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Top 10 Fighters, 281 AC Edition

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7 hours ago, CAllDSmith said:

I have some disputes with this. The first is something that I think shows both Dayne and Brandon's skill versue Robert's strength. Honestly the best visual example in recent years for my point is The Last Jedi, the rock that Rey and countless Jedi before her have used to train their lightsaber skills. They're not learning how to swing a blade, they're learning to stop. Both Brandon and Arthur Dayne wound an opponent anywhere between six and a dozen times before finishing the fight. This is a matter of incredible skill, as the scene I'm referencing shows. It is much easier to land a finishing blow than it is to cut that finishing blow short. Compare just trying to cut halfway through a steak with a meat cleaver. 

The second point is the idea of Dawn cutting through the Smiling Knight's sword. Swords breaking on each other is a Hollywood fantasy. (I know we're talking about a fantasy story, but if we're going to have this conversation it needs to be ground at least partially in reality.) Unless the sword was poorly made or had some form of imperfection the sword will not break. Donal Noye talks about this a bit when he compares the Baratheon brothers. Breaking a sword by hitting it with another sword would be similar to breaking a stick by hitting it with another stick. If the stick's are good wood they won't break on each other unless both ends of the stick are braced. What happened with the SK's sword is that it became chipped and blunted, most likely from parrying and being parried. 

Third, the lethality of Robert's iron warhammer in comparison to the greatsword Dawn. It is true that war hammers were designed to counter the issue of heavier and heavier plate. When it comes to fighting Robert I would put Barristan, Jaime or someone of their skill level fighting with sword and shield at a win maybe 6/10 or 7/10 times. I would give the Red Viper and his poisoned eight foot spear with a two foot blade at a win 9/10 times. Dayne versus Robert is different because neither possesses the reach advantage due to both using two handed weapons. I will suspend disbelief for Robert's strength and the weight of his hammer, however I will not give him the edge on deadliest weapon straight away. Dayne's weapon has a six foot reach that can injure or kill anywhere in that range, Robert's weapon has a similar reach but only a small location where he can deal damage. In order for Robert to damage Dayne he needs to expose himself and his weakest areas, namely his fingers. In order to block Robert also has to put his iron weapon into a position where it can be bent or broken (holding it from both ends.) As for the lethality of the war hammer, I will give you the crippling blow to the arms. Taking a leg might actually benefit Dayne (better angle for those knees and codpiece.) as for chest, Robert only has a back handed swing to get a near instant kill with his spike to the torso. As for the blow to the head, no swing opens Robert up to more danger from Dayne and Baelor Breakspear (and people who have been run over by a train.) show that a crushing would like that isn't a guaranteed instant kill. 

Robert and Jon never met in battle. They never crossed blades or jousted against each other that we know of.  

Harwin's father Hullen was possibly at the battle, Jory Cassel most likely squired there and many of the other men Harwin served with and drank with were there. He would know. 

Jaime Lannister almost slew Robb in the Whispering Wood, but they never crossed blades. This also wasn't a one on one fight but a chaotic brawl in the streets. Also interesting is the distance from the Peach to Stoney Sept, the Peach is in the eastern part of the market square and Stoney Sept is on top of the hill.  Robert had the advantage of surprise when it came to slaying Ser Myles Mooton and six other knights and the nature of his wound was obviously not bad enough to prevent him from boinking the entire Peach.  

Highly disagree with this. We can say for a certainty that all seven of the Kingsguard in 281 could kill Robert on horseback (which is one of the criteria we have to consider.) As for "having the feats for it" Robert has no feats to his name in 281, he's never been in a battle or an actual fight to the death. Expanding to 283 because that's how this entire discussion has gone any of the four mentioned could have beaten Robert. (I'll give Hightower the lowest odds for age and hand wound, but still great odds.) The only reason that we can say for a certainty about Barristan is because he's the only one we actually have a full biography for. Hightower is anywhere between sixty and eighty at the time of his death.  At worst he earned his spurs during the various rebellions Aegon V had to put down, led the troops during the War of the Ninepenny Kings, embodied chivalry during the period of peace following the death of Maelys the Monstrous, and led the early war against the Kingswood Brotherhood. Hightower certain has the feats. Every one of the sworn brothers has a similar pedigree, while you're right we cannot say for certain that Jonothor Darry, Oswell Whent, or Prince Lewyn Martell were better than Robert we also cannot dismiss them out of hand. 

