problem.  Sansa has never met him, doesn't know what he looks like, and has absolutely no reason to trust him or believe anything he says.  She is reasonably safe, at least for the time being, so has no reason to accept rescue from him.  And if he takes her by force, she is likely to resist, which won't help the situation much and could make matters worse.

You make good arguments, however I don't think Sansa will be safe for too long. I believe the turney will end badly and, among other things, Sansa identity will be revealed. She got enemies, chief among them Lyn Corbray, a "foe pretending to be a friend pretending to be a foe" as Sansa herself put it and very possibly Myranda Royce is not as friend of Sansa as she would like it.

 

10 hours ago, Nevets said:

By the way getting out of the Vale isn't massively difficult.  You just have to go by boat, as the land route is closed, both by Winter and by the Clans  

Sure, that's why the plan is doom to fail

10 hours ago, Nevets said:

Even if he has seen Robb's Will, I don't see any reason why anyone would take his word about it.  (Remember, nobody is likely to recognize him.)  As for Jon's parentage, I don't see Sansa necessarily believing.

Why not? There are things that nobody else can know.

 

 

[AllOfTheHours]

Interesting! I started rereading AFFC Monday night, and when we came to Ser Shadrich in Brienne's chapter, I was like, "Wait, was his shield always a white mouse with red eyes (which is used for weirwoods/Ghost/the North)?" Then, the next chapter was Sam fending off a little mouse eating the books at Castle Black, but this mouse was black and gray. I was thinking, isn't that weird? Shouldn't the description be reversed? If anything, the mice along the Wall relate to the mythos of the Rat King punished by the Old Gods (so weirwood references would be warranted), but Ser Shadrich is a random sellsword...? I'm not sure if he's 100% Howland Reed himself, but I wouldn't be surprised if he was someone sent by Howland to subtly investigate the area around Duskendale. Shadrich himself noted how obvious Brienne was making her search ("You're not the only hunter in the woods"), so he might just be better at camouflaging his true purpose.

[Faera]

46 minutes ago, AllOfTheHours said:

I'm not sure if he's 100% Howland Reed himself, but I wouldn't be surprised if he was someone sent by Howland to subtly investigate the area around Duskendale. Shadrich himself noted how obvious Brienne was making her search ("You're not the only hunter in the woods"), so he might just be better at camouflaging his true purpose.

If the Mad Mouse is related to House Reed or the crannogmen, (and I admit that's a big "if"), then this is what I think is most likely myself. I doubt Howland would go himself.

However, Shadrich has a backstory being a knight who fought in Blackwater and lost all his money through random... I don't think he is related to Howland or the crannogmen in general. As funny as it would be for Howland to be sending out an agent who pretends to be a knight, the last thing anyone would believe a crannogman would be, I don't think that's what's going on.

[Alexis-something-Rose]

If Howland Reed is playing at pretend then he'd be in line as one of the worst parents in the story. Does he even know where his children are? 

[rotting sea cow]

11 hours ago, AllOfTheHours said:

Interesting! I started rereading AFFC Monday night, and when we came to Ser Shadrich in Brienne's chapter, I was like, "Wait, was his shield always a white mouse with red eyes (which is used for weirwoods/Ghost/the North)?"

Yes, the size and age as well as the painting in his shield are suspicious. On the other hand, hair's color is probably wrong and there is nothing in his speech that would indicate he is Howland.

11 hours ago, AllOfTheHours said:

.? I'm not sure if he's 100% Howland Reed himself, but I wouldn't be surprised if he was someone sent by Howland to subtly investigate the area around Duskendale. Shadrich himself noted how obvious Brienne was making her search ("You're not the only hunter in the woods"), so he might just be better at camouflaging his true purpose.

 

10 hours ago, Faera said:

If the Mad Mouse is related to House Reed or the crannogmen, (and I admit that's a big "if"), then this is what I think is most likely myself. I doubt Howland would go himself.

Why not? He is the only crannogmen we know with the right age. For the purpose of the story, it makes more sense that he would go himself than sending someone at random.

9 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

If Howland Reed is playing at pretend then he'd be in line as one of the worst parents in the story. Does he even know where his children are? 

This is an interesting question. If Howland Reed is as good as Ned claims to be, why he did nothing when Theon took Winterfell? Why is he doing nothing to find out the fate of his children?

The only possible answer is that Bloodraven told him (in dreams?) they are fine and they are needed for the fight.

 

 

 

[bloodsteel bitterraven]

On 4/3/2019 at 9:39 AM, jthurman14 said:

 She has been self serving before, lying about Joff and Arya scrap, 

Sansa didn't lie about Arya and Joffrey.  She just didn't say anything.  There's a big difference, so please stop making stuff up.

[Faera]

3 hours ago, rotting sea cow said:

Why not? He is the only crannogmen we know with the right age. For the purpose of the story, it makes more sense that he would go himself than sending someone at random.

Because he's the Lord of Greywater Watch, leader of the crannogmen over all, a principle lord in the North and we have no legitimate reason to believe he isn't still commanding his men in the Neck. GRRM also isn't shy about introducing numerous supporting characters acting on behalf of more powerful ones. I just don't see the ruler of the Neck leaving his lands to go on a jolly in the Riverlands to find Sansa. He sent his children to Bran; maybe he sent another member of his family - a brother or one of the many bannermen Theon mentioned - to locate Sansa.

[HexMachina]

5 hours ago, rotting sea cow said:

Yes, the size and age as well as the painting in his shield are suspicious. On the other hand, hair's color is probably wrong and there is nothing in his speech that would indicate he is Howland.

 

Why not? He is the only crannogmen we know with the right age. For the purpose of the story, it makes more sense that he would go himself than sending someone at random.

This is an interesting question. If Howland Reed is as good as Ned claims to be, why he did nothing when Theon took Winterfell? Why is he doing nothing to find out the fate of his children?

The only possible answer is that Bloodraven told him (in dreams?) they are fine and they are needed for the fight.

 

 

 

News of their survival could also have come back to Howland via The Liddle

[AllOfTheHours]

I think this is an interesting theory, and one of the more plausible ways to introduce Howland Reed into the story in a way that fits meaningfully into existing plots. I did some searching to see if any other readers analyzed this possibility, this essay by @Blue-Eyed Wolf is really good and adds a lot of evidence for Howland being Shadrich. Main points of interest, are how Shadrich's responses about gold could have been to suss out Brienne's true intentions towards Sansa (he clearly felt the other two knights with her were frauds, but questioned her without revealing himself) and how his fighting style matches what we know of Howland (He's not a tourney knight and couldn't avenge himself against the squires who bullied him. However, he is an able fighter, and saved Ned's life at the Tower of Joy). 

[jthurman14]

8 hours ago, bloodsteel bitterraven said:

Sansa didn't lie about Arya and Joffrey.  She just didn't say anything.  There's a big difference, so please stop making stuff up.

Excuse me? Don't accuse me of making shit up when it is in the text.  She sided against her sister, when it was clearly Joff in the wrong and she knew it.  Are you contending she did nothing wrong by saying nothing? You want to split hairs go for it, but a lie of omission is still a lie imo.