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The Tower of Joy

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If Rhaegar is dead and Aerys is dead, what do you believe was the point of the fight here? Why did the Kingsguard not tell Ned the truth instead of fighting to the death?

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1 hour ago, nyser1 said:

If Rhaegar is dead and Aerys is dead, what do you believe was the point of the fight here? Why did the Kingsguard not tell Ned the truth instead of fighting to the death?

We don't really know at this point, but there are certainly possible explanations.

One possibility is that were ordered to put Jon up as the Targaryen claimant.  They knew that Ned, as a Robert loyalist would not go along with this, and so fought him.

The Kingsguard may have also feared that Ned might harm Lyanna or Jon.  They don't know him or how he might react.  Better not to risk it.  Or Rhaegar may simply have given orders that Ned wasn't to have access.

I expect that subsequent books (if released) will contain more information on the issue.

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1 hour ago, nyser1 said:

If Rhaegar is dead and Aerys is dead, what do you believe was the point of the fight here? Why did the Kingsguard not tell Ned the truth instead of fighting to the death?

It has to do with book one's Eddard's vague memories and dreams that cause the reader to wonder who Eddard's bastard baby momma is/was.

Yeah, I know (sarcasm) every reader knows from book one that Jon Snow, the bastard of Eddard is the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar.

The only reference I have found about Rhaegar's tower of joy is in the below quote from book one. It is my understanding the silent sisters somehow manage to get the flesh off the bone so remains can be transported.

A Game of Thrones - Eddard X    "I gave them over to the silent sisters, to be sent north to Winterfell. Jory would want to lie beside his grandfather."    It would have to be his grandfather, for Jory's father was buried far to the south.       Martyn Cassel had perished with the rest.     Ned had pulled the tower down afterward, and used its bloody stones to build eight cairns upon the ridge.     It was said that Rhaegar had named that place the tower of joy, but for Ned it was a bitter memory.     They had been seven against three, yet only two had lived to ride away; Eddard Stark himself and the little crannogman, Howland Reed.    He did not think it omened well that he should dream that dream again after so many years./

With each book the map expands and it is not until DwD (book five) that the capitalized Tower of Joy appears on the book map.

To answer your opening question --- I dunna know.    Maybe book six will supply an answer.   Me, personally, I still question why Brandon's squire was spared, and how Eddard found him in the dungeon so that he could ride with Eddard to the tower of joy.

 

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1 hour ago, Clegane'sPup said:

To answer your opening question --- I dunna know.    Maybe book six will supply an answer.   Me, personally, I still question why Brandon's squire was spared, and how Eddard found him in the dungeon so that he could ride with Eddard to the tower of joy.

Sometime ago I had a topic about why the squire was spared and the rickard was called to KL and burned. Basically the squire confessed some northern conspiracy to dethrone aerys and put robert in his place. That would explain a lot of what happened...

2 hours ago, Nevets said:

We don't really know at this point, but there are certainly possible explanations.

One possibility is that were ordered to put Jon up as the Targaryen claimant.  They knew that Ned, as a Robert loyalist would not go along with this, and so fought him.

The Kingsguard may have also feared that Ned might harm Lyanna or Jon.  They don't know him or how he might react.  Better not to risk it.  Or Rhaegar may simply have given orders that Ned wasn't to have access.

I expect that subsequent books (if released) will contain more information on the issue.

I don t think anyone has a reason to imagine ned stark capable of kinslaying (killing lyanna)… And it was public knowlegde that robert wanted lyanna back. If lyanna is alone in the tower there would be no reason for a fight…

On the other hand, if jon is the son of lyanna and rhaegar then they know that ned had the duty to presente the baby to robert. They have no reason to think that ned would hide the biggest threat to his best friends crown. I mean, they just ended a war to put robert on the throne and kill all targs...

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We don't really know for sure what happened at the Tower of Joy yet. All we know about the event is from Ned's fever dream. 

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13 hours ago, nyser1 said:

If Rhaegar is dead and Aerys is dead, what do you believe was the point of the fight here? Why did the Kingsguard not tell Ned the truth instead of fighting to the death?

Because they swore an oath. 