Both because "finest knight I ever saw" trumps Robert being a peerless warrior and that Arthur Dayne was dead by the time Robert was in his prime.  He did not peak at 21 during the Rebellion, and had not degraded to what he was when he visited Winterfell by the time of Greyjoy's Rebellion. Robert's prime (his peak, best) was when he was at 27 during the Greyjoy Rebellion and no warrior was his peer. "Peerless" also doesn't always mean without peer, same as scarcely doesn't always mean "barely there" it could also mean "only just made it"

Yeah? Okay. Don’t mind me, but I’m just going to leave this here.

 

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Rhaegar and Benjen are two of the most overrated fighters in the ASOIAF verse.

Robert is also widely overrated albeit still deserves to rank highly in such lists.

Rhaegar was never described as skilled with a sword, has no battle feats, no hype, putting him in a top 10 fighters list is baseless, using Robert's feat of killing him to hype up Robert is also baseless too and the reason why I believe the Stag King is also overrated.

Benjen is the same, being better than Ned isn't substantial hype whatsoever.

Fact is that a 16 year old Jaime had more to his name than either Rhaegar or Benjen.

 

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9 hours ago, PirateVergo said:

Rhaegar was never described as skilled with a sword, has no battle feats, no hype, putting him in a top 10 fighters list is baseless, using Robert's feat of killing him to hype up Robert is also baseless too and the reason why I believe the Stag King is also overrated.

Here's several quotes where Rhaegar is described as skilled with a sword: 

Quote

"Your Grace," said Whitebeard, "the Prince of Dragonstone was a most puissant warrior, but . . ." - Dany ch1 ASOS

puissant- adj. having great power or influence. 

Quote

"As you command." The old man leaned upon his hardwood staff, his brow furrowed. "A warrior without peer . . . those are fine words, Your Grace, but words win no battles."

"Swords win battles," Ser Jorah said bluntly. "And Prince Rhaegar knew how to use one."

"He did, ser, but . . . I have seen a hundred tournaments and more wars than I would wish, and however strong or fast or skilled a knight may be, there are others who can match him. A man will win one tourney, and fall quickly in the next. A slick spot in the grass may mean defeat, or what you ate for supper the night before. A change in the wind may bring the gift of victory." He glanced at Ser Jorah. "Or a lady's favor knotted round an arm." - Ibid

Barristan's first line here combines with Jorah's description to suggest that it was not Rhaegar who lost the battle, but his army as a whole. Jorah is also here saying that Rhaegar knew how to use a sword i.e. was skilled with one, considering Jorah's own ability. This is also followed by the definitive statement for why making such a top ten list will get ridiculous quickly, (something I've already noted multiple times here.) there are so many different factors that come into a fight that cannot be accounted for with the knowledge we have. We can however say with near certainty that if Rhaegar had still had his war lance when he met the Demon of the Trident that fight would have gone much differently. 

 

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No one knows what it might have been, only that the boy suddenly appeared early one morning in the yard as the knights were donning their steel. He walked up to Ser Willem Darry, the master-at-arms, and said, 'I will require sword and armor. It seems I must be a warrior.'" - Ibid 

The knight Rhaegar trained under was Ser Willem Darry, brother to Kingsguard knight Ser Jonothor Darry. Among the men he trained, squired and grew up with were Jon Connington (Who nearly slew Hoster Tully, did slay Ser Denys Arryn and possessed the requisite physical ability to escape from the center of Stoney Sept with the retinues of the Lords of Riverrun, Storm's End, the Vale, and Winterfell close at hand.) and Arthur Dayne the Sword of the Morning. 

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"No, Your Grace. That honor went to another knight of the Kingsguard, who unhorsed Prince Rhaegar in the final tilt."

Dany did not want to hear about Rhaegar being unhorsed. "But what tourneys did my brother win?"

"Your Grace." The old man hesitated. "He won the greatest tourney of them all." -ASOS Dany IV

There is more than just swordsmanship to being a knight, a knight is a mounted combatant. Among the people that Rhaegar unhorsed at the tourney at Storm's End are: Lord Steffon Baratheon, Lord Jason Mallister, Prince Oberyn Martell, Simon Toyne, and Arthur Dayne. At the Tourney at Harrenhal his foes included: Dayne, Selmy, Bronze Yohn Royce, and Brandon Stark. 

 

This pedigree of training among the best of the realm, and consistently defeating the best in knightly combat speaks for itself to his ability as it pertains to discussing the best fighters of 281. It also needs to noted that Robert had won even fewer battles than Rhaegar at that point in time. 

