Cersei and the Mad King

[CAllDSmith]

20 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

She’s not a genius imo. She’s clever, sometimes, in a very manipulative and self-serving manner. Regarding Jaime’s appointment to the KG, and whether Cersei played any part in it... I think she did, yes, but not by having sex w/ Aerys (in part b/c of the reasons I stated up thread). But being at court and being clever and manipulative, and knowing both that Aerys was super paranoid and not Tywin’s biggest fan, it wouldn’t have been out of the realm of possibility to create a scenario where Aerys or someone close-ish to him would overhear things... like, “oh my father would be absolutely livid if Jaime were to join the KG”. Mind you, I’m sort of simplifying here, just to give an idea of how it would be possible for her to have played a part w/o having sex w/ Aerys. 

So I was being super sarcastic about the genius thing. I absolutely cannot stand how stupid she is. I honestly don't think she would be clever enough to have even realized how Jaime's appointment would make Tywin feel. 

 

18 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

But the Jaime thing only worked because Tywin did not find out until after everything was settled - which means they must have prepared the whole thing meticulously. And neither Cersei nor Aerys II have the ability or character traits for the execution of such a meticulous plan. It is very likely that Aerys II very much liked the idea of stealing Tywin's heir when the idea was presented to him, but he wouldn't have concerned himself with the details - he never did.

You make a lot of very good points there and I agree just about all of it at least a little bit. Though I do have a question for you. Cersei says that she thought that Varys (Does it ever get weird, people talking to you about him btw?) was her best friend when she came to court but eventually learned differently. Do you think this might indicate that on some level Cersei has realized how stupid making Jaime join the Kingsguard was? 

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, CAllDSmith said:

You make a lot of very good points there and I agree just about all of it at least a little bit. Though I do have a question for you. Cersei says that she thought that Varys (Does it ever get weird, people talking to you about him btw?) was her best friend when she came to court but eventually learned differently. Do you think this might indicate that on some level Cersei has realized how stupid making Jaime join the Kingsguard was? 

I don't really identify as much with the eunuch as the name implies. I just thought one should get a nickname from the actual work when discussing things in a forum, and I'm rather obsessed with gathering knowledge on my little hobbies, so...

Certainly. Cersei should have realized that this had been stupid at once when Tywin and she left court. However, there has been speculation that part of Cersei's own hidden agenda there was actually removing Jaime as heir to Casterly Rock so that she could eventually inherit her father's lordship. Tyrion would never be Tywin's heir, that was clear.

But I guess Cersei only realized that Varys was not her best friend when she found out that befriending everyone and doing them little favors was part of the game he played with all the courtiers. A person as self-absorbed as Cersei would have been deeply hurt by such a 'betrayal of trust'.

I can imagine that Cersei actually confessed to Varys her feelings for Jaime and the idea to have him join the KG grew from the fact that she wanted him close and was devastated when she learned (possibly from Varys, too, or by overhearing her father) that Jaime was supposed to marry Lysa Tully. She couldn't have that, either.

The way to manipulate Cersei best is to give her way to fulfill her own desires while getting her to do something stupid in the process.

[kissdbyfire]

2 hours ago, CAllDSmith said:

So I was being super sarcastic about the genius thing. I absolutely cannot stand how stupid she is. I honestly don't think she would be clever enough to have even realized how Jaime's appointment would make Tywin feel.

Well, that's a relief... sarcasm doesn't always translate well in writing, and some of the opinions I've seen here make me think anything is possible!

[the conquering bastard 25]

this might be an unpopular idea but I always thought that the person pulling Cersei string in terms of her getting Jamie to agree to the KG we Rhaella.

Cersei could have been used by Rhaella just like Cersei would later use Sansa. Using the crowned Prince as bait. 

remember after duskendale Aerys was paranoid by his son, hand and wife. Given we know so little about Rhaella her assisting her eldest son in a potential coup against a brother and husband she doesn't like or love isn't that big of a stretch.

Also we know Rhaella isn't completely devoid of political ability as soon as KL fell and word of Aerys death she crowned Viserys on Dragonstone.

it's always been my thought that the Prince and Queen used Cersei to remove the West from the  war table and a potential royal marriage by making Tywin to choose. Because as it a been stated in the books what one king does another can undo. So The on could either have his perfect heir Jamie back released from the KG and able to take his place as LP of the West or he.Can have Cersei betrothed to Viserys.

that's part of my two cents

[Hugorfonics]

9 hours ago, CAllDSmith said:

So I was being super sarcastic about the genius thing. I absolutely cannot stand how stupid she is. I honestly don't think she would be clever enough to have even realized how Jaime's appointment would make Tywin feel. 

Man, fuck Tywins feelings lol. She was 12, a frightened child in a mad kings court. Not much different then Sansa, she probably wanted her heroic brother to look after her. At 15 shes like Margaery age and old enough to scheme. (With incestuous family)

9 hours ago, CAllDSmith said:

You make a lot of very good points there and I agree just about all of it at least a little bit. Though I do have a question for you. Cersei says that she thought that Varys (Does it ever get weird, people talking to you about him btw?) was her best friend when she came to court but eventually learned differently. Do you think this might indicate that on some level Cersei has realized how stupid making Jaime join the Kingsguard was? 

