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HelenaExMachina

The First Law Re-Read Volume II - rereads are a dish best served cold

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3 hours ago, HelenaExMachina said:

He didnt know about the intent to kill him if he refused, and i think thats important. Monza made him an offer but the choices were all his :dunno:

He strongly suspected he would have been killed if he said no.

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Posted (edited)

For clarity's sake I looked up the text.

"If Shivers was honest, he was more'n a bit feared of her. It was bad enough that he'd watched her break a man apart with a hammer and given every sign of enjoying it. But he'd had this creeping feeling afterwards, when they were bargaining, that she was on the point of stabbing him. "
 

So from his POV, he just had a feeling that she was gonna stab him.

He didn't know if saying yes or no would make her stab him, he just had a feeling she was about to.

Edited by A True Kaniggit

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10 hours ago, A True Kaniggit said:

For clarity's sake I looked up the text.

"If Shivers was honest, he was more'n a bit feared of her. It was bad enough that he'd watched her break a man apart with a hammer and given every sign of enjoying it. But he'd had this creeping feeling afterwards, when they were bargaining, that she was on the point of stabbing him. "
 

So from his POV, he just had a feeling that she was gonna stab him.

He didn't know if saying yes or no would make her stab him, he just had a feeling she was about to.

But if he had a feeling she might stab him depending on his answer, isn't it pretty obvious which answer she's looking for?  Is there any scenario where Monza would stab him for agreeing to join her?  

It seems safe to say that Monza was making an offer Shivers couldn't refuse, and Shivers understood the situation as such. 

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On 8/11/2019 at 1:20 PM, HelenaExMachina said:

Im just struggling to see what precisely Monza did to change him like that :dunno: (though I understand why Monza feels so guilty over his eye)

I think there are three things that lead Shivers to the dark path. One is losing the eye, for which Monza is only indirectly responsible. But the other two are Monza's rejection of him after he's disfigured (she even thinks to herself that she is not capable of holding his gaze) and discovering that she had been her brother's lover (and had used him as his substitute, giving Shiver's Benna's haircut and shirts).

I'd say she has plenty of reason to feel guilty about it.

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I feel like Shivers had just taken enough shit which is entirely understandable and made worse by fact he blames himself for traveling there with intentions of being better. He just snapped. There's still a tiny shred of me wonders whether there was a vengeful spirit found him at his lowest point but I'm fine with him just snapping.

Finished best served cold and I'd forgotten monza was pregnant at the end. Another character to look out for in the new trilogy!

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Posted (edited)
17 hours ago, A True Kaniggit said:

For clarity's sake I looked up the text.

"If Shivers was honest, he was more'n a bit feared of her. It was bad enough that he'd watched her break a man apart with a hammer and given every sign of enjoying it. But he'd had this creeping feeling afterwards, when they were bargaining, that she was on the point of stabbing him. "
 

So from his POV, he just had a feeling that she was gonna stab him.

He didn't know if saying yes or no would make her stab him, he just had a feeling she was about to.

He’s what? Over 6 ft, a warrior by trade, always has a blade on his person? While Monza at this juncture  is still heavily recuperating from her injuries to the point where walking is an ordeal. The biggest ordeal would possibly have been dealing with friendly but if the man truly wanted to leave I don’t see him allowing the fear of danger stopping him-especially when following Monza has already shown to be deadly already. Even after leaving the Warehouse the man could’ve left plenty of times before they even met up with Morveer. Like, while the two were sleeping, or he could walk away after saying he had to take a shit. Monza’s suicide Squad(that’s what I’m calling them) was not a large party especially initially. If he truly wanted to leave he had plenty of opportunities to do so. He didn’t.

It doesn’t seem to take that much coaxing from Monza to stay after she indirectly murdered dozens of civilians at the bank.

Sure he whines he’d leave but if he was truly struck by the events personally he would be compelled to stay over some teary eyed proclamations of remorse by Monza.

On 8/11/2019 at 4:20 AM, HelenaExMachina said:

Hmm. Just giving some thought to Shivers in BSC. Lots of people both within the story and readers comment on how Monza changed him etc. Thinking about it some more I'm not sure that is really fair. Monza herself feels guilty about it too I know, but I'm inclined to think it is more like the situation with Logen in First Law - this was always Shivers, he was just pretending/lying to himself about his true nature.

Im just struggling to see what precisely Monza did to change him like that :dunno: (though I understand why Monza feels so guilty over his eye)

Imo Monza changed Shivers to the same degree Bethod changed Logen. Which is to say really not much. What Monza, and Bethod mostly did was give an environment to which they’re servants could let out their true selves and could prosper free of the societal inhibition that grounded their more unsavory tendencies. Shivers and Logen weren’t good men corrupted by their evil bosses. 