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1 hour ago, CAllDSmith said:

This is also followed by the definitive statement for why making such a top ten list will get ridiculous quickly, (something I've already noted multiple times here.) there are so many different factors that come into a fight that cannot be accounted for with the knowledge we have.

I agree that many points are open to discussion and circumstances will determine a single fight. It's the same with any kind of individual competition in our world. Take tennis for example. You can have evenly matched players like McEnroe and Connors, but then the surface they play on can have a big impact - clay vs. grass vs. hard court. Same with fighters, where circumstances can intervene. So it is difficult to find agreement whenever we talk about who is the best at a given sport.

However, we can usually find plenty of agreement on who belongs in the conversation. For example, we're all arguing about whether Rhaegar or Robert was better, but we're all talking about Rhaegar and Robert. It's impossible to have a definitive argument for one over the other, but the argument that both were among the best seems pretty clear.

All the characters in the book with any way of knowing seem to have had great regard for their abilities as warriors as well. I think it's pretty clear that these two belong in the conversation when talking about the second tier (assuming Dayne and Selmy are the first tier). I see a lot of people saying these two are overrated, but not a lot of proposals for who would have been considered superior at that time.

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On 4/5/2019 at 8:58 PM, Syl of Syl said:

Barristan Selmy was in his forties at the time of the rebellion, so I think it's safe to say that he was no longer in his prime. Robert on the other hand would have been nineteen in 281. I don't know exactly how knights age in Westeros, but it's pretty unusual for a modern athlete in his forties to compete with nineteen year olds. I imagine fighting at an elite level would have been the same.

I know we see sixty year old Selmy do some amazing things, but we have to consider the competition level. He killed a couple gold cloaks with his bare hands. But then Dayne (who is definitely in his prime) along with two of his sworn brothers have trouble with seven northerners (I know Howland Reed may have provided some extenuating circumstances there, but still it's what we've got to go on). If it was Janos Slynt and six stooges, I think Dayne, Hightower and Whent are still alive. Could past his prime Selmy have handled Robert Baratheon in the best shape of his life? Perhaps he really was that legendary, but I don't think we can say it's a sure thing one way or the other.

Fighters usually peak in their late 20s to early 30s, with some maintaining their primes even later.  Usually the first thing to go is speed, which is less important if we're talking about heavily armored guys fighting.  If they're using swords to fight in plate armor, well...it'd matter even less.  A poleaxe or hammer would be the best, and they're not weapons based around speed.

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As my posts tend to be erased by mods I'll be brief. Rhaegar was never ever implied to be a better fighter than Robert, neither he was praised by the best warriors such as Barristan or Jaime (who never even thought of him as a warrior) nor he was praised by GRRM himself which is Robert's case. As a warrior, Robert has the best achievements of the saga bar Barristan whether it comes to him fighting with a sword or him fighting with his hammer. Rhaegar's fans may not like it but it doesn't matter, facts are Robert smashed their favorite fair and square and thus after having defeated every loyalist champions that had come across him.

Brandon has never done anything that put him near someone like Robert a war hero who put down a dynasty. His best achievement is losing at some Tourney, what a great feats.

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16 hours ago, Kal-L said:

As my posts tend to be erased by mods I'll be brief. Rhaegar was never ever implied to be a better fighter than Robert, neither he was praised by the best warriors such as Barristan or Jaime (who never even thought of him as a warrior) nor he was praised by GRRM himself which is Robert's case. As a warrior, Robert has the best achievements of the saga bar Barristan whether it comes to him fighting with a sword or him fighting with his hammer. Rhaegar's fans may not like it but it doesn't matter, facts are Robert smashed their favorite fair and square and thus after having defeated every loyalist champions that had come across him.

Brandon has never done anything that put him near someone like Robert a war hero who put down a dynasty. His best achievement is losing at some Tourney, what a great feats.

Please look about to my several quotes from Barristan about Rhaegar's abilities. He makes it pretty clear that Rhaegar didn't lose the battle of the Trident because of lack of ability alone, and we can take it as a near certainty that if he had been armed with a lance Robert would have died before even getting into swinging distance with that hammer. Also, next time you're cooking steak, take your steak knife and in one quick swing cut only partway into the beef. You will find it's very difficult, Brandon did that nearly a dozen times to Petyr Baelish, who was already a skinny boy. That's why people put Brandon high in skill, because he's demonstrably skilled enough with his sword to cut someone to pieces without killing them, which is more difficult than actually killing them. 