I dont think we should assume 12-15 Cersei is what shes referring to and not when she arrived to Robert. But maybe.

And, I doubt it. Lady be vain.

8 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Certainly. Cersei should have realized that this had been stupid at once when Tywin and she left court. However, there has been speculation that part of Cersei's own hidden agenda there was actually removing Jaime as heir to Casterly Rock so that she could eventually inherit her father's lordship. Tyrion would never be Tywin's heir, that was clear.

Lol, I like it. But I doubt it. It may have been clear to Tywin, but if Cersei was 15 then the Imp was a child, I dont think itd have been that clear to Cersei. But, maybe, he did kill Joanna

8 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

But I guess Cersei only realized that Varys was not her best friend when she found out that befriending everyone and doing them little favors was part of the game he played with all the courtiers. A person as self-absorbed as Cersei would have been deeply hurt by such a 'betrayal of trust'.

I can imagine that Cersei actually confessed to Varys her feelings for Jaime and the idea to have him join the KG grew from the fact that she wanted him close and was devastated when she learned (possibly from Varys, too, or by overhearing her father) that Jaime was supposed to marry Lysa Tully. She couldn't have that, either.

I really doubt that. Shes not that stupid. Remember when Joanna separated them into different rooms or something? 

Alright, twincest. So Jaimes a squire at 11 and KG at 15. In between they meet, scheme, twincest, classic Lannister stuff. So, were they virgins? When Joanna shooed them off in opposite directions with a broom or something, they werent banging. How old were they? Can 11 year olds actually bang? I mean that was the plan for Sansa so maybe Cersei too, but can a boy?

Lets say yes. But 10? 9? We gotta stop somewhere. So at 11 hes in the kingswood forest, and the only one to share his bed is Merrett Frey, fastforward 4 years. He arrives in KL and Cersei throws herself at him. She knew what she was doing.

Jaime is more faithful then Eddard was, Cersei is not. Robert Lancel Osmound and Aerys for all I know. 

Its a fun theory. But I agree with @LV,  that it would have been at least hinted at in her thoughts, otherwise, fun theory. 

[Lord Varys]

55 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Lol, I like it. But I doubt it. It may have been clear to Tywin, but if Cersei was 15 then the Imp was a child, I dont think itd have been that clear to Cersei. But, maybe, he did kill Joanna.

That's not a question. Tyrion isn't Tywin's heir. Everybody knows that, considering that Tyrion actually demands to be acknowledged heir and his coldly refused in ASoS. He should be Tywin's heir as his only son legally entitled to inherit but he simply isn't. Tywin has no one named heir in Tyrion's place, sure, but Cersei's chance to claim Casterly Rock are infinitely better than Tyrion's once she has actually become queen.

55 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

I really doubt that. Shes not that stupid. Remember when Joanna separated them into different rooms or something? 

Sure, but what do you think Cersei would tell her best friend at a rather vulnerable and young age? And do keep in mind that Varys obviously did for Tyrion and Tywin both in the Shae department.

[Hugorfonics]

33 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

That's not a question. Tyrion isn't Tywin's heir. Everybody knows that, considering that Tyrion actually demands to be acknowledged heir and his coldly refused in ASoS.

I disagree. Tyrion is Tywins lawful heir, Tywin making a speech wouldn't change anything but help Tyrions stunted ego.

33 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

He should be Tywin's heir as his only son legally entitled to inherit but he simply isn't. 

The thing about inheritance is your not there to facilitate it. Robert named Joffrey his heir along with some other stuff that Cersei ripped up. The king is dead. And law states, despite what some dead dude said, Stannis is king. No iffs ands or buts, first son followed by the first sons first son and so forth. 

33 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Tywin has no one named heir in Tyrion's place, sure, but Cersei's chance to claim Casterly Rock are infinitely better than Tyrion's once she has actually become queen.

Like queen under Robert? Nah. Queen under Tommen sure. But Tyrions chances will improve greatly again when the second sons open the doors for him

33 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Sure, but what do you think Cersei would tell her best friend at a rather vulnerable and young age? And do keep in mind that Varys obviously did for Tyrion and Tywin both in the Shae department.

Tyrion and Tywin, not Sansa and Margery. First of all, like I said above, im not sure how intimate the 11 years olds were. Secondly I think Cersei still has ptsd from being separated from Jaime and that would still be fresh in her mind.

I dont think Cersei fucked Aerys, so I agree that in order for her to pull strings to get Jaime in white she must have gone through Varys. However I doubt she confessed, Varys probably found out the old fashioned way, look through a hole in the wall

[Lord Varys]

2 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

I disagree. Tyrion is Tywins lawful heir, Tywin making a speech wouldn't change anything but help Tyrions stunted ego.

