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HelenaExMachina

The First Law Re-Read Volume II - rereads are a dish best served cold

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5 hours ago, Yohn said:

Excellent characters, morally very ambiguous, lots of political intrigue, epic battle scenes. What's not to like?

I’m not sure i’d call the characters morally ambiguous. They are all pretty terrible people who do terrible things. Incredibly entertaining though

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8 minutes ago, HelenaExMachina said:

I’m not sure i’d call the characters morally ambiguous. They are all pretty terrible people who do terrible things. Incredibly entertaining though

I'd agree they all do terrible things, but that doesn't necessarily make them terrible people, but certainly not admirable either.

I'd argue that the only truly terrible people in the series are Bayaz and Khalul. Anything the other characters have done pales into insignificance when put beside those two.

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“Noble beast, the goat.”

:lol: 

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Finished up BSC around lunchtime today.  Still a great read.  Wife and I are headed from the States to Hamburg, Germany in a week... so I wanted to have the book done before that flight because I didn't want to finish it and have to lug it around all week.  Think I'm going to read a few stories from Sharp Ends this week and then take The Heroes with me on the flight.

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On 5/22/2019 at 2:02 PM, Yohn said:

I'd agree they all do terrible things, but that doesn't necessarily make them terrible people, but certainly not admirable either.

I'd argue that the only truly terrible people in the series are Bayaz and Khalul. Anything the other characters have done pales into insignificance when put beside those two.

Every prominent character in BSC is terrible.  And, the book manages to be hilarious, nevertheless.

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1 hour ago, SeanF said:

Every prominent character in BSC is terrible.  And, the book manages to be hilarious, nevertheless.

Agreed.  I chuckled openly at Cosca and Morveer especially.

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19 minutes ago, Rhom said:

Agreed.  I chuckled openly at Cosca and Morveer especially.

I love Morveer. Steven Pacey’s voice just makes him even funnier.

They are all a bunch of bastards but the story is so entertaining

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Just finished Last Argument of Kings.  So how did Logen get the Maker's sword back?  At the end it's at Black Dow's feet, and he turns and runs to jump out the window in the other direction...  Is that covered in Sharp Ends?  I definitely need to read that when I'm done with all the books.

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37 minutes ago, RedEyedGhost said:

Just finished Last Argument of Kings.  So how did Logen get the Maker's sword back?  At the end it's at Black Dow's feet, and he turns and runs to jump out the window in the other direction...  Is that covered in Sharp Ends?  I definitely need to read that when I'm done with all the books.

He took another one of the Maker's swords off Waerdinur in Red Country. 

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4 hours ago, Consigliere said:

He took another one of the Maker's swords off Waerdinur in Red Country. 

Ah yes, now I remember that, and him saying, "I used to have a sword just like this."  I was thinking it was the same sword.

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1 hour ago, RedEyedGhost said:

Ah yes, now I remember that, and him saying, "I used to have a sword just like this."  I was thinking it was the same sword.

Shivers has his old sword, which he took from Dow. 

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On 23 May 2019 at 10:34 PM, HelenaExMachina said:

I love Morveer. Steven Pacey’s voice just makes him even funnier.

They are all a bunch of bastards but the story is so entertaining

I always chuckle at Carlot's description of Monza "thief, blackmailer, murderer of innocents, and keen practiser of incest" and she's the heroine!

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Posted (edited)
On 5/22/2019 at 6:43 AM, HelenaExMachina said:

I’m not sure i’d call the characters morally ambiguous. They are all pretty terrible people who do terrible things. Incredibly entertaining though

Meh. I would say a fair share are just people who do terrible and good things. You know normal people. Plenty evil or good could be done by a totally normal person.

Monza risks her life multiple times to protect the innocent and weak. For no real benefit for herself. Hell she doesn’t even try to payback the family that obviously betrayed her and lead her and Shivers to be tortured. She also took care of her men, and tried her best not to get them killed. And she has probably given the citizenry a bigger voice than they’d be given if any of the Duke’s had become king. And she seems to genuinely want Styria to not be party to the endless war being waged between Bayaaz and the prophet.

Vitari does seem to be a loving parent.

Faithful seemed to genuinely want to be honorable at least by mercenary standards.

Friendly just seems more like a guy with some legit mental health issues. 

Edited by Varysblackfyre321

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Our heroes have just arrived in Crease in Red Country, and Shy sees a couple of the Fellowship speaking with Zacharus. What's he up to in the Far Country then?

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3 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Meh. I would say a fair share are just people who do terrible and good things. You know normal people. Plenty evil or good could be done by a totally normal person.