Again, the title of the thread is also 281 AC not 283, not 284, not 282, 281. Robert has not killed anyone at the point we're discussing, he's not even been in a battle by this point. If we're going to judge people by feats of arms by 281 both Tully brothers, Tygett Lannister, Lord Baelish, Tywin Lannister, Kevan Lannister and Aerys have all have killed more men and won more battles than Robert has. No is saying that Robert isn't good, we're not even saying that Robert isn't GREAT, we're just saying that he is not a god, that all of the top 10 are reasonably close to each other in skill by definition and that small variables are what would determine the fight between most of them. We also know the name of one man who could kill Robert easily, Prince Oberyn Martell, since the man demonstrates that big and fast aren't things that trump his speed and reach. Add in a fast acting poison and Robert goes down. 

Finally, we are being very limited with who we are including in our top ten fighters here, we're only naming Westerosi when we could also be considering Syrio Forel, Areo Hotah, Strong Belwas, Khal Drogo, Mance Rayder, Qhorin Halfhand, and plenty of other people that don't typically cross our radar. 

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1 hour ago, CAllDSmith said:

He makes it pretty clear that Rhaegar didn't lose the battle of the Trident because of lack of ability alone, and we can take it as a near certainty that if he had been armed with a lance Robert would have died before even getting into swinging distance with that hammer.

Why? If Robert's Kryptonite was mounted combat, he would never have survived long enough to meet Rhaegar on the field. He met three armies at Summerhall, he'd had to deal with plenty of incoming cavalrymen. 

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On 5/4/2019 at 11:48 AM, Denam_Pavel said:

Why? If Robert's Kryptonite was mounted combat, he would never have survived long enough to meet Rhaegar on the field. He met three armies at Summerhall, he'd had to deal with plenty of incoming cavalrymen. 

I'm not saying that Robert's kryptonite is mounted combat, I'm saying we've never seen him actually do well in mounted combat, at all, while also seeing Rhaegar consistently making it to the top four in tourneys, including ones with Robert present. Robert prefers the melees for a reason, he gets trounced by other knights when it comes to mounted combat and his main weapon (a two handed war hammer.) cannot be used effectively from horseback. 

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19 minutes ago, CAllDSmith said:

I'm not saying that Robert's kryptonite is mounted combat, I'm saying we've never seen him actually do well in mounted combat, at all, while also seeing Rhaegar consistently making it to the top four in tourneys, including ones with Robert present. Robert prefers the melees for a reason, he gets trounced by other knights when it comes to mounted combat and his main weapon (a two handed war hammer.) cannot be used effectively from horseback. 

I agree, but that if far removed from near certain death. Rhaegar is not proven to be a near perfect killing machine on horseback. Nor have any of the other celebrated tourney knight proven to be. If we assume they are both charging each other on horseback and both Robert's hands are still preoccupied wielding his war hammer then yeah, Rhaegar would probably still be around. Robert was at a numerical disadvantage at the Trident and had been for basically the whole war until then. His survival is partly credited to being able to quickly move from place to place. He's no stranger to encountering foes while on horseback. Surely we can afford him that benefit of the doubt? Personally I imagine both Rhaegar and Robert arrived at the Trident on horseback and both survived to fight on dismounted.

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3 hours ago, CAllDSmith said:

I'm not saying that Robert's kryptonite is mounted combat, I'm saying we've never seen him actually do well in mounted combat, at all, while also seeing Rhaegar consistently making it to the top four in tourneys, including ones with Robert present. Robert prefers the melees for a reason, he gets trounced by other knights when it comes to mounted combat and his main weapon (a two handed war hammer.) cannot be used effectively from horseback. 

Except that his most famous fight, the one where he killed Rhaegar was mounted. He was able to use his warhammer effectively from horseback in that instance. 

For the likes of Robert and other nobles, they would have been doing most of their fighting from horseback so to have a favorite weapon that he couldn't use at all from horseback would be nonsensical.

And Robert preferred melees but if he couldn't fight from horseback, he wouldn't be much use as most tournament melees would have been fought from horseback at least initially. After all, they are knights - the warhorse is a very important part of being a knight.

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On 5/4/2019 at 10:25 AM, CAllDSmith said:

Please look about to my several quotes from Barristan about Rhaegar's abilities. He makes it pretty clear that Rhaegar didn't lose the battle of the Trident because of lack of ability alone, and we can take it as a near certainty that if he had been armed with a lance Robert would have died before even getting into swinging distance with that hammer. Also, next time you're cooking steak, take your steak knife and in one quick swing cut only partway into the beef. You will find it's very difficult, Brandon did that nearly a dozen times to Petyr Baelish, who was already a skinny boy. That's why people put Brandon high in skill, because he's demonstrably skilled enough with his sword to cut someone to pieces without killing them, which is more difficult than actually killing them. 

