The First Law Re-Read Volume II - rereads are a dish best served cold

[Rhom]

2 hours ago, Maithanet said:

I am about a third of the way through Red Country.  Enjoying it thus far.  Are the two kidnapped kids Logen's children or not?  I remember this is included in the book somewhere, but I seem to have missed it.  

They are not.  He was their step-father, but I think they also had a different father than Shy.

[Maithanet]

3 hours ago, Rhom said:

They are not.  He was their step-father, but I think they also had a different father than Shy.

That's what I remembered, but I was surprised I didn't come across that.  I must have missed it, I'm not usually a detail-oriented reader. 

[RedEyedGhost]

21 hours ago, A True Kaniggit said:

Still on the second chapter of The Heroes. 

I got distracted by my Wheel of Time reread. Just started The Gathering Storm, so I should be done with that mid-August. Then I can finish The Heroes and Red Country before the release date of A Little Hatred.

Everyone else either finished or on schedule?

Are we supposed to be reading Red Country now?  If so, I'm behind schedule.  Just cracked The Heroes this morning.  Should still finish before A Little Hatred is released.

[A True Kaniggit]

6 minutes ago, RedEyedGhost said:

Are we supposed to be reading Red Country now?  If so, I'm behind schedule.  Just cracked The Heroes this morning.  Should still finish before A Little Hatred is released.

If we were following the schedule set in February.

But honestly, the ranks broke months ago (I blame myself). Now everyone is just scattered all over the place, and people just need to finish before mid-September.

[HexMachina]

I’m finding the Heroes pretty rough going. Tbh i think its mostly that war stories just arent really my thing. However, i also find the characters less endearing than the other novels. Only Finree, Gorst and Calder really connect with me

[red snow]

Cosca is really holding the last third of BSC together for me. I'd forgotten how entertaining he was.

That and morveer unwittingly doing monza a favour

[HexMachina]

On 8/3/2019 at 4:14 PM, red snow said:

Cosca is really holding the last third of BSC together for me. I'd forgotten how entertaining he was.

That and morveer unwittingly doing monza a favour

Imo the entire cast of BSC, even the minor characters, are so vibrant and compelling as to make the novel work. 

[red snow]

7 hours ago, HelenaExMachina said:

Imo the entire cast of BSC, even the minor characters, are so vibrant and compelling as to make the novel work. 

They all have their moments to shine, that's for sure, but I'm finding Cosca is stealing the show in the last third. Duke Rogont was quite entertaining for a non POV character too. I guess it's partly because shivers and monza go into negative frames of mind while Cosca is on a positive resurgence. 

[SeanF]

1 hour ago, red snow said:

They all have their moments to shine, that's for sure, but I'm finding Cosca is stealing the show in the last third. Duke Rogont was quite entertaining for a non POV character too. I guess it's partly because shivers and monza go into negative frames of mind while Cosca is on a positive resurgence. 

I was pretty gob-smacked, the first time, when Rogont asked Monza for a golden shower.

[red snow]

45 minutes ago, SeanF said:

I was pretty gob-smacked, the first time, when Rogont asked Monza for a golden shower.

Somehow I'd forgotten that scene, so I was shocked anew on the re-read! He had a weird fixation with his aunty as well

[HexMachina]

1 hour ago, SeanF said:

I was pretty gob-smacked, the first time, when Rogont asked Monza for a golden shower.

Should not really have been too surprising, he was fairly open about his preferences for rough and dirty sex from the start (albeit not quite so...y'know. stuff like "I would have asked for more spit" etc.) 

And on the subject of "how did I not see beforehand"...I have no idea how I missed that Benna and Monza were lovers before Carlot confirmed it to Shivers. It's painfully obvious from the clues dropped throughout the novel.

[BigFatCoward]

2 hours ago, HelenaExMachina said:

 

And on the subject of "how did I not see beforehand"...I have no idea how I missed that Benna and Monza were lovers before Carlot confirmed it to Shivers. It's painfully obvious from the clues dropped throughout the novel.

Its not the first thing you want your mind to go to, unless you are fantasy author apparently, who all clearly love a bit of incest.

[SeanF]

27 minutes ago, BigFatCoward said:

Its not the first thing you want your mind to go to, unless you are fantasy author apparently, who all clearly love a bit of incest.

Post AGOT, incest has apparently become very popular as porn.

[The hairy bear]

Just finished my reread for Red Country. I think I've enjoyed more this second time. My thoughts:

Things I loved:

• I admire how Abercrombie managed to expand is world with each of the standalones, exploring new scenarios and adding more complexity to his world.
• The Western vibe is really well done. Except for the revolvers, it has all the common topics of the genre without feeling too forced: the duel, the caravan, the heist, the chase, the saloon fight, the remote town with its own rules, the gold fever, the blurry borders, the Indians,...
• The ending is relatively optimistic for Abercrombie's standards. Shy and Temple have as close as a happy ending as they could hope for. Even Lamb seems to be able to escape from his cycle of violence and revenge.
• The second and third parts (the fellowship and Crease) are my favorite parts. Joe makes a great job in creating very interesting settings with dozens of vivid characters in a very reduced space.

