What end of the story will satisfy you

[Wik]

On 4/7/2019 at 5:17 PM, T and A said:

Only six epsiodes until this series comes to a definitive end. And boy, was this a wild ride. It has done so much for the fantasy genre in mainstream media, and it has set whole new levels for television in general, that one will remember it even in the next decades. 

In memory of that, I would like to know what specific end would you wish for the series? What plot do you imagine in your head, that would be truly a perfect ending for this saga. 

I would like an ending that fits with the storytelling so far. A bittersweet ending. It would fit perfectly if a victory against the WW is achieved, but by great costs that changes the whole world afterwards. If the Iron Throne still exists after that, I would be disapointed. It should be an end of an era and the beginning of a new one. There could still be Kings or Monarchs, since a democracy seems rather unrealistic, given the educational background of the Westerosi population, but I would wish that the Kingdoms of Westeros would gain more indipendency. (And maybe not necceseraly seven). What I would also love is, if magic would reapear on the world, rather than dying (I never liked LotR for that). 

What are your thoughts?

(Reminder: if you don't have anything to say specific about the ending, please don't participate. Sarcasm is also not an answer to this question.)

 

What is the reasoning behind people wanting the IT gone? Genuinely curious, not trolling. 

To me, it is the seat of the king of Westeros. Simple as that. I get there can be a perceived deeper symbology there, but I feel like there is no deeper purpose to seeing it done. It would just be something to do because, "meh why not". 

If anything, it is an ancient relic that hearkens back to the period of Westeros' founding and Aegon the Conqueror. 

The only way I could see it being destroyed or disposed of (and I would still not be thrilled with it being done) would be if there was some kind of council that governed the land rather than a king and or queen. 

I guess I've always pictured things relatively similar in that houses that have legit heirs will continue on, a new king and or queen will rule Westeros, some lands maybe divided up so the land that is controlled by "x" house may be different (in some cases much different, in some cases maybe not much change at all), but the general paradigm would remain the same. 

I feel like the ending to this series for me will be one of those, "I don't know exactly what I want, but when I see it, I will know", if it pisses me off or is bittersweet as indicated by GRRM etc....

I'm pretty pragmatic. I look at it like this:

NK wins or NK is defeated (I think defeated)

Cersei holds the IT or Cersei is defeated (I think she is defeated)

Westeros is completely changed or Westeros is "restored" (I think restored, within reason, why wouldn't these people repair their homes and these giant castles that are huge landmarks within their society?!)

Cersei, Jaime, Davos, Theon, Varys, Mel, The Mountain, The Hound all die (not that I necessarily WANT this in each case, but I just think they are all doomed) and obviously there can plenty of others BUT one thing I will say about the "Everyone is going to die" attitude; there has to be SOME people still alive to rebuild human civilization, in whatever form it survives. Some of these key characters along the way will make it out (I think Jon is the BIG character that makes it out, but if he doesn't I won't lose my mind the way I did when Eddard or Robb died). 

Other than that, I don't know. Thats why I am reading and watching! 

[Simon Tam]

6 hours ago, Wik said:

What is the reasoning behind people wanting the IT gone? Genuinely curious, not trolling. 

 

 

a) A powerful stories need an important solution. Like ending the time of the elves and beginning the time of men, or starting a stellar Djihad with a messianic leader etc. And here in Westeros would end what had begun with Aegon tC.

b) And the IT is shown empty in Daenerys Visions, so it would make sense.

C): Presently there is no worthy king/queen anyway

[Ser Gareth]

On 4/16/2019 at 1:35 AM, Timm said:

There are two scenes early in Season 1 that do not exist at all in the books.

First is Cersei's conversation with Cat where she talks about the son that she lost, a "beautiful black haired boy" and second where she is talking to Fat Bob about their first child that they lost. The first could be a lie, but the second would need to be collusion between two people that hate each other. 

By creating these scenes, D+D have deliberately introduced Gendry as a true born heir. But they seem to have forgotten about it now.

Oh and PS:

I hope they reference the Ghost Grass in the final scene, or the Dragons of Pern thing.

Those scenes were there to plant the seed that the three kids weren't Roberts.

[Ser Gareth]

On 4/23/2019 at 8:05 PM, Thinishter Goat said:

thanks. yeah i think that relates to R+L=J and maybe a few minor details as opposed to the actual ending of the series - i doubt even George had figured that out by the 2nd book!

More than one or two readers knew about R+L=J.  That's the question GRRM asked D&D.

GRRM has known how it ends before the first book was released.

[Xemi]

On 4/25/2019 at 5:32 AM, Simon Tam said:

a) A powerful stories need an important solution. Like ending the time of the elves and beginning the time of men, or starting a stellar Djihad with a messianic leader etc. And here in Westeros would end what had begun with Aegon tC.

b) And the IT is shown empty in Daenerys Visions, so it would make sense.