Again, the title of the thread is also 281 AC not 283, not 284, not 282, 281. Robert has not killed anyone at the point we're discussing, he's not even been in a battle by this point. If we're going to judge people by feats of arms by 281 both Tully brothers, Tygett Lannister, Lord Baelish, Tywin Lannister, Kevan Lannister and Aerys have all have killed more men and won more battles than Robert has. No is saying that Robert isn't good, we're not even saying that Robert isn't GREAT, we're just saying that he is not a god, that all of the top 10 are reasonably close to each other in skill by definition and that small variables are what would determine the fight between most of them. We also know the name of one man who could kill Robert easily, Prince Oberyn Martell, since the man demonstrates that big and fast aren't things that trump his speed and reach. Add in a fast acting poison and Robert goes down. 

Finally, we are being very limited with who we are including in our top ten fighters here, we're only naming Westerosi when we could also be considering Syrio Forel, Areo Hotah, Strong Belwas, Khal Drogo, Mance Rayder, Qhorin Halfhand, and plenty of other people that don't typically cross our radar. 

I think it is hard 

 

On 5/4/2019 at 10:25 AM, CAllDSmith said:

Please look about to my several quotes from Barristan about Rhaegar's abilities. He makes it pretty clear that Rhaegar didn't lose the battle of the Trident because of lack of ability alone, and we can take it as a near certainty that if he had been armed with a lance Robert would have died before even getting into swinging distance with that hammer. Also, next time you're cooking steak, take your steak knife and in one quick swing cut only partway into the beef. You will find it's very difficult, Brandon did that nearly a dozen times to Petyr Baelish, who was already a skinny boy. That's why people put Brandon high in skill, because he's demonstrably skilled enough with his sword to cut someone to pieces without killing them, which is more difficult than actually killing them. 

Again, the title of the thread is also 281 AC not 283, not 284, not 282, 281. Robert has not killed anyone at the point we're discussing, he's not even been in a battle by this point. If we're going to judge people by feats of arms by 281 both Tully brothers, Tygett Lannister, Lord Baelish, Tywin Lannister, Kevan Lannister and Aerys have all have killed more men and won more battles than Robert has. No is saying that Robert isn't good, we're not even saying that Robert isn't GREAT, we're just saying that he is not a god, that all of the top 10 are reasonably close to each other in skill by definition and that small variables are what would determine the fight between most of them. We also know the name of one man who could kill Robert easily, Prince Oberyn Martell, since the man demonstrates that big and fast aren't things that trump his speed and reach. Add in a fast acting poison and Robert goes down. 

Finally, we are being very limited with who we are including in our top ten fighters here, we're only naming Westerosi when we could also be considering Syrio Forel, Areo Hotah, Strong Belwas, Khal Drogo, Mance Rayder, Qhorin Halfhand, and plenty of other people that don't typically cross our radar. 

In 281 Robert was 19, older than Loras Tyrell is with all of his prowess. Rhaegar was21. I do not think the two years here is going to make a tremendous difference between the two. I think it is fairly reasonable for us to say that the difference in their skills in 281 and 283 was not tremendous, even though Robert gained experience in the war. I would still vouch for him being a better fighter. Worst case scenario, slightly worse or equal before experience. Mind you Rhaegar had no previous war experience himself.

 

As far as the Essos characters: the story is based on Westeros. We know little to nothing about these characters at this time (aside from being alive by mathematical calculations and Mance being in the NW).

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On 5/4/2019 at 4:25 PM, CAllDSmith said:

Again, the title of the thread is also 281 AC not 283, not 284, not 282, 281. Robert has not killed anyone at the point we're discussing, he's not even been in a battle by this point. If we're going to judge people by feats of arms by 281 both Tully brothers, Tygett Lannister, Lord Baelish, Tywin Lannister, Kevan Lannister and Aerys have all have killed more men and won more battles than Robert has.

I meant to discuss a two/three year period, not necessarily 281 AC alone:

So I was thinking about most extraordinary fighters of previous era, 281-283 AC roughly, the period encompassing Tourney at Harrenhal and Robert's Rebellion.

 

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On 4/30/2019 at 6:59 PM, CAllDSmith said:

Here's several quotes where Rhaegar is described as skilled with a sword: 

Quote

All of your quotes can be summed by : Barristan tries to please Dany as much as he can by praising her brother whom she idolizes as a perfect man.

