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Ida Hearst

That AGoT line foreshadowing the last scene of ADoS

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Posted (edited)

This post in the show forums (sorry) made me remember that Daniel Abraham quote about a line in AGoT he would have dropped for the comic adaptation, if not for GRRM telling him that it was relevant for the very last scene of the series:

Quote

There are things about this story that only he knows, and they aren’t all obvious.  There was one scene I had to rework because there’s a particular line of dialog – and you wouldn’t know it to look at – that’s important in the last scene of “A Dream of Spring.”

So I started a quick reread of the AGoT comics trying to spot lines of dialog that would fit the bill. Here's what I looked out for:

  • Lines that you might expect to be cut from an adaptation -- that is, no obvious foreshadowing, no punchlines, no central character moments;
  • Lines that foreshadow the fate of a character who can be expected to still be around in ADoS, and relevant enough to feature in the final scene; and/or
  • Lines that contain information that could be relevant to a reveal in the final scene.

This excludes some candidates that I've seen put forward on this site, such as Tyrion's "I never bet against my family" line (which is the punchline to his chapter and a central character moment, so it was unlikely to be cut in the first place). Also, Abraham "reworking" a scene implies a little more than just including a line in a scene that would have played out the same way only without the line in question.

So here are my candidates so far, in mostly chronological order, with my estimates of their likelihood. The one I like best is at the very end.

  1. Illyrio saying "May the Lord of Light shower you with blessings" to Daenerys, implying he's part of the Red God crowd. (Unlikely - wouldn't have taken much reworking)
  2. The whole "where will Robert Arryn be fostered" mess. (Unlikely - would have required reworking several scenes across multiple issues)
  3. The conversation between Benjen and Jon during the feast, specifically the lines: "Daeren Targaryen was only fourteen when he conquered Dorne" ... "and Daeren Targaryen was eighteen when he died." (Possible, because it seems extraneous enough to be cut-worthy; but at the same time I don't see a scenario where this is relevant at the end.)
  4. In the same conversation, Jon saying "I will never father a bastard. Never!" (Unlikely - it's the punchline of the chapter, and it would be a really cheap bit of foreshadowing.)
  5. The "fine new lens" that was in the carved wooden box left on a table in Maester Luwin's observatory, assumed by him to be merely a cover for Lysa's coded letter to Catelyn. (A long shot, but it would make for a nice surprise.)
  6. The dragon eggs being "from the shadow lands beyond Asshai" (Unlikely - this probably would have been included anyway, if only for atmosphere, and putting it back in doesn't require much reworking)
  7. "The barrows of the First Men are everywhere in the North, your Grace. This land is old." - Ned to Robert when he asks if they've "ridden into a graveyard" on the way south. (Another long shot... but seriously the First Men rising up from their barrows at the end would be epic.)
  8. Robert tells Ned that it was Jon Arryn who convinced him to leave Viserys & Daenerys alive. (Possible - the end of the series being linked to the Jon Arryn murder mystery and revealing a whole other dimension to it would be sweet, but intuitively it seems to lack the necessary punch.)
  9. Maester Aemon calling Tyrion "a giant come among us, here at the end of the world". (Possible - it would fit with Anne Groell's claim that GRRM told Abraham the end to Tyrion's arc specifically. I have no idea what this might mean though.)

I'm not through all of the issues yet, but for now here's my favorite so far. It's the scene where Jon and Arya watch the boys fight in the yard, and Jon tells Arya:

Quote

"You had best run back to your room, little sister. The longer you hide, the sterner the penance. You'll be sewing all through the winter. When spring comes, they will find your body with a needle still between your frozen fingers."

This scene, as depicted in the comic, could have been a couple of panels shorter by focusing mostly on the action in the yard and getting rid of most of the dialog between Jon and Arya. It's also a line that, if you didn't know what you were looking for, you wouldn't think of as particularly significant.

If you do, though... huh.

What do you think?

Edited by Ida Hearst

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Ida Hearst said:

This post in the show forums (sorry) made me remember that Daniel Abraham quote about a line in AGoT he would have dropped for the comic adaptation, if not for GRRM telling him that it was relevant for the very last scene of the series:

 

Interesting. I think the most likely would be "a giant come among us, here at the end of the world" or the Arya line.

I see two possible endings for Tyrion:

1- He inherits Casterly Rock from the new ruler, but has lost everyone in the process.

