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nyser1

The Tower of Joy

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Posted (edited)

People go through really complicated lengths to explain why didn't Rhaegar tell what was happening to avoid the war.

1- He believes his son with Lyanna is key to a prophecy that, seemingly, relates to saving Westeros/the world/something really important.

2- His father is obviously going mad, and has burned Starks alive.

3- If he is to die, the child still needs to be protected, even from his own mad father, and in fact, from anyone.

If Rhaegar dies and his children are dead and Aerys is dead, the child is the king, and they are the king's guard. Lyanna is the queen. It's their duty. We don't know if they knew Rhaegar was dead at that point. We don't know if they could risk carrying Lyanna elsewhere in the state she was in. But it all pretty much makes a lot of sense, be it Rhaegar hiding his marriage to Lyanna or her being at the tower: it's not a matter for others to know about, not yet, it's to save the world.

Edited by NonoNono

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1 hour ago, NonoNono said:

We don't know if they knew Rhaegar was dead at that point. 

Their responses to Ned indicate they knew about the Trident and Aerys' murder, so if they most likely knew that Rhaegar was dead, as well.

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5 hours ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

You're forgetting these parts (the opening and closing sentences of the dream description):

"He dreamt an old dream, of three knights in white cloaks, and a tower long fallen, and Lyanna in her bed of blood."

"He did not think it omened well that he should dream that dream again after so many years."

 

Not to mention that he was perfectly lucid when he woke up.

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Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

Their responses to Ned indicate they knew about the Trident and Aerys' murder, so if they most likely knew that Rhaegar was dead, as well.

Even if they knew, the boy is the future king, the mother is the queen, they are doing their duty and cannot risk going away now with her in the state she is in. They don't tell Ned, because they are supposed to protect the child. Why tell Ned? He's not their friend, not part of the king's guard, and fought against Rhaegar. For all we know, no one should even know the son exists, and even the marriage was secret. It makes sense.

Edited by NonoNono

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2 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Their responses to Ned indicate they knew about the Trident and Aerys' murder, so if they most likely knew that Rhaegar was dead, as well.

And they still remained where they were. Yes, Lyanna about to give birth puts her in a delicate situation. However, that did not stop Rhaella from being transported from KL.

If Ned was able to find out where they were (in Dorne) then clearly someone was giving off intel. Perhaps it was a good time to travel to a different location.

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40 minutes ago, nyser1 said:

And they still remained where they were. Yes, Lyanna about to give birth puts her in a delicate situation. However, that did not stop Rhaella from being transported from KL.

Rhaella was at the opposite end of her pregnancy, probably didn't even know she was pregnant yet. So her moving to Dragonstone is no argument for them moving Lyanna so late in her pregnancy.
Also, each pregnancy and each woman/situation is different. Lyanna was a very very young woman with her first pregnancy. Its more likely she would have trouble with it, and her with much more limited support and resources at the time, than the much older and more experienced Rhaella would have with the full resources of the crown behind her.

What is really interesting is that the three KG didn't split up and send one of their number at least to Viserys at Dragonstone, who had no KG protection at all. So its seems that despite knowing about the Trident and the Sack, they don't see Viserys as their new King, since nothing they were doing could be so important that it required all three being there while their new child King remained utterly unprotected.

40 minutes ago, nyser1 said:

If Ned was able to find out where they were (in Dorne) then clearly someone was giving off intel. Perhaps it was a good time to travel to a different location.

Hindsight is 20/20. If they were hiding, then their best hope is to stay hiding for now, rather than move about with Lyanna in such a precarious state. That hope failed the moment Ned and his crew rode into view, but until that actually happened, they couldn't know they were undone.

And with Ned bringing such a small crew, they were given back a sliver of hope. With Ned bringing such a small crew its likely that is all he has with him, and if they kill him and all his crew, it may be months before anyone else comes, giving them time for Lyanna to improve and them to relocate. 

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8 hours ago, NonoNono said:

Even if they knew, the boy is the future king, the mother is the queen, they are doing their duty and cannot risk going away now with her in the state she is in. They don't tell Ned, because they are supposed to protect the child. Why tell Ned? He's not their friend, not part of the king's guard, and fought against Rhaegar. For all we know, no one should even know the son exists, and even the marriage was secret. It makes sense.

You're preaching to the choir :-)

6 hours ago, nyser1 said:

And they still remained where they were. Yes, Lyanna about to give birth puts her in a delicate situation. However, that did not stop Rhaella from being transported from KL.

As @corbon said, Rhaella was only pregnant for a short time, perhaps even didn't know herself yet. Not a problem being transported. Plus, she travelled on a ship. No ships around the ToJ.

6 hours ago, nyser1 said:

If Ned was able to find out where they were (in Dorne) then clearly someone was giving off intel. Perhaps it was a good time to travel to a different location.

And how would they know that someone had spilled the beans, until Ned turned up? Doing so at the moment when they saw him coming would have been a wee bit too late. :-)

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On 4/7/2019 at 9:16 AM, Ygrain said:

That is, as far as we know, true only about Hightower, and we know it only from that one instance when he chastises Jaime.