C): Presently there is no worthy king/queen anyway

a)The time of elves had already ended at the time of the LoTR trilogy, only a few remnants that hadn't left yet remained.

b)No, it's shown covered in snow. And, surprise, we have a character known as Jon SNOW.

c) Jon Snow says hi.

[Kajjo]

On 4/24/2019 at 11:17 PM, Wik said:

What is the reasoning behind people wanting the IT gone? Genuinely curious, not trolling. 

If one of our protagonists ends of on the Iron throne, then we know for sure that this is not a final solution, just a moment in time.

Intrigues will continue, the throne might be conquered by the next army tomorrow. You could simply write the next chapter with another usurper wanting the throne.

GRRM, however, promised a certain finality to the ending. 

[Wik]

1 minute ago, Kajjo said:

If one of our protagonists ends of on the Iron throne, then we know for sure that this is not a final solution, just a moment in time.

Intrigues will continue, the throne might be conquered by the next army tomorrow. You could simply write the next chapter with another usurper wanting the throne.

GRRM, however, promised a certain finality to the ending. 

A certain finality to the ending means the IT is gone?

I would suspect that indicates defeating the NK.

No longer having need of the now shattered Wall. 

Restoring and re-organizing houses (and maybe even some inter mixing/consolidation of them). 

Definitively restoring Westeros and the hierarchy. 

The point is, Jon Snow, for example, has not displayed ANY of the faulty thinking of previous kings, such as the Mad King.  In fact, the exact opposite, as many suspect he somehow sacrifices himself for the realm (I disagree, but reserve the right to be wrong). These are traits the last few kings and queens have absolutely lacked. 

Anytime anyone sits a throne there is "possible" usurping and such but that is the nature of feudalism. The point is, the Targs ruled for thousands of years with surprising stability and only until one of them was SO far off the edge of craziness did anyone dare revolt. Once an actual GOOD king, who is also a Targ, but holds appeal to other areas, ya know, such as the North, things settle back down to "normal" again. THAT is finality. 

I feel like people here are very much like Cersei...they would rather have a cool idea and be wrong than to yield to someone else's point. The IT is a symbol of Aegon and the Targs. It's just that. A symbol.  And again, a symbol of, generally, a very great dynasty of rulers. the IT isn't the "enemy". 

Defeating and or surviving the NK is the REAL issue and the real test. The Seven Kingdoms should, generally speaking, return to a pretty "normal" layout, dating back roughly to when the first book was written (obviously with some changes here and there but generally recognizable). 

[Xemi]

12 minutes ago, Wik said:

The point is, the Targs ruled for thousands of years

Minor correction, but it was only hundred of years.

 

Fully agree with the rest of your post, though.

[Kajjo]

9 minutes ago, Wik said:

Defeating and or surviving the NK is the REAL issue and the real test.

This is right. 

The Song of Ice and Fire is not predominantly about the Iron throne, while the title Game of Thrones suggests that it is more about intrigues and battles to sit the throne. So, in summary, there are to main plot lines:

(1) Ice and Fire, the Wall, all about Nightking, Children of the Forest, Long Nights, Nissa nissa, Lightbringer ... and hopefully Life defeating Death, a future for mankind. This is the plot line of Bran and partly of Jon Snow. This plot line eventually emerged as the greatest threat and the main issue. However, this built up seven seasons long.

(2) The competition for the Iron throne, which has been the main motive in seven seasons for two major plot lines and the majority of screen minutes, i.e. Daenerys and King's Landing (the latter as summary term for Cersei, Sansa, Tyrell, Dorne, Tyrion plot lines). 

So yes, several episodes we understood the importance of issue 1, but the majority of screen minutes occupied us with issue 2. And certainly, as soon as issue 1 is resolved, issue 2 is the only one that counts -- once more.

17 minutes ago, Wik said:

The IT is a symbol of Aegon and the Targs. It's just that. A symbol.

Yes, and that's one of the points why it has to go, if we want a stop to this silly "who sits the throne". The Iron throne is a Targaryen symbol and it is nonsense that Robert Baratheon did not destroy it in the first place. 

I see the endgame something like "IT created by dragon fire, IT will be destroyed by dragonfire" and than established a different order of ruling.

[Wik]

3 minutes ago, Kajjo said:

This is right. 

The Song of Ice and Fire is not predominantly about the Iron throne, while the title Game of Thrones suggests that it is more about intrigues and battles to sit the throne. So, in summary, there are to main plot lines:

(1) Ice and Fire, the Wall, all about Nightking, Children of the Forest, Long Nights, Nissa nissa, Lightbringer ... and hopefully Life defeating Death, a future for mankind. This is the plot line of Bran and partly of Jon Snow. This plot line eventually emerged as the greatest threat and the main issue. However, this built up seven seasons long.

(2) The competition for the Iron throne, which has been the main motive in seven seasons for two major plot lines and the majority of screen minutes, i.e. Daenerys and King's Landing (the latter as summary term for Cersei, Sansa, Tyrell, Dorne, Tyrion plot lines). 