2- I have had a VERY strong impression from my first read from Tyrion's time in Winterfell and the Wall that he would end his story there. He would be part of the Night Watch. His pissing over the wall sort of cemented it to me :D

I can see #1 happening, and him choosing for some reason to leave for the wall. Or #2 happening as punishment. And he ends up pissing south of the wall this time :)

The Arya bit seems very likely too. She would be "fighting all winter (with needle)" and die in the process, found frozen to death with needle in her hand, or having turned into an Other somehow.

Edited by NonoNono

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2 hours ago, Ida Hearst said:

I'm not through all of the issues yet, but for now here's my favorite so far. It's the scene where Jon and Arya watch the boys fight in the yard, and Jon tells Arya:

This scene, as depicted in the comic, could have been a couple of panels shorter by focusing mostly on the action in the yard and getting rid of most of the dialog between Jon and Arya. It's also a line that, if you didn't know what you were looking for, you wouldn't think of as particularly significant.

I'm not looking at the comic as I don't have it (and I don't intend to) but it seems to me that this line isn't the droid you're looking for.

1) That particular line has been discussed and referred to many times on this website alone, so I don't think it's one that people have skimmed over or not thought very significant. Just the opposite, I would say.

2) Again, I don't have the comic, but I don't really see how adding those 4 should sentences would require much re-working. The scene has to end at some point, that line is a perfect end point to transition to the next scene.

So, I just don't see that one line as likely to be the one. Fun topic, though! :cheers:

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22 minutes ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

I'm not looking at the comic as I don't have it (and I don't intend to) but it seems to me that this line isn't the droid you're looking for.

1) That particular line has been discussed and referred to many times on this website alone, so I don't think it's one that people have skimmed over or not thought very significant. Just the opposite, I would say.

Well, most people don't notice anything significant about that line.  Most have to have its potential significance pointed out to them.  And even then, most refuse to believe the line has any significance.  I can readily believe that the comic adaptor did not realize the line was significant, and reasonably assumed that other readers (or at least the vast majority of them) will not realize it either.  And that's basically all he is saying, IMHO.

That line is obviously one potential candidate.  But since I don't have the comic, I can't express an opinion on possible others.

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5 hours ago, Ida Hearst said:

So here are my candidates so far, in mostly chronological order, with my estimates of their likelihood. The one I like best is at the very end.

  1. Illyrio saying "May the Lord of Light shower you with blessings" to Daenerys, implying he's part of the Red God crowd. (Unlikely - wouldn't have taken much reworking) Daenerys is the light and the future.  Illyrio may be a follower of the red god but many people throw out these religious lines.  It doesn't mean he truly believes in Rhllor.
  2. The whole "where will Robert Arryn be fostered" mess. (Unlikely - would have required reworking several scenes across multiple issues)  Unimportant.
  3. The conversation between Benjen and Jon during the feast, specifically the lines: "Daeren Targaryen was only fourteen when he conquered Dorne" ... "and Daeren Targaryen was eighteen when he died." (Possible, because it seems extraneous enough to be cut-worthy; but at the same time I don't see a scenario where this is relevant at the end.)  
  4. In the same conversation, Jon saying "I will never father a bastard. Never!" (Unlikely - it's the punchline of the chapter, and it would be a really cheap bit of foreshadowing.)  Unimportant, unless he comes back to life.  But he cannot marry so should he father a child, this child will be definitely a bastard.
  5. The "fine new lens" that was in the carved wooden box left on a table in Maester Luwin's observatory, assumed by him to be merely a cover for Lysa's coded letter to Catelyn. (A long shot, but it would make for a nice surprise.)
  6. The dragon eggs being "from the shadow lands beyond Asshai" (Unlikely - this probably would have been included anyway, if only for atmosphere, and putting it back in doesn't require much reworking)  The dragon eggs probably came from Aerea but Asshai can't be ruled out as the source.
  7. "The barrows of the First Men are everywhere in the North, your Grace. This land is old." - Ned to Robert when he asks if they've "ridden into a graveyard" on the way south. (Another long shot... but seriously the First Men rising up from their barrows at the end would be epic.)  The frozen kings of the north will rise and serve the Others as wights.
  8. Robert tells Ned that it was Jon Arryn who convinced him to leave Viserys & Daenerys alive. (Possible - the end of the series being linked to the Jon Arryn murder mystery and revealing a whole other dimension to it would be sweet, but intuitively it seems to lack the necessary punch.)  Not much here except to say Jon Arryn was the voice of intelligence in Robert's court.
  9. Maester Aemon calling Tyrion "a giant come among us, here at the end of the world". (Possible - it would fit with Anne Groell's claim that GRRM told Abraham the end to Tyrion's arc specifically. I have no idea what this might mean though.)