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Posted (edited)

I think, that, maybe, Jon was born at Starfall, and then Kingsguards kidnapped him

(they either left Lyanna at Starfall, or took her with them. If Lyanna was left at Starfall, then, when they were leaving, they took with them wetnurse Wylla, who at that time was serving at Starfall, as wetnurse of Ashara's daughter Meera Reed),

and were intending to bring him to Robert. Aerys and Rhaegar were dead, and Robert became King of 7K, so Kingsguards were obliged to serve to Robert. If Robert, when he seized KL, had sent summons all over 7K to missing Kingsguards, hoping, that Lyanna was with them, and ordered them to return to KL, then they were obliged to do, what they were ordered. Because they swore an oath. An oath of a Kingsguard, which is to serve to the King, and to abide to his orders, even if those orders will result in a death of a newborn baby.

And, possibly, what Ned had promised to Lyanna, when she was dying in a bed of blood at Starfall, was to go after those Kingsguards, and to get Jon back. So could be, that the battle at the Tower of Joy happened not because those Kingsguards were protecting Jon, and wanted to make him a King, but because they were intending to bring him to Robert. That's why Ned had to kill them all, to prevent them from revealing Jon's origin to Robert. Could be, that both Jon and Lyanna were left at Starfall, and they weren't at the Tower of Joy, and the battle had happened there, just because that's where Ned caught up to Kingsguards, and was trying to prevent them from revealing to Robert what had happened at Starfall (that Lyanna gave there birth to Rhaegar's son).

Edited by Megorova

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13 hours ago, divica said:

Sometime ago I had a topic about why the squire was spared and the rickard was called to KL and burned. Basically the squire confessed some northern conspiracy to dethrone aerys and put robert in his place. That would explain a lot of what happened...

Or Aerys just overlooked killing him and he got swept up by Ned at some point.

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There was something they considered their duty as Kingsguard, and it was more important than anything else to them.  For me, the answer is protecting baby Jon as their king, and protecting him was best done by not letting anyone know he was born. Ned Stark alone perhaps may have been convinced, and trusted, not to tell, but those other six were a liability, and since Ned would never have allowed them killed, it had to be all of them.

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10 hours ago, rotting sea cow said:

Because they swore an oath. 

To die? To "protect their prince" by sitting outside a tower in a country of millions of people just after losing a civil war? With possibly the biggest threat to the throne? Seems like a legit strategy.

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11 hours ago, Euron III Greyjoy said:

We don't really know for sure what happened at the Tower of Joy yet. All we know about the event is from Ned's fever dream. 

And Ned was high on pain killers!

Aegon, the boy known as young Griff, was the baby born at the tower of joy.  If a baby was born and it lived.  The three kingsguard were loyal to their King Aerys II and unlike Selmy, did not bend knee to the Usurper.  There was going to be a fight to the death.  

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22 hours ago, divica said:

Sometime ago I had a topic about why the squire was spared and the rickard was called to KL and burned. Basically the squire confessed some northern conspiracy to dethrone aerys and put robert in his place. That would explain a lot of what happened...

Oh, I don't think that's exactly what happened - rather that Ethan Glover confessed that Lord Rickard and Brandon were conspiring with Rhaegar to overthrow Aerys II - as the king's advisers believed since Harrenhal - leading to the subsequent execution of two stubborn traitors.

Aerys II subsequent decision to also demand Ned's and Robert's heads would look that mad in this context. A traitor's son is going to take up a traitor's cause, everybody knows this. And if the conspiracy/rebellion has already begun - as Aerys II would have believed it was, interpreting Lyanna's 'abduction' as the starting point - then striking hard and fast at Ned and Robert was actually not adding fuel to the fire but an attempt to quench the fire before the flames could spread.

I'm definitely going to laugh my ass off if it turns out that the so-called 'Mad King' actually had a pretty good and entirely rational reason to execute the Starks and demand the heads of Eddard and Robert...

On 4/5/2019 at 11:26 PM, nyser1 said:

If Rhaegar is dead and Aerys is dead, what do you believe was the point of the fight here? Why did the Kingsguard not tell Ned the truth instead of fighting to the death?

Because they wanted to die. Their king was dead, and their prince was dead, too. House Targaryen was essentially dead, too.

Both Lord Cregan Stark and Ser Gyles Belgrave sums up the ultimate motivation of those three Kingsguard best, I think:

Quote

No knight of the Kingsguard should outlive his king when that king dies by violence,” Stark declared.