What battle had Rhaegar fought before the Rebellion? What Knight had he defeated with a sword? Rhaegar's skill was never ever portrayed to be on the level of Jaime,Sandor,Gregor,Dayne or Barristan. I doubt he could even defeat Loras Tyrell in single combat.

Apple does not fall far from the three, Jon has more interest in combat than Rhaegar ever did yet he's not a prodigy.

 

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10 hours ago, PirateVergo said:

All of your quotes can be summed by : Barristan tries to please Dany as much as he can by praising her brother whom she idolizes as a perfect man.

Except Barristan had just been ordered to tell her the truth, and he is sworn to obey. Also one of those quotes is from Jorah. Barristan's job is not to please Dany, as shown when he protests her calling Eddard 'the usurper's dog'. To quote from the wiki: 

Quote

and from all reports grew into a highly skilled and capable fighter, always distinguishing himself well at tournaments, although he seldom entered the lists

No one else alive is talking about the quality of warrior Rhaegar was. Cersei just thinks he was pretty, everyone else either didn't know him or its not really a topic that comes up in conversation. 

 

10 hours ago, PirateVergo said:

What battle had Rhaegar fought before the Rebellion? What Knight had he defeated with a sword? Rhaegar's skill was never ever portrayed to be on the level of Jaime,Sandor,Gregor,Dayne or Barristan. I doubt he could even defeat Loras Tyrell in single combat.

Kingswood Brotherhood and Defiance of Duskendale, he has been involved in two battles or campaigns. Where Robert has done known. The same question can be put forward to Robert. Dayne, Jaime and Barristan are on a level beyond many others, Gregor is only a great fighter because he drugs himself so much with milk of the poppy, if he could actually feel pain he would not be a good fighter or battle field leader. (Giant target.) Sandor isn't even a factor  considering he was about twelve at the times we're discussing. 

 

11 hours ago, PirateVergo said:

Apple does not fall far from the three, Jon has more interest in combat than Rhaegar ever did yet he's not a prodigy.

We actually don't know the quality of Jon's fighting at this point. When GRRM wrote the Wot vs. ASOIAF cast he had Jaime say that he would have expected Jon to be in the fight. While this isn't canon ,because Jaime and Jon have never actually met, it does show how GRRM would expect Jaime to think of Jon. There is a fairly strong argument that he is currently the best swordsman on the Wall. We don't really know how hard Rhaegar trained, or what his routine was, but we do know that the man he trained under was considered a respectable substitute for Tygett Lannister (A man who Jaime fights like.) and that the men he trained with and knew from a young age are both above average knights. Jon's skill is actually a matter of some discussion due to the superhuman strength that he's shown and the warg-rage ability. 

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On 5/5/2019 at 6:10 PM, CAllDSmith said:

I'm not saying that Robert's kryptonite is mounted combat, I'm saying we've never seen him actually do well in mounted combat, at all, while also seeing Rhaegar consistently making it to the top four in tourneys, including ones with Robert present. Robert prefers the melees for a reason, he gets trounced by other knights when it comes to mounted combat and his main weapon (a two handed war hammer.) cannot be used effectively from horseback. 

Mounted combat isn't limited to fighting with a lance and jousting, melees also could perfectly be mounted combat, in fact every charge ends by definition in a melee, hell Robert defeated Rhaegar in mounted combat, since when people uses jousting skills to etermine whether someone is better warrior or not when there are real feats to consider??

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He could no longer tell the difference between waking and sleeping. The memory came creeping upon him in the darkness, as vivid as a dream. It was the year of false spring, and he was eighteen again, down from the Eyrie to the tourney at Harrenhal. He could see the deep green of the grass, and smell the pollen on the wind. Warm days and cool nights and the sweet taste of wine. He remembered Brandon’s laughter, and Robert’s berserk valor in the melee, the way he laughed as he unhorsed men left and right. He remembered Jaime Lannister, a golden youth in scaled white armor, kneeling on the grass in front of the king’s pavilion and making his vows to protect and defend King Aerys. Afterward, Ser Oswell Whent helped Jaime to his feet, and the White Bull himself, Lord Commander Ser Gerold Hightower, fastened the snowy cloak of the Kingsguard about his shoulders. All six White Swords were there to welcome their newest brother.

 

Robert's warhammer was one handed, he fought with a warhammer and a shield on horseback.