I'm not through all of the issues yet, but for now here's my favorite so far. It's the scene where Jon and Arya watch the boys fight in the yard, and Jon tells Arya:

Quote

"You had best run back to your room, little sister. The longer you hide, the sterner the penance. You'll be sewing all through the winter. When spring comes, they will find your body with a needle still between your frozen fingers."

This scene, as depicted in the comic, could have been a couple of panels shorter by focusing mostly on the action in the yard and getting rid of most of the dialog between Jon and Arya. It's also a line that, if you didn't know what you were looking for, you wouldn't think of as particularly significant.

If you do, though... huh.

What do you think?  

 

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5 hours ago, NonoNono said:

Interesting. I think the most likely would be "a giant come among us, here at the end of the world" or the Arya line.

I see two possible endings for Tyrion:

1- He inherits Casterly Rock from the new ruler, but has lost everyone in the process.

2- I have had a VERY strong impression from my first read from Tyrion's time in Winterfell and the Wall that he would end his story there. He would be part of the Night Watch. His pissing over the wall sort of cemented it to me :D

I can see #1 happening, and him choosing for some reason to leave for the wall. Or #2 happening as punishment. And he ends up pissing south of the wall this time :)

The Arya bit seems very likely too. She would be "fighting all winter (with needle)" and die in the process, found frozen to death with needle in her hand, or having turned into an Other somehow.

I don't think there will be a Night's Watch any more when the books are done.  

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5 hours ago, NonoNono said:

Interesting. I think the most likely would be "a giant come among us, here at the end of the world" or the Arya line.

I see two possible endings for Tyrion:

1- He inherits Casterly Rock from the new ruler, but has lost everyone in the process.

2- I have had a VERY strong impression from my first read from Tyrion's time in Winterfell and the Wall that he would end his story there. He would be part of the Night Watch. His pissing over the wall sort of cemented it to me :D

I can see #1 happening, and him choosing for some reason to leave for the wall. Or #2 happening as punishment. And he ends up pissing south of the wall this time :)

The Arya bit seems very likely too. She would be "fighting all winter (with needle)" and die in the process, found frozen to death with needle in her hand, or having turned into an Other somehow.

Tyrion killed his father.  That crime is not going to be forgiven.  But such things are not going to be high priority when the whole continent is going through an Ice Age.  It will depend on how soon he gets back west.  If he gets back early enough so that the wall is still standing, yeah, Queen Daenerys might send him to the wall for his crime.  Jorah as well. 

Arya should die with a sword in her hands.  She dies while trying to kill the people on her list. 

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Fin and interesting topic! :cheers:

And as w/ so much else, impossible to crack at this point. I think all options you provided are at least possible. That said, my gut tells me it should be something from Bran's PoV... Of course, to be slightly coherent I'd have to reread all thr AGoT Bran chapters and the comic book! And now I plan to, but it may take a while. 

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Is the line from Ned to Bran about he who passes the sentence should swing the sword in it? Cause that line in the books and the show is followed by Jon. Reread that in the book, and rewatch it in the show (easy to find on YT). The way it cuts to Jon in both cases feels really tied to the meaning of what Ned said.

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Jon and Mormont’s conversation in his last chapter in GoT after Jon’s attempted desertion. How much is included in the comic? Mormont said some pretty heavy stuff about Jon being meant to be at the wall with his wolf. That chapter always gets me.

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11 hours ago, Ida Hearst said:

This post in the show forums (sorry) made me remember that Daniel Abraham quote about a line in AGoT he would have dropped for the comic adaptation, if not for GRRM telling him that it was relevant for the very last scene of the series:

So I started a quick reread of the AGoT comics trying to spot lines of dialog that would fit the bill. Here's what I looked out for:

  • Lines that you might expect to be cut from an adaptation -- that is, no obvious foreshadowing, no punchlines, no central character moments;
  • Lines that foreshadow the fate of a character who can be expected to still be around in ADoS, and relevant enough to feature in the final scene; and/or
  • Lines that contain information that could be relevant to a reveal in the final scene.

This excludes some candidates that I've seen put forward on this site, such as Tyrion's "I never bet against my family" line (which is the punchline to his chapter and a central character moment, so it was unlikely to be cut in the first place). Also, Abraham "reworking" a scene implies a little more than just including a line in a scene that would have played out the same way only without the line in question.

So here are my candidates so far, in mostly chronological order, with my estimates of their likelihood. The one I like best is at the very end.

