By Everam’s will; a re-read of the Demon cycle:

[polishgenius]

Yeah, but even setting aside whether the BG was simply unleashing his tendencies (the first rape we see is distinctly personal) my problem isn't with the motivation but with the way it's used narratively, and that's precisely the problem, that rape is Stover's tool for showing this person is now Xtra Xtra Bad).

Man, Long Price is soooooooo goooooooooooood as well. In many ways those two quartets are in totally different sometimes quite opposite ways the pinnacle of modern fantasy for me.

[Rhom]

59 minutes ago, polishgenius said:

Yeah, but even setting aside whether the BG was simply unleashing his tendencies (the first rape we see is distinctly personal) my problem isn't with the motivation but with the way it's used narratively, and that's precisely the problem, that rape is Stover's tool for showing this person is now Xtra Xtra Bad).

Man, Long Price is soooooooo goooooooooooood as well. In many ways those two quartets are in totally different sometimes quite opposite ways the pinnacle of modern fantasy for me.

I do love Long Price.  Its a good slow burn.

[IlyaP]

11 hours ago, polishgenius said:

Yeah, but even setting aside whether the BG was simply unleashing his tendencies (the first rape we see is distinctly personal) my problem isn't with the motivation but with the way it's used narratively, and that's precisely the problem, that rape is Stover's tool for showing this person is now Xtra Xtra Bad).

So I can know where to look out for it during my re-read (I haven't read BoT since it came out back in 2001 or so): I'm currently at the Berne Zombie Pyre scene. My iPad mini is telling me I'm 53% of the way through the book - at the start of chapter 12. 

[IlyaP]

10 hours ago, Rhom said:

I do love Long Price.  Its a good slow burn.

I'm about to begin An Autumn War, which I am told is breath-taking. (I'm jumping between Abraham and Stover and a book on historiography, which makes, as I like to move between different texts depending on my head-space, number of spoons, and time of day.)

[Werthead]

On 4/18/2019 at 10:31 PM, Varysblackfyre321 said:

This coming from a man who enjoyed the Prince of Thorns which features its 15 year old male protagonist and his followers sexually assaulting women within the first couple of chapters, and whose literally stated to have all his sexual conquests prior to paying a prostitute being sexual assault. What are your specific problems in Desert Spear? I’m not going to pretend there’s no problems there(and there are certainly problems). Just curious on how you see this as worse than prince of thorns in terms of depicting sexual assault.

In Prince of Thorns the rape is inferred and happens off-page, which is not the case in Brett's books. The "Prince of Thorns has lots of rape in it" was a bit of a pre-release meme encouraged by a single, appalling pre-release review which simply lied about the content and swiftly died once the book came out and people realised it was bullshit (and Lawrence still gets stick for it now, notably from people who've never read the books). Which isn't to say that Broken Empire doesn't have its own, other problems, but that one was blown out of proportion, especially the amount of coverage Lawrence got for it when the far, far-worse Brett got relatively little.

Stover, Martin and Erikson have handled it clumsily and without much sensitivity (Erikson handled it better with Felisin and the psychological fallout, but other characters less well so, with the nadir in the treatment of Hetan), but they certainly weren't using it as clumsily as Brett. Brett's books are far more focused on a much smaller cast than Martin and Erikson as well, which makes the problem stand out much more; if ASoIaF was written by Brett, then every single female POV character would have suffered some kind of sexual trauma (rather than one).

I generally think this is something female writers handle much better than men: Hobb and Elliott both use the trope in a much more mature, considered and careful manner.

[Varysblackfyre321]

On 4/22/2019 at 2:43 AM, Werthead said:

In Prince of Thorns the rape is inferred and happens off-page, which is not the case in Brett's books. 

You’re mistaken. When rape does happen in the Demon cycle it typically does happen off-page, and yes inferred. For example Hasik’s rape of Jardir. We don’t actually see it. We see Hasik announce his intent to do so, but before actually does it cuts to Jardair reeling from the attack. We see Inerva stumble across Hasik immediately after the assault, and Jardir devastated about what happened to. But Brett doesn’t show the rape. Same thing with Harl and all his daughters.  We only hear of him sexually assaulting, Renna’s sisters. And when it comes to Renna, she too is raped off-page. Leesha’s assault as well. The immediate scene after meeting the bandits simply showcasing with the Bandits gloating about having assaulted Leesha.  When the Kaisans took Fort Rizon, Jardir heard the screams of women being sexually assaulted in the distance of the Duke’s palace but wasn’t made to see it as to give details to the reader. 

On 4/22/2019 at 2:43 AM, Werthead said:

The "Prince of Thorns has lots of rape in it" was a bit of a pre-release meme encouraged by a single, appalling pre-release review which simply lied about the content and swiftly died once the book came out and people realised it was bullshit (and Lawrence still gets stick for it now, notably from people who've never read the books).

Yeah my point  wasn’t “the prince of Thorn of has lots of rape in it and that’s bad” it was Lawrence’s use of rape is worse than Brett’s. The first introduction of it serves no real end other than to highlight a fact anyone who read 3 pages of the book could get; that the protagonist is a really bad guy. It’s as eye-rolling as when rape is only introduced to showcase the protagonist is a really good guy. 

 

 

[Varysblackfyre321]

14 hours ago, Werthead said:

if ASoIaF was written by Brett, then every single female POV character would have suffered some kind of sexual trauma (rather than one).

I don’t really really think so but why would the POV characters experiencing sexual abuse be worse than all the other sexual abuse we see non-POV characters go through on page? And not  just one. Cersi was raped by Robert, and Sansa stripped in public, Briene was nearly gang-raped, and Daenerys had her nipples pinched by her brother and for male pov-charachters who suffered sexual trauma theres Theon who was literally forced by Ramsey to perform cunnilingus on Jeyne Poole and Jon who, was implicitly threatened with death if he didn't have sex with Ygritte to show he was truly a turncoat and Tyrion who at the ripe old age of 13 was forced to participate in the gang-rape of his week fe.  

[Rhom]

16 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

I don’t really really think so but why would the POV characters experiencing sexual abuse be worse than all the other sexual abuse we see non-POV characters go through on page? And not  just one. Cersi was raped by Robert, and Sansa stripped in public, Briene was nearly gang-raped, and Daenerys had her nipples pinched by her brother and for male pov-charachters who suffered sexual trauma theres Theon who was literally forced by Ramsey to perform cunnilingus on Jeyne Poole and Jon who, was implicitly threatened with death if he didn't have sex with Ygritte to show he was truly a turncoat and Tyrion who at the ripe old age of 13 was forced to participate in the gang-rape of his week fe.  

Don’t forget Lollys.  (Wasn’t that her name?)

[Varysblackfyre321]

And done with the main series. Mostly satisfied. I found the talk of the Kaisan nobility being more accustomed to greater finery for their  decour. Like the north is richer, so why shouldn’t the nobles have better carpets, bigger manses, and greater manses? Makes no sense to me.

 Skull throne seems unneeded; in that the most important bits don’t necessitate an entire book, like they could have just been apart of the start of “The core”. Asvia’s flashbacks really didn’t offer anything important about her or other character we didn’t mostly gleam already. 

On 4/23/2019 at 4:31 AM, Rhom said:

Don’t forget Lollys.  (Wasn’t that her name?)

I think I see your issue with Lolly’s gangrape but  she’s not a POV-character; I was specifically trying to demonstrate that more than just one POV-character in AsOIAF has experienced sexual abuse.