No, it is quite clear now - and always has been under the surface - that heirs are named and acknowledged by the men who use them as heirs. If they don't do that then you are no heir. You are just a person who thinks for a number of reasons that he or she should have been the heir and now deserves to claim or succeed to the lordship. But that's being a claimant, not an heir. An heir is treated as an heir, is groomed and prepared to rule, or at least publicly declared or confirmed as heir. If he is not, then he is not the heir.

And Tyrion is most definitely not the heir to Casterly Rock. He has a legal claim to Casterly Rock, but he is not the heir. And nobody ever addressed or acknowledged him as heir to Casterly Rock, most especially not any members of House Lannister or of the nobility of West.

As long as Tywin had no officially acknowledged heir Tyrion had still not that bad a shot at laying claim to Casterly Rock after his father's death, but had Tywin ever made up his mind to find a replacement for Jaime - and it seems, I'd think, that Tommen was supposed to be a potential such replacement before he became king - he would fixed things to ensure that Tyrion would never inherit Casterly Rock. He made that very, very clear in ASoS.

2 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

The thing about inheritance is your not there to facilitate it. Robert named Joffrey his heir along with some other stuff that Cersei ripped up. The king is dead. And law states, despite what some dead dude said, Stannis is king. No iffs ands or buts, first son followed by the first sons first son and so forth.

Not sure why Stannis' then isn't king ;-)?

2 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Like queen under Robert? Nah. Queen under Tommen sure. But Tyrions chances will improve greatly again when the second sons open the doors for him.

No, because should have the succession of Casterly Rock should have been contested during the reign of Robert - say, because Tywin had suddenly died without naming an heir - then it would have fallen to the king to settle such a dispute. And Robert would have had a vested and very obvious to grant Casterly Rock to his own wife - and thus by extension to himself - rather than his dwarf brother-in-law. The Crown is hugely in debt and adding the gold of Casterly Rock to his own wealth would have resolved all such problems.

Robert would have been under no obligation to actually support Tyrion's claim. And we can be pretty sure that there are a lot of precedents where dwarfs, cripples, lackwits, and other freaks are passed over in succession. I mean, honestly, who wants to bent the knee and do homage to an ugly dwarf? Who wants to fight for such a creature, wants to fight for him, do anything in his name?

The sad reason is: Tyrion owes his place in life completely to his father and his reputation. Tyrion can sit at the high table and fill crucial offices and such because he is the son of the great Lord Tywin. Without that he would be nothing, forced to live like Penny and Groat. And he finally starts to realize that in ADwD. If Tywin had been more like Tytos, say, Tyrion would have been never treated as respectfully as he is. Tywin always made very sure that the world knew that Tyrion was a Lannister of Casterly Rock. Not his heir, but a Lannister of Casterly Rock still.

2 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Tyrion and Tywin, not Sansa and Margery. First of all, like I said above, im not sure how intimate the 11 years olds were. Secondly I think Cersei still has ptsd from being separated from Jaime and that would still be fresh in her mind.

Oh, they may have met again occasionally while Jaime was visiting during his time as a squire. They were not necessarily separated for years without seeing each other at all.

2 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

I dont think Cersei fucked Aerys, so I agree that in order for her to pull strings to get Jaime in white she must have gone through Varys. However I doubt she confessed, Varys probably found out the old fashioned way, look through a hole in the wall.

Oh, that's possible, too. I just like the idea that Varys may have helped her arrange the meeting with Jaime. After all, it would have been very dangerous and crucial that nobody figures out their incestuous relationship. It could not have only destroyed them but also their father. And Tywin was not exactly popular with Aerys II or the king's cronies and courtiers on the council.

[Hugorfonics]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

No, it is quite clear now - and always has been under the surface - that heirs are named and acknowledged by the men who use them as heirs. If they don't do that then you are no heir. You are just a person who thinks for a number of reasons that he or she should have been the heir and now deserves to claim or succeed to the lordship. But that's being a claimant, not an heir. An heir is treated as an heir, is groomed and prepared to rule, or at least publicly declared or confirmed as heir. If he is not, then he is not the heir.

No, you've got it mixed up. A claimant is one who thinks they're entitled to succession, an heir is legally your first son and so on.

As far as groomed, he was given a job facilitating the sewers as a boy then made Hand (just like what daddy was famous for) and then placed on the SC. Tyrion was groomed like a horse.

Have all heirs been publicly declared? The only time we hear about that is with Tyrion. Have any(non royalty)? Like, when would Randyll declare Sam his heir, before the warlocks but after sleeping in armor? 

Quote

"You are almost a man grown now, and my heir," Lord Randyll Tarly had told his eldest son, his long knife laying bare the carcass as he spoke. "You have given me no cause to disown you, but neither will I allow you to inherit the land and title that should be Dickon's. Heartsbane must go to a man strong enough to wield her, and you are not worthy to touch her hilt. So I have decided that you shall this day announce that you wish to take the black. You will forsake all claim to your brother's inheritance and start north before evenfall.

Sam was heir, but now he said the words. Even a fat craven will give pause when it comes to reconstructing the heir. The laws the law.

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

And Tyrion is most definitely not the heir to Casterly Rock. He has a legal claim to Casterly Rock, but he is not the heir. And nobody ever addressed or acknowledged him as heir to Casterly Rock, most especially not any members of House Lannister or of the nobility of West.