Things I disliked:

• I don't really buy the premise of the dragon people resorting to brutal murders and kidnappings to obtain children. It would be much easier to pick kids from orphanages, recruit second sons or young daughters from poor families, or even purchase them from Gurkhul slavers. Paying people to kidnap them and murder their families is not only unnecessarily cruel, but also very dumb. You may be able to indoctrinate most of them, but only one case where the Stockholm's syndrome fails can get you throat slit at night.
• Besides the needless cruelty, most of Waerdinur's decisions were really stupid: dealing with unreliable people like Caitniss, meeting with him and his thugs at Ashranc, killing Blacktoe for no real reason, paying with Imperial coins, sending all the warriors away and leave the Gate open, sending a raiding party to murder the mercenaries and keep the Gate open,...
• The amount of cameos from previous books is perhaps a little bit too much. I'm counting Lamb, Shivers, Cosca, Friendly, Eider, Glama Golden, Brint, Pike, Lorsen, Hedges, and Lord Ingesltad. It's not that they are not good additions or have no justification to be there, but the fact that there are so many of them stretches credibility. In particular, Lorsen's presence raises more problems than anything (he should be aware of Pyke's identity) and I think his role should have been filled by any other random inquisitor.

Errors?:

• In the original trilogy, the name of the magus didn't seem to be widely known. Logen had to ask Quai "who is this Bayaz?", the first time he was mentioned. Ferro, West, and many others didn't react at Yulwei's name. But in the Red Country, both Shy and Temple (separately) identify "Zacharus" as the name of one of the magi.
• The chronology of Lamb's arrival to Squaredeal seems a little messed up. He says that returning to his former self allowed him to "put an end to 10 years of lying", suggesting he arrived on 580 (RC takes place in 590). But then, he says "Last time I tried to stop Shy she was ten years old and it didn’t stick then". Since Shy is 24, she'd be 10 in year 576 (Logen was in Carelon in early 577, during the epilogue of LAOK).

Random thoughts:

• The multiple POVs chapters got us the view of practically every important player in Crease, Ashranc and the Fellowship except for Crying Rock. It's a pity, because I found her one of the characters who could have done with some more explanation: why did she leave her people? what does she find in Sweet? how does she feel about her contribution to the massacre of the Dragon People?
• Akosh and his 300 dragon warriors should play some significant role once they return from the North. I wonder if they could be capable of finishing the Kenedias' dragon.
• One thing that I'd have liked the book to explain is why the Dragon People and the Shanka fight each other when they are both creatures of Kenedias.
• The Mayor's church of dice occupies the ruins of some old temple, suggesting that the Old Empire had some kind of religion. I wonder if it's the same one that the Gurkish follow.
• Zacharus is an interesting player. With the Khalul's empire having suffered a severe defeat that caused the death of most of the eaters, and Bayaz's Union in a bad place after the devastation of Adua, the atrition in the North and the defeats in Styria, Zacharus may be able to challenge his old colleagues if he is able to restore the Old Empire to some degree of its former glory.

[Gaston de Foix]

23 minutes ago, The hairy bear said:

Just finished my reread for Red Country. I think I've enjoyed more this second time. My thoughts:

Random thoughts:

• Akosh and his 300 dragon warriors should play some significant role once they return from the North. I wonder if they could be capable of finishing the Kenedias' dragon.
• One thing that I'd have liked the book to explain is why the Dragon People and the Shanka fight each other when they are both creatures of Kenedias.
• Zacharus is an interesting player. With the Khalul's empire having suffered a severe defeat that caused the death of most of the eaters, and Bayaz's Union in a bad place after the devastation of Adua, the atrition in the North and the defeats in Styria, Zacharus may be able to challenge his old colleagues if he is able to restore the Old Empire to some degree of its former glory.

• I had the same thought. But the dragon was destroyed in the sacking no?
• I had understood Kanedias originally shaped the Shanka as a weapon but his death left them incapable of being controlled and free to breed far beyond his plans. 
• I like the reinvention of Radagast as a power-hungry Juvens-wannabe. 

Random thought of my own:

• why no Jaremiah? What happened to the Maker's apprentice?

[SeanF]

IMO, the Old Empire is finally becoming a major player in the world, after centuries of anarchy.

One odd loose end is why did the Dragon People let up slaughtering Cosca's mercenaries in the forest?  They seemed to have them at their mercy.

[HexMachina]

Hmm. Just giving some thought to Shivers in BSC. Lots of people both within the story and readers comment on how Monza changed him etc. Thinking about it some more I'm not sure that is really fair. Monza herself feels guilty about it too I know, but I'm inclined to think it is more like the situation with Logen in First Law - this was always Shivers, he was just pretending/lying to himself about his true nature.

Im just struggling to see what precisely Monza did to change him like that (though I understand why Monza feels so guilty over his eye)

[SeanF]

4 hours ago, HelenaExMachina said:

Hmm. Just giving some thought to Shivers in BSC. Lots of people both within the story and readers comment on how Monza changed him etc. Thinking about it some more I'm not sure that is really fair. Monza herself feels guilty about it too I know, but I'm inclined to think it is more like the situation with Logen in First Law - this was always Shivers, he was just pretending/lying to himself about his true nature.

Im just struggling to see what precisely Monza did to change him like that (though I understand why Monza feels so guilty over his eye)

I think she helped to propel him along the way to becoming one of the cruellest men in the North.  She offered him the chance to make a fortune continuing to kill for her, after the death of Gobba, and planned to murder him if he refused.

[HexMachina]

6 hours ago, SeanF said:

I think she helped to propel him along the way to becoming one of the cruellest men in the North.  She offered him the chance to make a fortune continuing to kill for her, after the death of Gobba, and planned to murder him if he refused.

He didnt know about the intent to kill him if he refused, and i think thats important. Monza made him an offer but the choices were all his

[RedEyedGhost]

2 hours ago, HelenaExMachina said:

He didnt know about the intent to kill him if he refused, and i think thats important. Monza made him an offer but the choices were all his

Yeah, he did.  He wasn't explicitly told that he would die if he didn't go along, but he did think about how that wouldn't have made it out of that warehouse if he hadn't agreed to join her.