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Kajjo

Daenerys is the Prince that was promised?

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, btfu806 said:

In the books, I think TPTWP/AA/whatever else is all a giant red herring.

In the show, I think it's Jon. I think they did the gender neutral stuff and pushed Dany because of the backlash after the Sansa wedding night scene (after that, the show became very heavy in girl power, not judging it, just stating as I see it). So I think that was their attempt to give a fan favorite, who happens to be female, the chance of being the "chosen one".

I try to image how Dany being the princess who was promised would play out after everything she has done and it doesn't' feel completely natural to me. But who knows, maybe D&D will find a way to make it work... Because to be fair, Jon being the prince who was promised feels way too cliche for GRRM, hence why I think it's a red herring.

No, the gender neutral stuff is very much in the books. It is mentioned directly by Aemon, and also the sphynx riddle where the male one is missing.

I think it is a red herring in the sense that this is about a hero who saves the day.

More likely it is a champion of blood and fire Rhllor magic, and will turn out to head in a dangerous direction that itself will need to be confronted. This isn’t a story about fire defeating ice after all, but about the need to balance both.

Edited by Hippocras

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21 minutes ago, Hippocras said:

No, the gender neutral stuff is very much in the books. It is mentioned directly by Aemon, and also the sphynx riddle where the male one is missing.

I think it is a red herring in the sense that this is about a hero who saves the day.

More likely it is a champion of blood and fire Rhllor magic, and will turn out to head in a dangerous direction that itself will need to be confronted. This isn’t a story about fire defeating ice after all, but about the need to balance both.

Trying to do this from memory. Aemon hears that of Dany and her dragons and is then convinced that she is the prince that was promised because in High Valyrian the word for dragon is gender neutral. Since dragons change genders. Then gets upset because he can't verify it all with others since he is old. But it isn't this foregone conclusion?

The sphinx riddle could be a ton of things?

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6 minutes ago, btfu806 said:

Trying to do this from memory. Aemon hears that of Dany and her dragons and is then convinced that she is the prince that was promised because in High Valyrian the word for dragon is gender neutral. Since dragons change genders. Then gets upset because he can't verify it all with others since he is old. But it isn't this foregone conclusion?

The sphinx riddle could be a ton of things?

The thing is that targs refer to themselves as dragons. So if the profecy uses the word dragon to talk about a targ it can be either a male or female. I think the argument come from here, but I am not sure… Either way, I think that the important thing is that aemon brings the idea that it can be either a prince or princess.

And I think we will only know who tptwp/AA were in the end. And it will be because they did things that can be interpreted as fulfiling the profecies instead of being people that did things because they tried to fulfill the profecies (like stannis and mel).

And the show shouldn t even be taken into account for magical stuff because they basically ignore the books and do whatever they want.

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15 hours ago, btfu806 said:

Because to be fair, Jon being the prince who was promised feels way too cliche for GRRM, hence why I think it's a red herring.

GRRM uses clichés but he wraps them with ten layers of boiled leather. Look at Tyrion, a bearded, axe-wielding dwarf living in a mine. Jon is like Aragorn, the ranger who reluctantly turned king. Bran, the little boy who must defeat a Great Evil. 

I tend to believe the character in the legend is a composite formed over time and Jon is just the prince and leader part. I doubt there will be a burning sword and Jon might not even fight the NK himself.

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I like the idea that even though Melisandre got so many things wrong she still found her way to tPtwP. She made it to the wall and Stannis helped Jon and the Wildlings to unite and form the first line of defense against the Army of the Dead.

I think Melisandre took many things too literally when looking at her visions rather than figuratively so she jumped to some wrong conclusions but somehow ended up exactly where she was needed to save Jon.

I think the "waking Dragons from stone" part is too literal when applied to Dany. I think there will be some more figurative application of this part of the prophesy which will applied to Jon.

But it may well be that the tv show isn't a subtle enough medium to do figurative and decides to just let it be Dany.

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2 hours ago, RedShirt47 said:

But it may well be that the tv show isn't a subtle enough medium to do figurative and decides to just let it be Dany.

Well, GRRM promised the show end will match the book end close enough. 

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19 hours ago, divica said:

The thing is that targs refer to themselves as dragons. So if the profecy uses the word dragon to talk about a targ it can be either a male or female. I think the argument come from here, but I am not sure… Either way, I think that the important thing is that aemon brings the idea that it can be either a prince or princess.