Maybe. We arent privy to most things said in the past 20 something years. There is this

Quote

Tyrion is Tywin's son, not you. I said so once to your father's face, and he would not speak to me for half a year.

Tywins son is a strong way of saying Tywins heir, good enough reason for Tywin to get mad for 6 months. 

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

As long as Tywin had no officially acknowledged heir Tyrion had still not that bad a shot at laying claim to Casterly Rock after his father's death, but had Tywin ever made up his mind to find a replacement for Jaime - and it seems, I'd think, that Tommen was supposed to be a potential such replacement before he became king - he would fixed things to ensure that Tyrion would never inherit Casterly Rock. He made that very, very clear in ASoS.

And Tyrion killed him but aside, he tried to bribe him with the north. Tywin knew he was on shaky ground. 

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Not sure why Stannis' then isn't king ;-)?

Cute. He is king. Lawful heir of all that, despite Joffrey being named heir. 

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

No, because should have the succession of Casterly Rock should have been contested during the reign of Robert - say, because Tywin had suddenly died without naming an heir - then it would have fallen to the king to settle such a dispute. And Robert would have had a vested and very obvious to grant Casterly Rock to his own wife - and thus by extension to himself - rather than his dwarf brother-in-law. The Crown is hugely in debt and adding the gold of Casterly Rock to his own wealth would have resolved all such problems.

Robert would have been under no obligation to actually support Tyrion's claim. And we can be pretty sure that there are a lot of precedents where dwarfs, cripples, lackwits, and other freaks are passed over in succession. I mean, honestly, who wants to bent the knee and do homage to an ugly dwarf? Who wants to fight for such a creature, wants to fight for him, do anything in his name?

Wildlings, sellswords and Bronn. Lol not a great list but its growing. Tyrion has merit, hes good at his job. 

Is there precedent? Why wasnt Tyrion taught this when he learned from Tywins maester? Theres precedent of dwarves being left to die in the dothraki sea, but not the rock.

As far as all this Robert stuff goes, I dont like getting into what ifs because it can be terribly confusing. With Tyrion vs new heir would come war, and with war comes ironborn dornishmen and the GC. So who knows would happen

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

The sad reason is: Tyrion owes his place in life completely to his father and his reputation. Tyrion can sit at the high table and fill crucial offices and such because he is the son of the great Lord Tywin. Without that he would be nothing, forced to live like Penny and Groat. And he finally starts to realize that in ADwD. If Tywin had been more like Tytos, say, Tyrion would have been never treated as respectfully as he is. Tywin always made very sure that the world knew that Tyrion was a Lannister of Casterly Rock. Not his heir, but a Lannister of Casterly Rock still.

Sure. They're all a bunch of spoiled noble brats waiting for the revolution

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Oh, they may have met again occasionally while Jaime was visiting during his time as a squire. They were not necessarily separated for years without seeing each other at all.

Oh, that's possible, too. I just like the idea that Varys may have helped her arrange the meeting with Jaime. After all, it would have been very dangerous and crucial that nobody figures out their incestuous relationship. It could not have only destroyed them but also their father. And Tywin was not exactly popular with Aerys II or the king's cronies and courtiers on the council.

Yea, good point.

Its totally possible that Cersei went to Varys to obtain the smallfolk drags she visited Jaime in. But its also possible that thats a turn on for him and she knew that, either way, Varys was looking through a hole in the wall lol. So, yea, he totally knew

[Lord Varys]

33 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

No, you've got it mixed up. A claimant is one who thinks they're entitled to succession, an heir is legally your first son and so on.

No, an heir is the guy you have named your heir. Usually that's your firstborn son but not always. Tywin's heir always was Jaime. He was his firstborn, and he never acknowledged that him joining the KG prevented him from succeeding to Casterly Rock.

33 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

As far as groomed, he was given a job facilitating the sewers as a boy then made Hand (just like what daddy was famous for) and then placed on the SC. Tyrion was groomed like a horse.

Tyrion was never groomed for anything important. And he only ended up in high office because Tywin thought he had lost Jaime - and even then he was determined to never allow him to soil the seat of the Lords of Casterly Rock with his ass.

33 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Have all heirs been publicly declared? The only time we hear about that is with Tyrion. Have any(non royalty)? Like, when would Randyll declare Sam his heir, before the warlocks but after sleeping in armor? 

Sam was heir, but now he said the words. Even a fat craven will give pause when it comes to reconstructing the heir. The laws the law.

Randyll very successfully neutralizes Sam as a potential heir. But Tyrion is not Tywin's firstborn son, is he? He is his second, and Tywin simply does not acknowledge that Jaime is no longer his heir, he has no reason to assume that Tyrion would ever pose a danger to Jaime. Perhaps he would have dealt with Tyrion the way Randyll dealt with Sam had he decided to name an heir that was not Jaime. But he never got around to do it.

But it is still clear that Tyrion really had no chance to lay claim to Casterly Rock against Cersei/Robert or even Kevan. He is nobody with no connections or power base in the West.