[...]

Only two men died that day. One was Ser Gyles Belgrave, of the Kingsguard. Unlike his Sworn Brothers, Ser Gyles refused the chance to exchange his white cloak for black. “You were not wrong, Lord Stark,” he said when his turn came. “A knight of the Kingsguard should not outlive his king.” Lord Cregan took his head off with a single swift swing of Ice.

These guys failed their king, their prince, and their vows. If you have lost everything you can just as well jump on the pyre (ask Daenerys!). Very few people actually ever asked or answered the question why those great warriors failed to kill seven Northmen three of which are confirmed to have been no great or experienced warriors (Ned himself, Howland Reed, and Ethan Glover, Brandon's former squire). But if they actually did not want to win or live, then this actually explains their actions much better than anything else.

The idea that the death of the old king means that the Kingsguard are suddenly sworn to or accepting of a new king - be he the Baratheon usurper sitting the Iron Throne or some Targaryen child pretender - is clearly not the case.

In that sense, the best way to make sense of this is to see those three men as the last stalwart Targaryen loyalists who would rather die for Aerys II and/or Rhaegar than bent the knee to Robert the Usurper. And going into exile is clearly not an option since the Kingsguard apparently 'does not flee'. Not to mention that it would be first that actual Kingsguard would sink as low as protecting a ragged pretender in exile. They protect kings, not beggars. Barristan Selmy is the first KG to ever offer his sword to a pretender in exile (at least to our present knowledge) and it isn't exactly his first choice after he learns of Robert's victory.

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10 hours ago, Megorova said:

I think, that, maybe, Jon was born at Starfall, and then Kingsguards kidnapped him

(they either left Lyanna at Starfall, or took her with them. If Lyanna was left at Starfall, then, when they were leaving, they took with them wetnurse Wylla, who at that time was serving at Starfall, as wetnurse of Ashara's daughter Meera Reed),

and were intending to bring him to Robert. Aerys and Rhaegar were dead, and Robert became King of 7K, so Kingsguards were obliged to serve to Robert. If Robert, when he seized KL, had sent summons all over 7K to missing Kingsguards, hoping, that Lyanna was with them, and ordered them to return to KL, then they were obliged to do, what they were ordered. Because they swore an oath. An oath of a Kingsguard, which is to serve to the King, and to abide to his orders, even if those orders will result in a death of a newborn baby.

And, possibly, what Ned had promised to Lyanna, when she was dying in a bed of blood at Starfall, was to go after those Kingsguards, and to get Jon back. So could be, that the battle at the Tower of Joy happened not because those Kingsguards were protecting Jon, and wanted to make him a King, but because they were intending to bring him to Robert. That's why Ned had to kill them all, to prevent them from revealing Jon's origin to Robert. Could be, that both Jon and Lyanna were left at Starfall, and they weren't at the Tower of Joy, and the battle had happened there, just because that's where Ned caught up to Kingsguards, and was trying to prevent them from revealing to Robert what had happened at Starfall (that Lyanna gave there birth to Rhaegar's son).

Indeed Jon was born a lot earlier than the perpetuated lie.  Perhaps early enough for him to be sired by Brandon on Ashara.  The two fell in love at Harrenhal and they met again and had sex.  The Kingsguard in the form of Barristan and jaime transferred their loyalty to Robert but Hightower and his two did not.  They were always loyal to Aerys.  The death of a king is considered a failure of the kG and therefore those men had nothing to live for.  They went down fighting and took down five of the usurper's dogs. 

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On 4/5/2019 at 2:26 PM, nyser1 said:

If Rhaegar is dead and Aerys is dead, what do you believe was the point of the fight here? Why did the Kingsguard not tell Ned the truth instead of fighting to the death?

Protecting the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna as the heir to the throne is the only answer

3 hours ago, nyser1 said:

To die? To "protect their prince" by sitting outside a tower in a country of millions of people just after losing a civil war? With possibly the biggest threat to the throne? Seems like a legit strategy.

To protect the Heir to the seven kingdoms while he was a babe at the breast and his mother was unable to travel 

 

13 hours ago, Coffeewiththegods said:

Maybe having heard what happened to baby aegon and rhaenys served as some motivation for the fight???