And I think we will only know who tptwp/AA were in the end. And it will be because they did things that can be interpreted as fulfiling the profecies instead of being people that did things because they tried to fulfill the profecies (like stannis and mel).

And the show shouldn t even be taken into account for magical stuff because they basically ignore the books and do whatever they want.

That is an interesting point. I have to relook why the prophecy is related to targs though. Since Azor Ahai wasn't a Targ? So why the change? Or maybe he was and I am not remembering at all.

And you're right, it could be important that Aemon brings up the idea of either a prince or princess, I guess we will have to wait and see. 

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4 minutes ago, Kajjo said:

Well, GRRM promised the show end will match the book end close enough. 

Oh yeah. The show absolutely will portrait GRRM's message about power in fantasy:

Ruling is hard. This was maybe my answer to Tolkien, whom, as much as I admire him, I do quibble with. Lord of the Rings had a very medieval philosophy: that if the king was a good man, the land would prosper. We look at real history and it’s not that simple. Tolkien can say that Aragorn became king and reigned for a hundred years, and he was wise and good. But Tolkien doesn’t ask the question: What was Aragorn’s tax policy? Did he maintain a standing army? What did he do in times of flood and famine? And what about all these orcs? By the end of the war, Sauron is gone but all of the orcs aren’t gone – they’re in the mountains. Did Aragorn pursue a policy of systematic genocide and kill them? Even the little baby orcs, in their little orc cradles?

NOT. Someone will become king for a hundred years and he will rule wise and good. I'm calling it. 

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21 hours ago, Hippocras said:

I think it is a red herring in the sense that this is about a hero who saves the day.

More likely it is a champion of blood and fire Rhllor magic, and will turn out to head in a dangerous direction that itself will need to be confronted. This isn’t a story about fire defeating ice after all, but about the need to balance both

:agree:

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On 4/10/2019 at 6:45 PM, Hippocras said:

This isn’t a story about fire defeating ice after all, but about the need to balance both.

Too true. I agree.

To balance or to quench and eliminate each other as magical force.

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Posted (edited)
On 4/3/2019 at 7:04 AM, Kajjo said:

Missandei explains in S7E2 that the valyrian word for "prince" is gender-neutral and can mean men and women alike. Why adding this scene if it is not important? Just a red herring?

No, indeed it continues an obvious set up which began in Essos.  

"Daenerys Stormborn is the one who was promised. From the fire she was reborn to remake the world. Her dragons are fire made flesh, a gift from the Lord of Light. The dragons will purify nonbelievers by the thousands, burning their sins and flesh away."

-Kinvara, High Priestess of R'hllor from Volantis   s06e05 "The Door"

Edited by Astrotherapist

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I believe Mel still has to be wrong somehow. She's forcing stuff again by "bringing ice and fire together" when she has no idea about Jon's parentage. She always thinks she's helping. 

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As far as the show is concerned? It's Daenerys. Unless she gives birth sometime within the next six episodes, she is the only option. No one else makes sense.

Nobody remembers Melisandre's Lightbringer speeches from season 2-3. Nobody really paid attention because the showrunners decided to make Melisandre look more like a complete looney-toon zealot and less like a full-fledged sorceress. Nobody knows who Azor Ahai and Nissa Nissa are. Nobody knows about Summerhall, the quasi-magical science experiments that the post-Dance Targaryens conducted or Rhaegar's obsession with prophecy.

The storylines with Arya and Bran in season 3 were super-rushed so there's even less prophecy to work with.

Jon getting the big-damn-reveal of being both the Prince that Was Promised AND the heir to the Iron Throne is so cliché, it makes me sick. And it makes no sense.

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1 hour ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

As far as the show is concerned? It's Daenerys. Unless she gives birth sometime within the next six episodes, she is the only option. No one else makes sense.

Nobody remembers Melisandre's Lightbringer speeches from season 2-3. Nobody really paid attention because the showrunners decided to make Melisandre look more like a complete looney-toon zealot and less like a full-fledged sorceress. Nobody knows who Azor Ahai and Nissa Nissa are. Nobody knows about Summerhall, the quasi-magical science experiments that the post-Dance Targaryens conducted or Rhaegar's obsession with prophecy.