33 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Maybe. We arent privy to most things said in the past 20 something years. There is this

Tywins son is a strong way of saying Tywins heir, good enough reason for Tywin to get mad for 6 months.

Nobody ever doubted in this context that people saw Tyrion as Tywin's son. Not just as his heir.

33 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

And Tyrion killed him but aside, he tried to bribe him with the north. Tywin knew he was on shaky ground. 

No, if he had felt he was on shaky ground he would have long ago made Tyrion a maester, septon, black brother, or eunuch. He was very aware that Tyrion was not really a danger to his succession plans to Casterly Rock. Giving him Winterfell was a way to increase the power of Casterly Rock, of his branch of House Lannister, not a reward for Tyrion. Not to mention that it would have been a poisoned gift. I'm sure Tywin hoped the Northmen would finally rid him of Tyrion.

33 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Cute. He is king. Lawful heir of all that, despite Joffrey being named heir. 

In the books I'm reading Stannis is 'another doomed pretender' ;-).

33 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Wildlings, sellswords and Bronn. Lol not a great list but its growing. Tyrion has merit, hes good at his job.

All of which were only ever following because he was Tywin's son. Without Tywin and his gold Tyrion is nothing. He paid Bronn and the clansmen with Tywin's gold, if you recall. And he learned that he was nothing on his own the hard way in ADwD. What has he right now but a big mouth and empty pockets? Lies and empty promises can buy him time, but if he isn't taken in by Daenerys or her people he will end up a slave in some menagerie - again. He could also earn a living as a fool and jester, perhaps, but people like he will never rise high because of their own merit. Not without good connections and breeding - and he has neither in Essos, nor will he ever be able to return to Westeros without Daenerys or any other great power.

As accursed a criminal as Tyrion Lannister - looking the part of the vilest creature on earth - is most definitely not going to last more than five seconds on his own in Westeros were he to ever return.

33 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Is there precedent? Why wasnt Tyrion taught this when he learned from Tywins maester? Theres precedent of dwarves being left to die in the dothraki sea, but not the rock.

Oh, well, it is just speculation. Do you think there was ever King in the North who was a lackwit, freak, or dwarf? Or in any of the other kingdoms, especially in the old days where there was constant war? Tyrion leading an army or inspiring loyalty always was - and still is - a joke. There is a reason he is seen as the twisted little monkey demon - he looks the part, and that's enough for the society he lives in.

There were minor freaks like 'Queen Lorea' and stuff, but certainly no lackwits, dwarfs, or otherwise weirdo freaks that we know of. I mean, it is ridiculous to assume that Jaime/Cersei would have suffered it that Tyrion inherit Casterly Rock had he been the elder and they the younger siblings, right? Not to mention Tywin himself. A great house run by a dwarf who is likely to pass on his dwarfism to his children, making a laughingstock of the entire house would be impossible to conceive.

33 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

As far as all this Robert stuff goes, I dont like getting into what ifs because it can be terribly confusing. With Tyrion vs new heir would come war, and with war comes ironborn dornishmen and the GC. So who knows would happen.

It is pretty clear that the Crown does rule on succession struggles like that. Just take the Arryn succession struggle during the Regency of Aegon III, for instance. If there was trouble, Robert would settle Tywin's succession, and if he and Cersei wanted the Rock, they would get it, no one else. Or do you think the guy whose claim was supposedly a war hammer cares what a dwarf has to say about 'the law'?

33 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Sure. They're all a bunch of spoiled noble brats waiting for the revolution.

But the point is that Tyrion is entirely at the mercy of the fact that his father basically forced the world to treat him as a Lannister of Casterly Rock. Bran the Cripple is also never going to rule Winterfell never mind 'his claim' - because the Northmen will *never* bent the knee or do homage to a boy/man who cannot walk. Such a man cannot lead, cannot fight, is totally dependent on others. He is a shitty and unworthy lord by default. And Bran very much realizes how loathed he is by his dear brother's bannermen. They do not only despise and pity him, they actually resent the fact that a cripple like Bran is treated with more honor than they are. Being highborn is great, but if you are a highborn freak or cripple people will treat you as a freak and cripple, not as a highborn guy.

[CAllDSmith]

19 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Man, fuck Tywins feelings lol. She was 12, a frightened child in a mad kings court. Not much different then Sansa, she probably wanted her heroic brother to look after her. At 15 shes like Margaery age and old enough to scheme. (With incestuous family)

I dont think we should assume 12-15 Cersei is what shes referring to and not when she arrived to Robert. But maybe.

A 12-15 year old girl who had already murdered at least one person she called a friend and who knows what was in that potion she threw at Maggy.

[Dorian Martell's son]

On 4/8/2019 at 8:40 AM, CAllDSmith said:

What do you all think? 

we desperately need a second book so this forum can be used to discuss things that were actually in the books as opposed to fan fic 

[Hugorfonics]

21 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

No, an heir is the guy you have named your heir. Usually that's your firstborn son but not always. Tywin's heir always was Jaime. He was his firstborn, and he never acknowledged that him joining the KG prevented him from succeeding to Casterly Rock.