So yes, several episodes we understood the importance of issue 1, but the majority of screen minutes occupied us with issue 2. And certainly, as soon as issue 1 is resolved, issue 2 is the only one that counts -- once more.

Yes, and that's one of the points why it has to go, if we want a stop to this silly "who sits the throne". The Iron throne is a Targaryen symbol and it is nonsense that Robert Baratheon did not destroy it in the first place. 

I see the endgame something like "IT created by dragon fire, IT will be destroyed by dragonfire" and than established a different order of ruling.

I would argue that what you put forth as the "2nd" plot is a subplot used to teach us the world, the people the layout of things, the normal "human" way of life, but the over arching issue of the NK is the main plot, and the sub plot shrinks in significance when compared.  The NK plot shows us LITERALLY how dumb and pointless and insignificant the scheming of lords and ladies is in the overall scheme of the world (where previously it had been a main focus). 

All of the people you named as "King's Landing" and IT plot characters are now neck deep in the real plot, the NK. 

It's hard to liken an apocalyptic event to a real life event, but for the sake of argument, it would be like saying after Pearl Harbor was bombed and we (the United States) defeated Japan, we should have destroyed Washington DC and made our new capital in Iowa because...... (If we move the capital to Iowa and changed our political system, no one will ever attack us again and we will have a thousand years of peace because no one would ever dare to be devious in the future). I mean that sounds ludicrous.....

Also, think of this...GRRM has said he took alot of his early inspiration from the War of the Roses. After that war, did England install a new king? Or did they blow up the seat of the previous monarchs and make sweeping governmental changes, yank power from all of the lords of England and hold hands all across the lands with the commoners? 

[Wik]

25 minutes ago, Xemi said:

Minor correction, but it was only hundred of years.

 

Fully agree with the rest of your post, though.

Hahah MY BAD! I got carried away 

[Xemi]

To the people saying the IT will be destroyed:

a) If you're saying the actual, physical throne will be destroyed to be replaced with a normal throne or whatever... sure, it may happen.

b) If you're saying that Westeros is no longer going to be a monarchy and that it's suddenly going to become a republic, democracy, or something along those lines... keep dreaming.

[House Cambodia]

1 hour ago, Xemi said:

To the people saying the IT will be destroyed:

a) If you're saying the actual, physical throne will be destroyed to be replaced with a normal throne or whatever... sure, it may happen.

b) If you're saying that Westeros is no longer going to be a monarchy and that it's suddenly going to become a republic, democracy, or something along those lines... keep dreaming.

And if the NK is the ultimate victor, what mode of politics would you describe it as? Not sure 'monarchy' works just because he's been given the moniker 'Night's KING"!

[Wik]

3 hours ago, House Cambodia said:

And if the NK is the ultimate victor, what mode of politics would you describe it as? Not sure 'monarchy' works just because he's been given the moniker 'Night's KING"!

Well, I still have to side with Xemi here because I don't think the NK will be converting to a republic or democracy.....and I mean lets face it, he SEEMS pretty benevolent to his followers.........

[CrypticWeirwood]

On 4/23/2019 at 2:18 PM, Simon Tam said:

I am afraid there is no end that will satisfy me, but there are at least some developments I would prefer to others:

* Melisandre coming back to do/bring something good/useful/strong which is not a deus ex machina.

I’m thinking she’d count as a dea ex machina, not a deus ex machina.

[House Cambodia]

16 hours ago, Wik said:

Well, I still have to side with Xemi here because I don't think the NK will be converting to a republic or democracy.....and I mean lets face it, he SEEMS pretty benevolent to his followers.........

Well the chap doesn't seem to die, so maybe a THEOCRACY?

[Rose of Red Lake]

Valyrians: built their empire on fire and blood. Ended in fire and blood.

Targaryens: built their empire on fire and blood. Will end in fire and blood.

[RetconKillah]

I was a hardcore fan of Lost and will always be scarred by its ending.

That being said all I would like some explanation about the WW and their intentions to the point where I can hopefully understand them beyond killing machines created by COtF or some sort of time correction in Westeros (see Lost has still stuck with me).

I'd actually like to see the return of magic though. Westeros/Essos seems to be locked in development hell, if this is continuing then magic should be back, not fully accessible, but for people to know that magic is real and does exist and flourishes more than before.

 

 

 

[Kajjo]

On 4/9/2019 at 6:18 PM, Kajjo said:

All White walkers and wights should die in the moment the Night King dies. Loudest battle clamour, suddenly utter silence. The great war is over. But of course the South is still holding up... the next war to come.

My prediction from #2 came true.

Wonderful. Good scene. Makes sense. And E4 preview shows the second line will come true, too.

[The Sunland Lord]

Cersei get eaten alive by Nymeria, and then the she-pup takes the Cerseidump in a river. This and nothing less will make me happy.