The storylines with Arya and Bran in season 3 were super-rushed so there's even less prophecy to work with.

Jon getting the big-damn-reveal of being both the Prince that Was Promised AND the heir to the Iron Throne is so cliché, it makes me sick. And it makes no sense.

The show and books will be aligned on the answer.

Only a King's blood can wake the stone dragon.  Now we've established that Jon is the rightful heir and King, it doesn't look good for the poor chap!

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Posted (edited)
On 4/10/2019 at 1:31 PM, divica said:

And I think we will only know who tptwp/AA were in the end. And it will be because they did things that can be interpreted as fulfiling the profecies instead of being people that did things because they tried to fulfill the profecies (like stannis and mel).

I don't think we'll ever have a clear answer, but then I believe Azor Ahai is a composite character. You're right about doing things that can be interpreted as fulfilling the prophecies. IMO, the sword tempering in water and the lion has already happened at the dragon pit meeting when they ask for Euron's and Cersei's help. You might even say Nissa's stabbing happened on the boat. :-)

Edited by Erick Storm

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On 4/3/2019 at 8:04 AM, Kajjo said:

In the "Histories and Lore"-Special of the DVD, there is a narration by Thoros of Myr:

We're going by DVD extras? 

 

In no way will the end of the show be constrained by whatever you heard there. Except in the sense that the ending had already been decided before it was recorded. T

hey'll make the Good Guy Who Was Foretold Long Ago by Whoever Danny, Jon, Dany and Jon, Danny and Jon's kid, Tyrion, Hot Pie, the Night King, Zombie Mountain, or whomever they want. 

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On 4/9/2019 at 9:53 AM, Kajjo said:

fresh crush and a little boat sex with Daenerys, but love?

I interpret the show as wishing us to believe they are in love, though the actors' faces were unable to convey such information. 

Still, they're both Targaryens. They have familial love in their blood. 

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On 4/11/2019 at 2:43 AM, Erick Storm said:

 doubt there will be a burning sword and Jon might not even fight the NK himself.

We've already seen a burning sword, remember? But it would be cool if a dragon had to fly to Old Valyria and have Sam help forge a new sword from a step-by-step guide he found in a book. 

Jon *has* to fight Night King. No two ways about it. That frosty s.o.b. threw down the gauntlet at Hardhom. Straight up gangsta-ly. 

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On 4/11/2019 at 8:31 AM, SirArthur said:

Oh yeah. The show absolutely will portrait GRRM's message about power in fantasy:

Ruling is hard. This was maybe my answer to Tolkien, whom, as much as I admire him, I do quibble with. Lord of the Rings had a very medieval philosophy: that if the king was a good man, the land would prosper. We look at real history and it’s not that simple. Tolkien can say that Aragorn became king and reigned for a hundred years, and he was wise and good. But Tolkien doesn’t ask the question: What was Aragorn’s tax policy? Did he maintain a standing army? What did he do in times of flood and famine? And what about all these orcs? By the end of the war, Sauron is gone but all of the orcs aren’t gone – they’re in the mountains. Did Aragorn pursue a policy of systematic genocide and kill them? Even the little baby orcs, in their little orc cradles?

NOT. Someone will become king for a hundred years and he will rule wise and good. I'm calling it. 

That quote is one of the stupidest I've ever read from an intelligent person. And that's assuming it was partly tongue-in-cheek. 

 

In any case, the most you can say about Game of Thrones is that it has more tax policy than Lord of the Rings. But it doesn't have anywhere near the Medieval political and economic detail you'd find in a Ken Follett novel. 

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16 minutes ago, darmody said:

We've already seen a burning sword, remember? But it would be cool if a dragon had to fly to Old Valyria and have Sam help forge a new sword from a step-by-step guide he found in a book. 

Jon *has* to fight Night King. No two ways about it. That frosty s.o.b. threw down the gauntlet at Hardhom. Straight up gangsta-ly. 

If you mean Stannis', that's just someone taking the prophecy literally. A dragon is more likely.

 

It goes like this:

Hey Euron, can I get some help? No. Sword breaks in water.

Hey Cersei, can we get some help? No. Sword breaks in lion.

Jon stabs Dany with his "sword", gets a dragon (burning sword)

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