 

 

On 5/7/2019 at 2:58 PM, CAllDSmith said:

Except Barristan had just been ordered to tell her the truth, and he is sworn to obey. Also one of those quotes is from Jorah. Barristan's job is not to please Dany, as shown when he protests her calling Eddard 'the usurper's dog'. To quote from the wiki: 

Quote

 

Barristan is being coerced by Dany, Barry says Rhaegar wasn't that good and then Dany says Rhaegar is a peerles warrior, Jorah btw is passing himself as a loyalist so...

 

Quote

“The Sword of the Morning!” said Dany, delighted. “Viserys used to talk about his wondrous white blade. He said Ser Arthur was the only knight in the realm who was our brother’s peer.”

Whitebeard bowed his head. “It is not my place to question the words of Prince Viserys.”

“King,” Dany corrected. “He was a king, though he never reigned. Viserys, the Third of His Name. But what do you mean?” His answer had not been one that she’d expected. “Ser Jorah named Rhaegar the last dragon once. He had to have been a peerless warrior to be called that, surely?”

“Your Grace,” said Whitebeard, “the Prince of Dragonstone was a most puissant warrior, but ...” “Go on,” she urged. “You may speak freely to me.”

“As you command.” The old man leaned upon his hardwood staff, his brow furrowed. “A warrior without peer … those are fine words, Your Grace, but words win no battles.”

“Swords win battles,” Ser Jorah said bluntly. “And Prince Rhaegar knew how to use one.”

“He did, ser, but … I have seen a hundred tournaments and more wars than I would wish, and however strong or fast or skilled a knight may be, there are others who can match him. A man will win one tourney, and fall quickly in the next. A slick spot in the grass may mean defeat, or what you ate for supper the night before. A change in the wind may bring the gift of victory.” He glanced at Ser Jorah. “Or a lady’s favor knotted round an arm.”

Barry B is dancing between telling Dany what he wants to say and what Dany wants to  hear, that and the fact  that Jorah is playing the Targ loyalist card, Dany herself can tell that Barry B don't agree with the hype.

On 5/7/2019 at 2:58 PM, CAllDSmith said:

Kingswood Brotherhood and Defiance of Duskendale, he has been involved in two battles or campaigns. Where Robert has done known. The same question can be put forward to Robert. Dayne, Jaime and Barristan are on a level beyond many others, Gregor is only a great fighter because he drugs himself so much with milk of the poppy, if he could actually feel pain he would not be a good fighter or battle field leader. (Giant target.) Sandor isn't even a factor  considering he was about twelve at the times we're discussing. 

 

We don't know whether he fought in Kingswood campaign but no one has ever mentioned him, which is weird enough, he def didn't fight in Duskendale giving that Barry B pulled a miracle by single handely rescuing Aerys. People say Rhaegar was good, no one ever said the man was even among of the best, it's odd enough that Jaime never thinks about him as warrior isn't it??

 

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Please look about to my several quotes from Barristan about Rhaegar's abilities. He makes it pretty clear that Rhaegar didn't lose the battle of the Trident because of lack of ability alone, and we can take it as a near certainty that if he had been armed with a lance Robert would have died before even getting into swinging distance with that hammer.

He said, words don't win battles, he never said or implied that Rhaegar just had bad luck and not, that's not how lances works, what if Robert just moved the lance?? You're badly cross multiplying here.

 

 

I was just scrolling because i couldn't sleep but this posts seem pretty disingenous to me.

 

 

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Actually they aren't false. He squired WITH Arthur Dayne who is a member of the Kingsguard, not FOR. His master-art-arms was a brother of a KG (Willem Darry is Jonothor Darry's brother.) You are correct I did mistype when I said he won multiple tourneys. He merely placed second against Arthur Dayne in 276 when  both were teenagers, then beat Dayne in 277/8 where he took second to Barristan, and then beat them both at Harrenhal. So while not winning multiple, he's still won more than Robert. And you're presupposition that Rhaegar was only a very skill fighter while Robert was one of the best makes no sense. If we're being honest, from reputation alone Robert could never hit above top 8 below the 7KG. 

He never squired with Dayne, he squired with JonCon, Robert never was an skilled jouster but being a bad jouster doesn't mean being a worst warrior, for reputation only, Dayne and Barry B are better than Robert, i never seen nothing said if the other white cloacks, if we are basing too about Martin's word, only Dayne, Barry B and Jaime were above Robert, no one ever put the dragon stag below all Aerys seven in universe.