  1. Illyrio saying "May the Lord of Light shower you with blessings" to Daenerys, implying he's part of the Red God crowd. (Unlikely - wouldn't have taken much reworking)
  2. The whole "where will Robert Arryn be fostered" mess. (Unlikely - would have required reworking several scenes across multiple issues)
  3. The conversation between Benjen and Jon during the feast, specifically the lines: "Daeren Targaryen was only fourteen when he conquered Dorne" ... "and Daeren Targaryen was eighteen when he died." (Possible, because it seems extraneous enough to be cut-worthy; but at the same time I don't see a scenario where this is relevant at the end.)
  4. In the same conversation, Jon saying "I will never father a bastard. Never!" (Unlikely - it's the punchline of the chapter, and it would be a really cheap bit of foreshadowing.)
  5. The "fine new lens" that was in the carved wooden box left on a table in Maester Luwin's observatory, assumed by him to be merely a cover for Lysa's coded letter to Catelyn. (A long shot, but it would make for a nice surprise.)
  6. The dragon eggs being "from the shadow lands beyond Asshai" (Unlikely - this probably would have been included anyway, if only for atmosphere, and putting it back in doesn't require much reworking)
  7. "The barrows of the First Men are everywhere in the North, your Grace. This land is old." - Ned to Robert when he asks if they've "ridden into a graveyard" on the way south. (Another long shot... but seriously the First Men rising up from their barrows at the end would be epic.)
  8. Robert tells Ned that it was Jon Arryn who convinced him to leave Viserys & Daenerys alive. (Possible - the end of the series being linked to the Jon Arryn murder mystery and revealing a whole other dimension to it would be sweet, but intuitively it seems to lack the necessary punch.)
  9. Maester Aemon calling Tyrion "a giant come among us, here at the end of the world". (Possible - it would fit with Anne Groell's claim that GRRM told Abraham the end to Tyrion's arc specifically. I have no idea what this might mean though.)

I'm not through all of the issues yet, but for now here's my favorite so far. It's the scene where Jon and Arya watch the boys fight in the yard, and Jon tells Arya:

This scene, as depicted in the comic, could have been a couple of panels shorter by focusing mostly on the action in the yard and getting rid of most of the dialog between Jon and Arya. It's also a line that, if you didn't know what you were looking for, you wouldn't think of as particularly significant.

If you do, though... huh.

What do you think?

I don’t know the comics,  but I do have a theory that would involve dialog from got (the first chapter) being relevant to the final chapter. 

 

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I like thes three the most:

12 hours ago, Ida Hearst said:

The conversation between Benjen and Jon during the feast, specifically the lines: "Daeren Targaryen was only fourteen when he conquered Dorne" ... "and Daeren Targaryen was eighteen when he died." (Possible, because it seems extraneous enough to be cut-worthy; but at the same time I don't see a scenario where this is relevant at the end.)

It could be foreshadowingthe faith of Daenarys (or maybe fAegon ). Shes 16 right now when started she conquering things?

12 hours ago, Ida Hearst said:

Maester Aemon calling Tyrion "a giant come among us, here at the end of the world". (Possible - it would fit with Anne Groell's claim that GRRM told Abraham the end to Tyrion's arc specifically. I have no idea what this might mean though.)

I think this is to extraordinary and important for Tyrion to leace it away.

12 hours ago, Ida Hearst said:

You had best run back to your room, little sister. The longer you hide, the sterner the penance. You'll be sewing all through the winter. When spring comes, they will find your body with a needle still between your frozen fingers."

I agree with you that this a little bit more likely than others

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5 hours ago, NonoNono said:

Is the line from Ned to Bran about he who passes the sentence should swing the sword in it? Cause that line in the books and the show is followed by Jon. Reread that in the book, and rewatch it in the show (easy to find on YT). The way it cuts to Jon in both cases feels really tied to the meaning of what Ned said.

Yes the line is in the comics, but I didn't include it in the list because I cannot see how Abraham would have planned to cut it from the script for the comic. It's obviously significant and referenced in multiple later scenes (e.g. Ned killing Lady, Robb beheading Karstark, and of course Theon), and it's a central character moment for Ned / the Stark family.

 

10 hours ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

2) Again, I don't have the comic, but I don't really see how adding those 4 should sentences would require much re-working. The scene has to end at some point, that line is a perfect end point to transition to the next scene.