Let’s not forget Logan as a teenager tried to murder his father, and literally did murder one of his friends in one of his fits of rage. By the time he met Bethod he was already a time bomb waiting to go off-it’s just that he hid it better. 

Nor that Shivers desired to kill Logan because that’s what society expected him to do. 

I can’t help but draw a parallel between how Shivers acted to Monza and how Logen acted with Bayazz. No matter how uncomfortable each northern professes to be with their leaders’ actions they never opt to simply leave even when they’re in a situation to do so. They cry they don’t desire to see others hurt needlessly but keep/place themselves in a position to where violent actions could be justified in some form.

 

Also, I have to wonder what teenage Logan thought in his head when he went into one of famous his homicidal rages. When he goes totally ballistic(I.e the b9 mode), we see him refer to himself as the bloody-nine. So did teenage  Logen refer to himself as Logen?

4 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

I think there are three things that lead Shivers to the dark path. One is losing the eye, for which Monza is only indirectly responsible. But the other two are Monza's rejection of him after he's disfigured (she even thinks to herself that she is not capable of holding his gaze) and discovering that she had been her brother's lover (and had used him as his substitute, giving Shiver's Benna's haircut and shirts).

I'd say she has plenty of reason to feel guilty about it.

I don’t think he went that a slope after his disfigurement. Remember he actually questioned Monza’s decision not to murder that entire family.  

Edited by Varysblackfyre321

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I often feel it's very intentional the similarities between logen and shivers. It used to fuel my speculation shivers was possessed too (or is just as crazy as logen).

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14 hours ago, Maithanet said:

But if he had a feeling she might stab him depending on his answer, isn't it pretty obvious which answer she's looking for?  Is there any scenario where Monza would stab him for agreeing to join her?  

It seems safe to say that Monza was making an offer Shivers couldn't refuse, and Shivers understood the situation as such. 

Maybe?

We, the reader, have the benefit of knowing from Monza's POV that she was actually going to stab him if he rejected her offer. What's obvious to us may not be obvious to Shivers.

Especially since "if he said no" could've been added at the end of his thought at the cost of only 4 words if that is what he believed.

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I don't think Monza turned Shivers evil, so much as sped him on his way

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13 hours ago, red snow said:

I often feel it's very intentional the similarities between logen and shivers. It used to fuel my speculation shivers was possessed too (or is just as crazy as logen).

I honestly always disliked the ideas Logen’s B9 state being just him acting crazy or supernaturally possessed. I think it’s more a state of euphoria brought on by an individual willingness to throw away anything-morales, feelings, a sense preservation, for the love of carnage.

6 hours ago, A True Kaniggit said:

Maybe?

We, the reader, have the benefit of knowing from Monza's POV that she was actually going to stab him if he rejected her offer. What's obvious to us may not be obvious to Shivers.

Especially since "if he said no" could've been added at the end of his thought at the cost of only 4 words if that is what he believed.

And if she actually tried, could she actually succeed? I genuinely don’t it’s likely.

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4 hours ago, SeanF said:

I don't think Monza turned Shivers evil, so much as sped him on his way

I think this is the best take. I'd also say that shivers rubbed off on Monza in that he brought out the better side of her as all she had was revenge and embracing her dark reputation (even though it was often Benna). The way monza behaves in the final chapter is like that of a ruler who cares and the mercy she shows the rebels and Shivers suggests she has changed. 

I finished BSC last night. It is an excellent stand alone with great characters who all get a spotlight. I think it did dip a little in the last part but that's largely because the preceding story was so entertaining and fast paced.

Monza isn't my favourite character, mainly by merit of being surrounded by such a great cast, but i must admit I'm really interested in seeing how her story has evolved as i think her story as a ruler could be a lot more entertaining than her being obsessed with revenge. I guess all the other characters are followed up in the heroes and red country (or are dead) while monza doesn't factor in. 

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1 hour ago, red snow said:

I think this is the best take. I'd also say that shivers rubbed off on Monza in that he brought out the better side of her as all she had was revenge and embracing her dark reputation (even though it was often Benna). The way monza behaves in the final chapter is like that of a ruler who cares and the mercy she shows the rebels and Shivers suggests she has changed. 

I finished BSC last night. It is an excellent stand alone with great characters who all get a spotlight. I think it did dip a little in the last part but that's largely because the preceding story was so entertaining and fast paced.

Monza isn't my favourite character, mainly by merit of being surrounded by such a great cast, but i must admit I'm really interested in seeing how her story has evolved as i think her story as a ruler could be a lot more entertaining than her being obsessed with revenge. I guess all the other characters are followed up in the heroes and red country (or are dead) while monza doesn't factor in. 