Darry too balked when Jaime insinuated they should intervene when Aerys raped Rhaella and put Jaime - again - in his place when he wanted to go to the Trident. Most like all of them shared similar opinions. Even after years Barristan wonders how much "blood is in his hands" by following orders, which might indicate that even Barristan committed some crimes by following Aerys orders.

On 4/7/2019 at 9:16 AM, Ygrain said:

If they are referring to something else, it doesn't make sense for them to emphasize their KG status in practically every statement, though.

Indeed. But at the same time, their KG oaths do not explain why they - the most dutiful KGs ever - were there, as many have pointed out. Rhaegar orders should not have been enough. Of course Rhaegar never contemplated defeat, but in that case why these three KGs stayed behind at the ToJ and not only one and a score of guardmen?

 

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11 hours ago, nyser1 said:

 

If Ned was able to find out where they were (in Dorne) then clearly someone was giving off intel. Perhaps it was a good time to travel to a different location.

From the dialogue, it seems to me he was somewhat surprised to find them there of all possible places where they should have been.

 

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1 hour ago, rotting sea cow said:

Darry too balked when Jaime insinuated they should intervene when Aerys raped Rhaella and put Jaime - again - in his place when he wanted to go to the Trident. Most like all of them shared similar opinions. Even after years Barristan wonders how much "blood is in his hands" by following orders, which might indicate that even Barristan committed some crimes by following Aerys orders.

Darry was not at ToJ, though. And Arthur Dayne being sad when saying "We all swore oaths" might indicate that he may not have been entirely happy with follorwing orders to the letter.

1 hour ago, rotting sea cow said:

Indeed. But at the same time, their KG oaths do not explain why they - the most dutiful KGs ever - were there, as many have pointed out. Rhaegar orders should not have been enough. Of course Rhaegar never contemplated defeat, but in that case why these three KGs stayed behind at the ToJ and not only one and a score of guardmen?

But this was adressed by GRRM himself - if Rhaegar gave them an order, they would have to obey. And at the point when Rhaegar was leaving for KL, there were still four more KG to fulfill their duty to Aerys. The fun point begins when Viserys and Rhaella remain the only known surviving Targaryens and have no more KG at their disposal, yet the ToJ trio seemingly prioritize RHaegar's order over going to the guy who supposedly succeeded Aerys, and they insist that staying at ToJ is perfectly alright for a KG. Now, if Jon is Rhaegar's legitimate son and they either don't know about Aerys' choice of successor or don't consider his choice valid, there is no conflict - Jon is their rightful heir and they are protecting him.

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2 hours ago, rotting sea cow said:

Darry too balked when Jaime insinuated they should intervene when Aerys raped Rhaella and put Jaime - again - in his place when he wanted to go to the Trident. Most like all of them shared similar opinions. Even after years Barristan wonders how much "blood is in his hands" by following orders, which might indicate that even Barristan committed some crimes by following Aerys orders.

Indeed. But at the same time, their KG oaths do not explain why they - the most dutiful KGs ever - were there, as many have pointed out. Rhaegar orders should not have been enough. Of course Rhaegar never contemplated defeat, but in that case why these three KGs stayed behind at the ToJ and not only one and a score of guardmen?

 

Because no one must know about the child, so he leaves a handful of trusted king’s guard. Regular foot soldiers would be risky.

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23 hours ago, Megorova said:

I'm not arguing about whose child Jon is. To me it's obvious, that his parents are Rhaegar and Lyanna. Though Jon, most likely, was born at Starfall, because, in my opinion, that's were Rhaegar brought Lyanna, after he kidnapped her. And that's where they were staying all that time, while they were missing. That's from where Rhaegar returned to King's Landing, prior going to Trident.

So why did Rhaegar take a newborn and a sick bleeding new mom and travel through the mountains from Dorne to the ToJ?  

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On 4/5/2019 at 2:26 PM, nyser1 said:

If Rhaegar is dead and Aerys is dead, what do you believe was the point of the fight here? Why did the Kingsguard not tell Ned the truth instead of fighting to the death?

What truth were the Kingsguard supposed to tell one of the commanding generals of the rebellion?

Let me say I think your first question it the whole point for the reader. Martin has constructed a dream that is meant to convey in very vivid terms the struggles Ned goes through to understand the answers to that question. So if the reader doesn't come away wanting to know the same answers that Ned is seeking, as you are asking, then that reader has missed the whole point.

Now, I've written tons of posts on this topic, and if anyone wants to know my thinking on it I've four posts in my signature that go into the topic, with a focus on the impact of Aerys's declaring Viserys his heir after the Trident and its impact on understanding Hightower, Dayne, and Whent's motives. What I'd like to read is your thoughts on the subject and why you think so?

 

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17 hours ago, nyser1 said:

And they still remained where they were. Yes, Lyanna about to give birth puts her in a delicate situation. However, that did not stop Rhaella from being transported from KL.

 

16 hours ago, corbon said:

Rhaella was at the opposite end of her pregnancy, probably didn't even know she was pregnant yet. So her moving to Dragonstone is no argument for them moving Lyanna so late in her pregnancy.