Jaime can't be a lord (without a kingly dismissal) so if Tywin never named an heir it will legally go to Tyrion. Like when Robb disinherited Sansa and had to write a will that dismissed and legitimized Jon. 

Without a will Robbs heir is naturally Sansa because that's the law. Just like without a will from Tywin his heir is naturally Tyrion

21 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Tyrion was never groomed for anything important. And he only ended up in high office because Tywin thought he had lost Jaime - and even then he was determined to never allow him to soil the seat of the Lords of Casterly Rock with his ass.

He was hand groomed to rule. There is literally no job with as much responsibility in the whole realm as acting hand. 

21 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Randyll very successfully neutralizes Sam as a potential heir. But Tyrion is not Tywin's firstborn son, is he? He is his second, and Tywin simply does not acknowledge that Jaime is no longer his heir, he has no reason to assume that Tyrion would ever pose a danger to Jaime. Perhaps he would have dealt with Tyrion the way Randyll dealt with Sam had he decided to name an heir that was not Jaime. But he never got around to do it.

It doesn't matter what Tywin acknowledges, he'll be dead. The realm however will still have laws. If Tywin Randylled Tyrion then itd be a different story, but he didn't. 

21 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

But it is still clear that Tyrion really had no chance to lay claim to Casterly Rock against Cersei/Robert or even Kevan. He is nobody with no connections or power base in the West.

Nobody ever doubted in this context that people saw Tyrion as Tywin's son. Not just as his heir.

Keaven was always nice to Tyrion. His other uncles are also remembered fondly. Lancel was a bit of an ass at first, but are all the other cousins? 

Dudes a Lannister, western raised. I assume hes got some pull around the Rock. I dont see it being clear.

21 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

No, if he had felt he was on shaky ground he would have long ago made Tyrion a maester, septon, black brother, or eunuch. He was very aware that Tyrion was not really a danger to his succession plans to Casterly Rock. 

Because hes an idiot? A great thundering fool as they say it. Tyrion is clever and spiteful, thats not the man you shrug off. 

Why did Randyll go hard? Hes on shaky ground with Samwell? Lol, ok. Even if Sam wasnt craven and morally capable of warring on his brother, his dad dont see that. Yet he still realized hes on shaky ground. 

Back to the Imp. Hes not Sam. Tywin perhaps thought of him as weak, but then why make him Hand? Simple explanation, he was an idiot. 

21 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Giving him Winterfell was a way to increase the power of Casterly Rock, of his branch of House Lannister, not a reward for Tyrion. Not to mention that it would have been a poisoned gift. I'm sure Tywin hoped the Northmen would finally rid him of Tyrion.

I always assumed Jeyne Poole was the poisoned gift. But maybe

21 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

In the books I'm reading Stannis is 'another doomed pretender' ;-).

Whos not?

21 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

All of which were only ever following because he was Tywin's son. Without Tywin and his gold Tyrion is nothing. He paid Bronn and the clansmen with Tywin's gold, if you recall. And he learned that he was nothing on his own the hard way in ADwD. What has he right now but a big mouth and empty pockets? Lies and empty promises can buy him time, but if he isn't taken in by Daenerys or her people he will end up a slave in some menagerie - again. He could also earn a living as a fool and jester, perhaps, but people like he will never rise high because of their own merit. Not without good connections and breeding - and he has neither in Essos, nor will he ever be able to return to Westeros without Daenerys or any other great power. guy.

I dont understand what your talking about. Varys would have slit his throat if he was unvaluable, but he sent him east. In adwd he proves his knowledge to halfmaester and allowed to meet Griff, then he proves himself to Jon who wanted to kill him on multiple chances. He moves foreign armies with the flick of a Cyvesse piece, causing KL to groan and Stormsend to fall. He also becomes lord of Castelry Rock in adwd. By became lord I mean addressed as lord by paymaster or someone, good start though. 

He don't need Dany, but shed help. Young Griff is like in love with him and Westeros is about to get pimpsmacked in 2 directions by the knights of Vale and Ironborn raiders. I have very little doubt that the Imps coming home.

21 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

As accursed a criminal as Tyrion Lannister - looking the part of the vilest creature on earth - is most definitely not going to last more than five seconds on his own in Westeros were he to ever return.

I dont know man. Cersei? Ironborn? Bolton? Frey. 

Theres always someone less pleasant

21 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Oh, well, it is just speculation. Do you think there was ever King in the North who was a lackwit, freak, or dwarf? Or in any of the other kingdoms, especially in the old days where there was constant war? Tyrion leading an army or inspiring loyalty always was - and still is - a joke. There is a reason he is seen as the twisted little monkey demon - he looks the part, and that's enough for the society he lives in.

There were minor freaks like 'Queen Lorea' and stuff, but certainly no lackwits, dwarfs, or otherwise weirdo freaks that we know of. I mean, it is ridiculous to assume that Jaime/Cersei would have suffered it that Tyrion inherit Casterly Rock had he been the elder and they the younger siblings, right? Not to mention Tywin himself. A great house run by a dwarf who is likely to pass on his dwarfism to his children, making a laughingstock of the entire house would be impossible to conceive.