There's a brief cameo in Sharp Ends, where she crowns her son King of Styria (he is either Shivers' or Rogont's child).

She has just defeated the Union, and appears highly competent.  Her style of government  is the iron fist in the iron glove.

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7 hours ago, red snow said:

I think this is the best take. I'd also say that shivers rubbed off on Monza in that he brought out the better side of her as all she had was revenge and embracing her dark reputation (even though it was often Benna). The way monza behaves in the final chapter is like that of a ruler who cares and the mercy she shows the rebels and Shivers suggests she has changed. 

I finished BSC last night. It is an excellent stand alone with great characters who all get a spotlight. I think it did dip a little in the last part but that's largely because the preceding story was so entertaining and fast paced.

Monza isn't my favourite character, mainly by merit of being surrounded by such a great cast, but i must admit I'm really interested in seeing how her story has evolved as i think her story as a ruler could be a lot more entertaining than her being obsessed with revenge. I guess all the other characters are followed up in the heroes and red country (or are dead) while monza doesn't factor in. 

Not sure we can put that change up to shivers though. If Cosca is to be believed, and indeed Monza’s own recollections tend to bear this out, she was always a better person than she gave herself credit for. She always acted the tough woman because had to, when really she would have loved to have been otherwise. Sure she goes very dark during the novel but then being betrayed, seeing the one thing you care about most in the world taken from you and then being thrown off a mountain will do that to you.

 

Related note, i do love the gradual revelations of Monza’s past through her memories as it sets up nicely for the reveal that Benna had been plotting against Orso after all

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56 minutes ago, HelenaExMachina said:

Not sure we can put that change up to shivers though. If Cosca is to be believed, and indeed Monza’s own recollections tend to bear this out, she was always a better person than she gave herself credit for. She always acted the tough woman because had to, when really she would have loved to have been otherwise. Sure she goes very dark during the novel but then being betrayed, seeing the one thing you care about most in the world taken from you and then being thrown off a mountain will do that to you.

 

Related note, i do love the gradual revelations of Monza’s past through her memories as it sets up nicely for the reveal that Benna had been plotting against Orso after all

Both definitely had to have it in them to be nudged/influenced. I guess having hideously painful experiences sent both of them off the deep end and eventually both of them appear to make it out the other side. Causing the collapse of nations/kingdoms in the process.

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11 hours ago, HelenaExMachina said:

Not sure we can put that change up to shivers though. If Cosca is to be believed, and indeed Monza’s own recollections tend to bear this out, she was always a better person than she gave herself credit for. She always acted the tough woman because had to, when really she would have loved to have been otherwise. Sure she goes very dark during the novel but then being betrayed, seeing the one thing you care about most in the world taken from you and then being thrown off a mountain will do that to you.

 

Related note, i do love the gradual revelations of Monza’s past through her memories as it sets up nicely for the reveal that Benna had been plotting against Orso after all

She pretended to be worse than she was, for the reasons you give.  She was never the monster that the world thought she was, but she was always ruthless and selfish.  Most of what Ganmark told her during their duel was correct.

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Just read the POV chain of death chapter in the heroes. It's as good as i remembered and it recalled the dread i felt when Gorst became the POV as i figured there was a strong chance he'd die. Gorst is great with his hateful internal monologue and how he doesn't say much because of his voice. I wonder hiw he would have been with a normal voice.

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7 hours ago, red snow said:

Just read the POV chain of death chapter in the heroes. It's as good as i remembered and it recalled the dread i felt when Gorst became the POV as i figured there was a strong chance he'd die. Gorst is great with his hateful internal monologue and how he doesn't say much because of his voice. I wonder hiw he would have been with a normal voice.

Gorst would be a tricky one to cast and depict in a television series i think, his character isnt much at all without his viewpoint.

Similar applies to Friendly

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9 hours ago, HelenaExMachina said:

Gorst would be a tricky one to cast and depict in a television series i think, his character isnt much at all without his viewpoint.

Similar applies to Friendly

They are particularly tricky. I think glokta would also be hard given he's such a key character and a lot of his personality comes from his thoughts (but not to the extreme of Gorst and friendly). I think they'd have to do the "Disney villain side-kick" trick and have him be a lot more open to his practicals. Although they'd have to change the relationship as it would be out of character for him to trust one of them as they are in the books.

Logen, Ferro and Jezal would be fine though particularly the last two as what you see tends to be them anyhow, Ferro is no less angry in her thoughts and Jezal no less selfish and naïve.

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I'm about 3/4ths of the way through Red Country, and they just had the big battle with the Dragon People.  I really don't remember much else that happens in the final 100 pages, aside from Cosca getting killed.  I don't know if that means I'm in for a treat or if the novel just loses momentum.  We shall see. 

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