@corbon is almost certainly right that Rhaella is in the first month or so of her pregnancy. We know from Dany's account that "she had been born  on Dragonstone nine moons after their flight, while a raging summer storm threatened to rip the island fastness apart. (AGoT 35) bold emphasis added. So we know that at most Rhaella might have noted that her monthly cycle was a little late, not that she was pregnant. Hardly a comparison with a woman who is in her last months of pregnancy.

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On 4/5/2019 at 4:26 PM, nyser1 said:

If Rhaegar is dead and Aerys is dead, what do you believe was the point of the fight here? Why did the Kingsguard not tell Ned the truth instead of fighting to the death?

As others have already reminded you, this is a dream we're talking about. Not a memory, although I'm sure there elements from Ned's real life in there, because Ned does compare the dream to "as in life". And GRRM says we're not to trust fever dreams as they are not literal, so what parts are true and which are fanciful?

IMO Ned's dream is highly symbolic, but I think it's important to recall the events that happened prior to the dream. He was attacked by Jaime and his men as he was coming out of Chataya's brothel. He'd just seen Robert's bastard, and Jaime was upset that Catelyn had taken his brother Tyrion as hostage. All of the men that had come with Ned, died, and Ned's leg is broken when his horse falls on him. Pycelle treats Ned's injury - I imagine a little milk of the poppy was involved, and Ned is later visited by Robert who pardons him. But backing up a bit to when Ned was attacked and his horse fell on him - his last lucid vision was of the Red Keep walls which appeared to turn red with blood right before he passes out, so I believe the tower of joy wasn't some isolated tower in the Prince's Pass, but a nickname for Maegor's Holdfast inside the Red Keep. The three Kingsguard were guarding Elia and her children during the Sack of Kings Landing. I have a full essay written up here: Maegor's Holdfast - the real tower of joy.

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The 3 Kingsguard were loyal to Rhaegar, which is why they stayed with Lyanna, who is pregnant with his child on his orders.  After Rheagar is killed, they aren't aware that Aerys names Viserys his heir, so when Kings Landing is sacked and Aerys and Aegon are killed, they naturally believe Jon is their new king and will fight to protect him from Robert's men.  They cannot assume that Ned will do the right thing and protect his nephew, that is their job.  And at this point they chose to die with honor rather than bend the knee.

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10 minutes ago, Chris Mormont said:

The 3 Kingsguard were loyal to Rhaegar,

The three Kingsguard belonged and were loyal to Aerys, so if they were absent from his presence, then they were following Aerys orders.

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3 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

As others have already reminded you, this is a dream we're talking about. Not a memory, although I'm sure there elements from Ned's real life in there, because Ned does compare the dream to "as in life". And GRRM says we're not to trust fever dreams as they are not literal, so what parts are true and which are fanciful?

As proponents of this point of view ignore, this is not just a fever dream. 

Its an OLD dream. Its a dream Ned recognises immediately and knows intimately before before he's even dreamt it. As it starts, he immediately recognises this old dream and names it - this is a dream he's had many times before - when he wasn't feverish.

Quote

He dreamt an old dream, of three knights in white cloaks, and a tower long fallen, and Lyanna in her bed of blood.

We don't even get to see Lyanna in the dream (we get to hear her scream, but that might not be part of the original old dream as its clearly in the messed-up (feverish?) unrealistic part of the dream and her calling him is actually Vayon Poole trying to wake him), but we know this dream is about her - indeed, primarily about her above all else, as the other references in his description are much less meaningful or emotional, plus apparently in literary tradition the third/last theme is the important one.

Its also notable that the dream several times references 'in the dream as it had been in life'. Its a much memory as dream, I believe.

There are a few fantastical elements in it towards the end (and right at the beginning as it 'comes into view' so to speak - shadows and wraiths), and I personally think GRRM's 'don't trust a fever dream' comment is an oblique reference to these, as well as trying to protect his work from too close a scrutiny that might reveal things he doesn't want revealed just yet.

2 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

The three Kingsguard belonged and were loyal to Aerys, so if they were absent from his presence, then they were following Aerys orders.

Only in the abstract. Rhaegar can give them orders, and even if they were loyal to Aerys, they'd still have to follow Rhaegar's orders so long as they didn't conflict with the other parts of their oath. It seems this is how Dayne and Whent were there - assigned by Aerys as Rhaegar's guards, assigned by Rhaegar to be Lyanna's guards.
Hightower we know was assigned by Aerys to find Rhaegar and get him to return to KL - which he did. If Rhaegar refused to go back unless Hightower stayed, then Hightower would need to stay as part of his mission from Aerys.

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3 hours ago, corbon said:

Hightower we know was assigned by Aerys to find Rhaegar and get him to return to KL - which he did. If Rhaegar refused to go back unless Hightower stayed, then Hightower would need to stay as part of his mission from Aerys.

People frequently say this, but I’ve never seen text that supports this idea. It would be helpful if you could supply it.

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57 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

People frequently say this, but I’ve never seen text that supports this idea. It would be helpful if you could supply it.

Its from the app apparently. Which I don't have, but someone found it recently for me.

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