 

 

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Do you work at the Peach? Or maybe Chataya's? It seems like you're just getting more aggressive in your Robert shilling. I even mention that Martyn is a place holder for all five who fell, because three men who would have slain Robert at the Trident are dead at their feet. Martyn seemed the most plausible because his younger brother became master-at-arms of Winterfell, and his son was a decent knight. Looking at Rodrik's work, the men he's trained, and how he trained them shows someone who actually knows what he is doing.  Theon was one of the best archers in Westeros, Robb one of the best battle commanders, with nothing to suggest he was a bad fighter for a pubescent boy, Jon Snow is counted among the best in a non-canon work GRRM wrote. 

 

You're mixing a whole lot to make a point, Stannis is not a great warrior because he is Robert's brother and him being a grest teacher is not  the same about him being a great warrior.

Only Dayne is sure as hell that could kill Robert but that doesn't he would, Barry B was there as well and he was wounded before ever reaching the man.

And non canon works are just that, non canon work.

 

 

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The logic follows that the White Bull was stronger than Jaime, that we've all agreed Dayne was better than Robert; that Whent was better than Loras or Balon Swann, that Loras is a copy of Jaime at seventeen, and per their word they would have been able to kill Robert at the Trident or Jaime at KL. And someone at ToJ killed them. 

With respect but this doesn't make sense, this is not dragon ball, Whent was talking hypwe,  him saying he could kill Robert or make the difference there is like Rickard armoring himself to fight Barry B, they could be just trash talking and that would be just as effective, they could not even say those words and Ned just dreaming it.

 

 

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He never "defeated" Jon Connington, Jon merely says that he nearly killed him. Remembering back seventeen years, when everyone else says they never even met. He defeated Jon like Jaime defeated Robb in the Whispering Wood.  As far as we know from the circumstances he popped out of an brothel behind them and took them by surprise. Am I saying that Robert is a bad fight? No. Am I saying he's the god you're making him out to be? No. 

 

JonCon himself says he nearly killed him there, Harwin is an unreliable source, he has heard a tale amongst a hundred, you can't kill 6 men by surprise, when you've surprised one, the others will be ready for you.

He can't be god, there are others better than him.

 

 

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That doesn't even make sense. So Robert, per your flawed definition of what makes a better fighter, is better than 1. Barristan Selmy, 2. Jonothor Darry 3. Lewyn Martell and 4. Every single other person who happened to be on that battle field that day because why exactly? Because fate brought Rhaegar and Robert together with a sword and a hammer and not lances in their hands? Because if it had been lances Rhaegar would 100% have killed Robert since Robert has been regularly beaten in jousts. Robert took wounds at least twice during the war. Oberyn Martell with a spear beats Robert every time simply from that fact. That's what I mean by Robert lacking versatility. He muscles through and takes blows on his armor. Barristan killed three men with a dagger while wearing no armor fifteen years later, and then killed a man forty years younger without a helmet on. 

You're making this to be dragon ball apart from making up points, the rest well...

The idea that Robert was the best there makes o sense, Barry B was there but leaving the veast B aside we have no reason to believe there was a better warrior than Robert that day.

 

 

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This last point is for everyone that is saying "Robert killed Rhaegar so Robert must always be listed as better than Rhaegar" Ned. Stark. Killed. Arthur. Dayne. We don't know all of the details, we really don't know any of the details. We can't take GoT's horribly choreographed version of events with any credibility. Sure, Ned says that Dayne would have killed him if it weren't for Howland Reed. But that can mean anything, it could mean Reed warged into Dayne, it could mean he hamstrung him from behind, he tossed Ned a sword, he tripped Dayne with his (Reed's) own entrails, that he happened to bleed into his eye, that he pulled a Whispering Wood and caught Dawn in his gut for a few seconds. There are so many variables we don't know about the fight at ToJ same as there are many variables we don't know about the Trident. Robert was a great fighter, I'm not denying that. Robert was one of the best, I'm also not denying that. This is a list of the top 10. We're measuring in millimeters of difference in skill if not smaller.  

 

Ned himself pretty early tells us that Dayne would've killed if not for Reed, we have no reason to believe that wasn't a fair fight in the Trident, no one ever implied it wasn't. Yet you do  put him up there becauset he man was a good jouster.

Edited by frenin

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Lewyn woulda beat Lyn’s tail if not injured. 

How old was Andrik the Unsmiling?

Myles Toyne

Syrio is an option 

 

My list only top 4 in order

 

Dayne

Selmy

Robert

Rhaegar

Yohn Royce 

Oberyn

Jason Mallister 

 

Edited by One-eyed Misbehavin

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