This 

11 hours ago, Megorova said:

I think, that, maybe, Jon was born at Starfall, and then Kingsguards kidnapped him

Not a chance. Rhaegar is Jon's bio father. 

56 minutes ago, Tai Pan said:

Indeed Jon was born a lot earlier than the perpetuated lie. 

And when would you say he was born in relation to what lie? 

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8 hours ago, nyser1 said:

To die? To "protect their prince" by sitting outside a tower in a country of millions of people just after losing a civil war? With possibly the biggest threat to the throne? Seems like a legit strategy.

Well, this is one of the mysteries of the series, because these guys are framed through the books as people who always did their duty without questioning it (unlike Jaime). 

If fact a lot of the ToJ dialogue can be translated just as "WTF are you doing here?" and they only answer "we swore an oath".

Somehow, I don't think they are referring to their kingsguard oaths but to something superior.

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Posted (edited)
13 hours ago, rotting sea cow said:

Well, this is one of the mysteries of the series, because these guys are framed through the books as people who always did their duty without questioning it (unlike Jaime). 

That is, as far as we know, true only about Hightower, and we know it only from that one instance when he chastises Jaime.

13 hours ago, rotting sea cow said:

If fact a lot of the ToJ dialogue can be translated just as "WTF are you doing here?" and they only answer "we swore an oath".

Somehow, I don't think they are referring to their kingsguard oaths but to something superior.

If they are referring to something else, it doesn't make sense for them to emphasize their KG status in practically every statement, though.

19 hours ago, Tai Pan said:

Indeed Jon was born a lot earlier than the perpetuated lie.  Perhaps early enough for him to be sired by Brandon on Ashara.  The two fell in love at Harrenhal and they met again and had sex. 

A factual statement by GRRM is that Jon was born 8-9 months before Dany or thereabouts". So if you want to claim that Jon was born at an earlier date, you need to subscribe to the lemongate and "Dany is not Dany" theory. If you don't, then Jon was born around the time of the Sack or slightly later, and thus conceived a couple of months after Brandon's death.

 

Quote

The Kingsguard in the form of Barristan and jaime transferred their loyalty to Robert but Hightower and his two did not.  They were always loyal to Aerys. 

I'd say that "did not betray Aerys" would be quite close to the truth but I wouldn't be surprised to learn that Dayne and Hightower played as loose with their oaths as they could without actually breaking them. The finest knight in the Seven Kingdoms seemed tad too sad about his oaths, which is hardly a surprise for a decent man sworn to a sadistic psycho.

 

Quote

The death of a king is considered a failure of the kG and therefore those men had nothing to live for. 

A quote for this, please?

Not to mention that Aerys' chosen heir, Viserys, was still alive and kicking at that time and as we see after Robert's death, the transfer of the title is immediate - the king is dead, long live the king. If they were so loyal to Aerys, they should have gone to Viserys ASAP.

 

Quote

They went down fighting and took down five of the usurper's dogs. 

Pretty much contradictory to the gist of the ToJ dialogue.

21 hours ago, nyser1 said:

To die? To "protect their prince" by sitting outside a tower in a country of millions of people just after losing a civil war? With possibly the biggest threat to the throne? Seems like a legit strategy.

It wasn't millions people who came knocking, it was Ned Stark, Lyanna's brother. In their eyes, they must have had a very serious reason to engage the man. Like, him being the best pal to the man who had just condoned the murder of Rhaegar's children and whose known record was loyalty and truthfulness, so he couldn't be expected to betray his new king and lie to him.

Edited by Ygrain

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18 hours ago, Megorova said:

I think, that, maybe, Jon was born at Starfall, and then Kingsguards kidnapped him

(they either left Lyanna at Starfall, or took her with them. If Lyanna was left at Starfall, then, when they were leaving, they took with them wetnurse Wylla, who at that time was serving at Starfall, as wetnurse of Ashara's daughter Meera Reed),

and were intending to bring him to Robert. Aerys and Rhaegar were dead, and Robert became King of 7K, so Kingsguards were obliged to serve to Robert. If Robert, when he seized KL, had sent summons all over 7K to missing Kingsguards, hoping, that Lyanna was with them, and ordered them to return to KL, then they were obliged to do, what they were ordered. Because they swore an oath. An oath of a Kingsguard, which is to serve to the King, and to abide to his orders, even if those orders will result in a death of a newborn baby.