Monza risks her life multiple times to protect the innocent and weak. For no real benefit for herself. Hell she doesn’t even try to payback the family that obviously betrayed her and lead her and Shivers to be tortured. She also took care of her men, and tried her best not to get them killed. And she has probably given the citizenry a bigger voice than they’d be given if any of the Duke’s had become king. And she seems to genuinely want Styria to not be party to the endless war being waged between Bayaaz and the prophet.

Vitari does seem to be a loving parent.

Faithful seemed to genuinely want to be honorable at least by mercenary standards.

Friendly just seems more like a guy with some legit mental health issues. 

Monza does kill dozens, maybe hundreds, of innocent people in her quest for revenge on Orso.  Ganmark (who of course is no better) summed her up pretty well during the course of their final duel.  She also employs torturers, which leads to...…….

Vitari, who is a professional torturer.  Yes, she's a single mother with three boys, juggling her work-life balance.  It's just that the work side is totally appalling.  She does have limits though.  "I used to torture people for a living, but even I was never heartless enough to sing to them."

Friendly just enjoys killing people.

 

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Posted (edited)
49 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Monza does kill dozens, maybe hundreds, of innocent people in her quest for revenge on Orso.

I believe you’re referring to the banking incident? In her defense, she did not think   Morveer would poison more people  than the target. 

Though still she’s not entirely blameless. She’s the one who enlisted him after all and gave him the impression so long as the targets are eliminated anything she wouldn’t care about the methods the poisoner uses.

49 minutes ago, SeanF said:

She also employs torturers, which leads to...…….

To which she doesn’t use to actually torture anyone. Well in the book at least. Monza does torture Gobba her would-be rapist, and one of the men who killed her brother. She takes no real satisfaction from it. If anything it reminded her too much her own sorry state for when she was injured. To be clear I’m not trying to sanitize her.She does terrible and good things.

But there is more nuance to her than just “Terrible person who does terrible things” She’s in-fact has done a lot of really good things-much of which could have gotten her killed and/or worse and for I would say noble reasons. 

49 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Vitari, who is a professional torturer.  Yes, she's a single mother with three boys, juggling her work-life balance.  It's just that the work side is totally appalling.  

Yes. Not really disproving my point here. 

49 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Friendly just enjoys killing people.

 

Not my impression at all.  He kills out of anger, because he was ordered to, sure but never just for fun’s sake.  He enjoys, order, and rigidity above all.  The crimes he does commit when he isn’t working for someone seem largely in part due to wanting to go back to prison. 

Edited by Varysblackfyre321

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3 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

I believe you’re referring to the banking incident? In her defense, she did think/intend  Morveer would poison more than the target. But she did help killed thousands under Orso’s employ.

 

To which she doesn’t use to actually torture anyone. Well in the book at least. Monza does torture Gobba her would-be rapist, and one of the men who killed her brother. She takes no real satisfaction from it. If anything it reminded her too much her own sorry state for when she was injured. To be clear I’m not trying to sanitize her.She does terrible and good things.

But there is more nuance to her than just “Terrible person who does terrible things” She’s in-fact has done a lot of really good things-much of which could have gotten her killed and/or worse and for I would say noble reasons. 

Yes. Not really disproving my point here. 

Not my impression at all.  He kills out of anger, because he was ordered to, sure but never just for fun’s sake.  He enjoys, order, and rigidity above all.  The crimes he does commit when he isn’t working for someone seem largely in part due to wanting to go back to prison. 

All three of them are highly entertaining.  But, they are awful people.

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Posted (edited)

Very, very excited for A Little Hatred. Abercrombie is in my Top 5 favorite authors. And, I just love th humor he injects into his novels. 

Edited by Cpl. Tunny

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7 hours ago, SeanF said:

All three of them are highly entertaining.  But, they are awful people.

This doesn’t really address what I actually said. It merely restate the position of Helena more or less with no further elaboration on it’s premise. What do you think makes them awful people specifically? If it’s actions alone, they’ve plenty of good and bad to show for it. With friendly I just see something cognitively wrong with him more than anything. Honestly, I don’t think many people would stand in front of dozens of greedy murderers, rapists, and brutes alone, just to save some children that had no connection them from slavery. 

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So what’s the consensus of those just finishing LAoK, Lord Marshall West:  Dead or Alive in the new trilogy?

Obviously he has radiation poisoning when last we see him, but he didn’t die on screen.  Has he lived a miserable existence for the last twenty years?  Or did he die?

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