Yes, but the comic adds a whole scene that reads like mostly fluff ("The hour of play is done, leave the children to their frolics") to fill the page that contains these lines. In the rest of the dialog on that page, we learn that Joff is arrogant (which was amply demonstrated on the previous page), that Jon thinks Joffrey is a little shit (we knew that) and Arya repeats that she hates needlework (we knew that too - it's literally how the chapter started). I'll try to upload a picture to clarify later :)

 

3 hours ago, Winter Blues said:

Jon and Mormont’s conversation in his last chapter in GoT after Jon’s attempted desertion. How much is included in the comic? Mormont said some pretty heavy stuff about Jon being meant to be at the wall with his wolf. That chapter always gets me.

Not there yet, but yes I'm curious about this one!

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8 hours ago, Karneol said:

It could be foreshadowingthe faith of Daenarys (or maybe fAegon ). Shes 16 right now when started she conquering things?

It's just hard for me to see Dany dying in the last scene of the series.  If she dies, I'd think it would prior to that.

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Posted (edited)

Well I think it's possible Dany's last words will be something like "Fire & blood!", and goes on to burn everything down before dying. "May the Lord of Light shower you with blessings" could tie to that. Fire = sacrifice by burning people, blood = blood magic.

One thing I've hoped wouldn't happen but might, is that to defeat the Others, the "good guys" have to actually sacrifice thousands of people by burning them alive. Like a battle between the Great Other and R'hllor could only be won or settled by killing countless people on both sides, probably to reach a stalemate.

What would Jon do if this was the solution to stop the advance of the Others?

 

Edited by NonoNono

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Why didn't you include the conversation between Arya/Ned in King's Landing? The comics have it exactly right while the show felt the need to rewrite it to make sense. Daniel could've haf the same misgivings and changed that section. Daniel even has Arya winking when she says the last line.

 

Here are other interviews and quotes about Daniel's collaboration with George:

 

2011DA: "Prying spoilers out of George. There are times when I need to compress some bit of action or reduce the number of characters in a scene just so that the page isn’t confusing to look at, but in order for that to happen, I need to know what’s critical plot and what’s not. As a result, I know a bunch things about how the series ends and what some of the prophecies in the text mean that I would be shot for telling."

 

http://aidanmoher.com/blog/2011/05/articles/guest-post-the-three-wedding-nights-of-daenerys-targaryen-by-daniel-abraham/

 

http://www.danielabraham.com/2011/12/16/ignite-new-mexico-adapting-game-of-thrones/

 

https://www.cbr.com/abraham-plays-a-game-of-thrones/

 

https://www.unboundworlds.com/2012/04/new-release-interview-game-of-thrones-graphic-novel-hc-by-daniel-abraham/

 

https://www.comixology.com/George-R-R-Martins-A-Game-Of-Thrones-The-Comic-Book/comics-series/6851?ref=Y29taWMvdmlldy9kZXNrdG9wL2JyZWFkY3J1bWJz

 

http://www.mtv.com/news/2622417/interview-daniel-abraham-on-bringing-game-of-thrones-to-comics/

 

 

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41 minutes ago, a black swan said:

Why didn't you include the conversation between Arya/Ned in King's Landing? The comics have it exactly right while the show felt the need to rewrite it to make sense. Daniel could've haf the same misgivings and changed that section. Daniel even has Arya winking when she says the last line.

 

Here are other interviews and quotes about Daniel's collaboration with George:

 

 

Which line would it be?

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Posted (edited)

I doubt it's the "that's Sansa" line simply because, at that point in the story, she is already engaged to the Crown Prince, so she's already in line to be queen.  Not really foreshadowy enough. 

That scene is just character development for Arya. 

Edited by briantw

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On 4/6/2019 at 12:40 PM, Ida Hearst said:

 

None of those foreshadow the ending.  That's my opinion.  

The ending of ADOS will happen in Essos and it will probably be a Daenerys POV.  The return to Westeros has been postponed because of the climate change.  And should the theory of western refugees taking shelter in Essos they too will be dreaming of the day they can return home.  

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The Arya lines could work.

The series will end with Robert Arryn as king on the IT and Arya his queen, or to be his queen.

So the final scene of ADOS could very well be Robert's coronation and/or Robert's and Arya's wedding.

Thematically it is Arya's arc to put away needle and to stop being a FM and a no-one, to sacrifice the freedom that provides her and once again be Arya Stark, so that she may do right by her people and family and the realm. And those lines are an encapsulation of this arc.

So the final scene could be stuff like;

- Arya giving Needle away to someone.

- Taking a Queen's sceptre and making a comparison of it to needle (in her mind).

- Moving away from a coronation/wedding, it could be Arya is betrothed to be queen but is missing or contemplating doing a runner and is found and asked who she is, and then must make the final decision and answer either no-one or reveal herself. She could say something like I'm Arya Stark, your queen in waiting, take me to my room.

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