What? So you have no proof but your going to double down?

Im not sure about king in the north (gotta be able to swing that sword, poor Sansa) but lord in the north? I can think of a couple lackwits, like Ned. 

It may be a joke to you, but Tyrion did lead armies, people did follow him to their death

21 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

It is pretty clear that the Crown does rule on succession struggles like that. Just take the Arryn succession struggle during the Regency of Aegon III, for instance. If there was trouble, Robert would settle Tywin's succession, and if he and Cersei wanted the Rock, they would get it, no one else. Or do you think the guy whose claim was supposedly a war hammer cares what a dwarf has to say about 'the law'?

Kinda. His brother does, so does Ned. And like I said, a usurpers seat is never truly secure. Targs and Martells or Ironborn and Blackfyres. Theyre all waiting to smell weakness, and a prolonged conflict in the west aint good for no one

21 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

But the point is that Tyrion is entirely at the mercy of the fact that his father basically forced the world to treat him as a Lannister of Casterly Rock. Bran the Cripple is also never going to rule Winterfell never mind 'his claim' - because the Northmen will *never* bent the knee or do homage to a boy/man who cannot walk. Such a man cannot lead, cannot fight, is totally dependent on others. He is a shitty and unworthy lord by default. And Bran very much realizes how loathed he is by his dear brother's bannermen. They do not only despise and pity him, they actually resent the fact that a cripple like Bran is treated with more honor than they are. Being highborn is great, but if you are a highborn freak or cripple people will treat you as a freak and cripple, not as a highborn guy.

Tell that to the smallfolk freaks and cripples. 

I think your wrong. The North is so mad at Frey Bolton and Lannister, theyll follow anyone with a direwolf

[Lord Varys]

5 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Jaime can't be a lord (without a kingly dismissal) so if Tywin never named an heir it will legally go to Tyrion. Like when Robb disinherited Sansit.it e had to write a will that dismissed and legitimized Jon. 

Without a will Robbs heir is naturally Sansa because that's the law. Just like without a will from Tywin his heir is naturally Tyrion.

Sorry, no. An heir is chosen. There is custom who you choose, but men who are not acknowledged heirs are not heirs. And where in the books is it ever said that Tyrion Lannister is heir to the Casterly Rock? Tyrion wants to be heir, but he is not. There is no indication that anyone saw him as the next Lord of Casterly Rock - is there? Nobody ever addressed him as such, nobody ever said he would one day sit where his father is sitting right now, not even the appendices mark Tyrion as heir to Casterly Rock, as they mark many other characters as heirs to various lordships.

This is not a world of 'the law'. If a man doesn't name and acknowledges and grooms and heir then whoever has a claim to the lordship will push that claim after his death. We see this in the Vale during the succession struggle there as well as right now with the succession of Rosby - Lord Gyles died without issue, but there is no magical law that tells everyone who must be his successor. Instead six claims to Rosby have been put forth, and King Tommen's council will have to rule on that succession.

5 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Keaven was always nice to Tyrion. His other uncles are also remembered fondly. Lancel was a bit of an ass at first, but are all the other cousins? 

Who cares about niceties? The Rock is the richest lordship in the Realm. Why should Kevan want Tyrion as his lord if he could be the lord himself? Kevan would do whatever he thought Tywin would want him to do - and Tywin never wanted that Tyrion succeed to Casterly Rock. So he would ensure that this *never happens*.

5 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Why did Randyll go hard? Hes on shaky ground with Samwell? Lol, ok. Even if Sam wasnt craven and morally capable of warring on his brother, his dad dont see that. Yet he still realized hes on shaky ground. 

I don't think Randyll sent Sam to the Wall to get rid of him as such, he just wanted to rid himself of this abominable son. A son who could, in due time, pose a danger to Dickon should he make some fortunate marriage or end up in the power of some rival of House Tarly. Unlike Tyrion, Samwell Tarly is not a hideous dwarf.

5 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Back to the Imp. Hes not Sam. Tywin perhaps thought of him as weak, but then why make him Hand? Simple explanation, he was an idiot. 

He had no one else. Tyrion himself realizes this. Tywin uses what he has, but he replaces ugly tools as soon as he can - which he did very effectively and meticulously upon his arrival in the city, no?

5 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

I always assumed Jeyne Poole was the poisoned gift. But maybe.

Jeyne and the Boltons were plan B. Plan A were Sansa and Tyrion, and we can say that Tywin was really looking forward to see a bunch of Stark-Lannister dwarfs failing in the North, so that a proper Lannister could take over.

5 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

I dont understand what your talking about. Varys would have slit his throat if he was unvaluable, but he sent him east. In adwd he proves his knowledge to halfmaester and allowed to meet Griff, then he proves himself to Jon who wanted to kill him on multiple chances. He moves foreign armies with the flick of a Cyvesse piece, causing KL to groan and Stormsend to fall. He also becomes lord of Castelry Rock in adwd. By became lord I mean addressed as lord by paymaster or someone, good start though. 