But...

Quote
"I came down on Storm's End to lift the siege," Ned told them, "and the Lords Tyrell and Redwyne dipped their banners, and all their knights bent the knee to pledge us fealty. I was certain you would be among them."
 
"Our knees do not bend easily," said Ser Arthur Dayne.

So, no.

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13 hours ago, Tai Pan said:

Indeed Jon was born a lot earlier than the perpetuated lie.  Perhaps early enough for him to be sired by Brandon on Ashara.  The two fell in love at Harrenhal and they met again and had sex.  The Kingsguard in the form of Barristan and jaime transferred their loyalty to Robert but Hightower and his two did not.  They were always loyal to Aerys.  The death of a king is considered a failure of the kG and therefore those men had nothing to live for.  They went down fighting and took down five of the usurper's dogs. 

In my opinion, Jon was conceived on Christmas Eve of 282 at Starfall, and was born during autumnal equinox, in 20s (22-24) of September 283. If my guess is correct, then Jon's sign of Zodiac is Libra, and his guardian planet is Venus. Venus is called Morning Star. In Latin it's also called Lucifer, which translates as Lightbringer. In the Bible Jesus was referred to as Lucifer, and Morning Star. Satan was also referred to as Lucifer, and also Son of the Dawn. Starfall is build on a site of a fallen star. Their ancestral sword Dawn was forged from the heart of that star, and whoever is wielding that sword is titled The Sword of the Morning. I think, that all of this are clues from GRRM, that point to the time and place of Jon's birth, and reveal, that he is Azor Ahai and next Sword of the Morning, while Dawn of Daynes is Lightbringer (the same sword, that was forged by previous Azor Ahai thousands years ago).

So I don't think, that Jon is Brandon's and Ashara's child, or that he was born much earlier than Robb, my guess, is that Jon is just a month or two older than Robb.

GRRM said, that Jon is 8-9 months older than Dany. Dany was born in first half of 284, so Jon was born not earlier than in second half of 283.

By the time of Jon's conception Brandon was already dead.

12 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:
On 4/6/2019 at 4:31 PM, Megorova said:

I think, that, maybe, Jon was born at Starfall, and then Kingsguards kidnapped him

Not a chance. Rhaegar is Jon's bio father. 

?

I'm not arguing about whose child Jon is. To me it's obvious, that his parents are Rhaegar and Lyanna. Though Jon, most likely, was born at Starfall, because, in my opinion, that's were Rhaegar brought Lyanna, after he kidnapped her. And that's where they were staying all that time, while they were missing. That's from where Rhaegar returned to King's Landing, prior going to Trident.

6 hours ago, Lady of Mercia said:

But...

Quote
"I came down on Storm's End to lift the siege," Ned told them, "and the Lords Tyrell and Redwyne dipped their banners, and all their knights bent the knee to pledge us fealty. I was certain you would be among them."
 
"Our knees do not bend easily," said Ser Arthur Dayne.

So, no.

What Arthur said, could be interpreted differently. Just because he said that, it doesn't mean, that he refused to acknowledge Robert as King. Even if they did agreed to accept Robert as their new master, it doesn't mean, that they will be bending their knees to Robert's "dogs".

Could be, that the fight at the Tower of Joy had happened because of mixed reasons. Could be, that those Kingsguards were intending to deliver Jon to King's Landing, either to give him to Robert, or the opposite - to crown him as the new King. In both cases it was as good as death sentence for Jon, so that's why Ned had to stop them.

It's just doesn't make sense for Ned to kill all of them, if what they were trying to do, is to serve to Jon as their King. In this case, there really was no reason for all of them to fight to the death. Something's not right in that Battle at the Tower of Joy story. There's missing an important piece of information, and without it, we can only speculate about what was going on there.

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Posted (edited)
16 hours ago, Bowen Marsh said:

And Ned was high on pain killers!

You're forgetting these parts (the opening and closing sentences of the dream description):

"He dreamt an old dream, of three knights in white cloaks, and a tower long fallen, and Lyanna in her bed of blood."

"He did not think it omened well that he should dream that dream again after so many years."

 

Edited by The Ned's Little Girl
I'm bad at editing

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