Well, I actually expect Varys to know that Tyrion is not Tywin's son. That changes things on a certain level. But Tyrion's main use is his dragon knowledge and his use as a pawn against the Lannisters - but that only works within a Targaryen restoration framework which can sell the regicide and patricide as a good thing. Tyrion on his own would never be able to sell anyone in the West that it was a great deed to murder King Joffrey or the great Lord Tywin. Should Tywin ever try to take over the West he'll likely end the way Dalton Greyjoy did. Somebody will cut his throat in his sleep, because he'll forever be hated and despised.

5 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

It may be a joke to you, but Tyrion did lead armies, people did follow him to their death.

The clanmen, you mean? They did follow him because Lord Tywin gave them armor and weapons. Had Tywin refused to do that they would have killed him - they even say so in the books. What do you think would happen if Tyrion had to bribe and buy people with the great promise to help him conquer the West and Casterly Rock so he can pay what he owed to them - against a proper golden-haired, handsome, and perhaps even popular Lannister who rules the West? Who would actually take him seriously then?

Nobody in KL actually truly followed Tyrion Lannister. They submitted to the rule of the Acting Hand - which means official power representing Tywin Lannister - the true Hand - and King Joffrey.

Tyrion always was spoiled child who went around and bought and intimidated and threatened people with his father's name and the power of his father's gold. How far such loyalty goes you see in ASoS when Bronn abandons him.

[Hugorfonics]

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

This is not a world of 'the law'. If a man doesn't name and acknowledges and grooms and heir then whoever has a claim to the lordship will push that claim after his death.

It is a world of law. Robb never names an heir so he goes about to disinherit Sansa and name an heir (we'll see how well that works)

Quote

"A king must have an heir. If I should die in my next battle, the kingdom must not die with me. By law Sansa is next in line of succession, so Winterfell and the north would pass to her." His mouth tightened. "To her, and her lord husband. Tyrion Lannister. I cannot allow that. I will not allow that. That dwarf must never have the north."

"No," Catelyn agreed. "You must name another heir, until such time as Jeyne gives you a son."

Similarly Stannis is Roberts heir, not Renly. Theres a clear and consistent line of succession that has nothing to do with grooming or acknowledgement.

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I don't think Randyll sent Sam to the Wall to get rid of him as such, he just wanted to rid himself of this abominable son. A son who could, in due time, pose a danger to Dickon should he make some fortunate marriage or end up in the power of some rival of House Tarly. Unlike Tyrion, Samwell Tarly is not a hideous dwarf.

So Tyrion is incapable of getting married? Hes been married twice lol

And thats not why Randyll sent Sam to the wall, it was all about his claim

On 4/10/2019 at 11:03 PM, Hugorfonics said:

"You have given me no cause to disown you, but neither will I allow you to inherit the land and title that should be Dickon's. Heartsbane must go to a man strong enough to wield her, and you are not worthy to touch her hilt.

 

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

He had no one else. Tyrion himself realizes this. Tywin uses what he has, but he replaces ugly tools as soon as he can - which he did very effectively and meticulously upon his arrival in the city, no?

Yea, Tywins a dick. I didnt mean to imply that Tyrion was being groomed for ruling just that he was groomed for ruling

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Tyrion on his own would never be able to sell anyone in the West that it was a great deed to murder King Joffrey or the great Lord Tywin. Should Tywin ever try to take over the West he'll likely end the way Dalton Greyjoy did. Somebody will cut his throat in his sleep, because he'll forever be hated and despised.

Its not about selling, its conquering. Did Lann convince Castelry to give him his Rock? And I dont believe that his cousins feel the same way about Tyrion as Cersei. 

And Dalton was a touch rapey, which is why he died. 

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

What do you think would happen if Tyrion had to bribe and buy people with the great promise to help him conquer the West and Casterly Rock so he can pay what he owed to them - against a proper golden-haired, handsome, and perhaps even popular Lannister who rules the West? Who would actually take him seriously then?

The Second fucking Sons man. Thats exactly what happened lol

[anjulibai]

Tywin made Tyrion Hand because deep down, Tywin knows that Tyrion is capable. He doesn't want to admit it, but he knows. Tyrion is like Tywin. It's the only reason Tyrion wasn't sent off to the Citadel, or the Wall, or the Faith. It's not a stupid move, else he'd have sent another, like Kevan. 

 

I want to point something out relating to this:

On 4/8/2019 at 11:40 AM, CAllDSmith said:

 

1. Cersei tells Sansa that women have two weapons, their tears and their vaginas. At this point Cersei would have had three mentioned partners: Jaime, Robert and Lancel. Lancel is the only one that she could have supposedly used her "second weapon" as a weapon on since she was avoiding Robert's bed. 

Cersei most certainly used her weapon on Jaime. It's how she got him to join the Kingsguard. Knowing Cersei, she would have used it on him many times. 

Besides that, having lived in Kingslanding for so long, she would have understood how the world worked for women. She no doubt observed many women over the years use sex to get what they want. It's not exactly a new concept in a cosmopolitan atmosphere, though it would be for the sheltered and relatively isolated Sansa.