Cersei and the Mad King

[CAllDSmith]

Okay so I'm just going to come out and say it: Who else thinks Cersei f*cked King Aerys?

I'm eating brunch between classes right now so I can't find all the exact quotes but I remember a Jaime chapter that makes it clear that him becoming KG was one of her many stupid plans to control Jaime's life. Something like her suggesting that he might be appointed so that they can stay close forever, but it also stops Jaime from marrying Lysa Tully. I remember there being something along the lines of "don't worry I'll handle everything." I know that the 'official' story is that Aerys did it to slight Tywin and rob him of his favorite heir, but I think there's some good arguments to be put forward that Cersei seducing Aerys is not out of the question. 

1. Cersei tells Sansa that women have two weapons, their tears and their vaginas. At this point Cersei would have had three mentioned partners: Jaime, Robert and Lancel. Lancel is the only one that she could have supposedly used her "second weapon" as a weapon on since she was avoiding Robert's bed. 
2. We know Aerys lusted after Joanna and Cersei probably looks like a hotter, younger version of her mother/first cousin-once-removed 
3. We know Aerys kept "turning Rhaella's ladies-in-waiting" into whores, and Cersei was somebody's lady-in-waiting at court. 
4. Cersei also has her stupid obsession with Rhaegar, so it wouldn't be out of character for her to think that if she screwed Aerys he might let her marry Rhaegar when Elia died. 

So with these reasons, and some more I can't remember, I think it isn't unlikely that Cersei screwed the Mad King in order to get him to name Jaime to the KG. (She certainly didn't screw Hightower to get him to recommend it.) 

What do you all think? 

[Aurane]

OK, there's a lot to unpack here. First, is her motive to make Jaime KG, and win his favor so that she can marry Rhaegar if she died? The Mad King would probably be dead by the time that Elia died of natural causes. Cercei is obsessed with maintaining her youth. I don't think that she'd have an endgame of marrying Rhaegar when she's elderly.

12 minutes ago, CAllDSmith said:

• We know Aerys kept "turning Rhaella's ladies-in-waiting" into whores, and Cersei was somebody's lady-in-waiting at court. 

You're theory seems to suggest that Cercei was doing this willingly. I'm pretty sure that his relations with the ladies in waiting were not consensual.

No, I think that Cercei resented the Mad King for denying her Rhaegar. She probably had a hatred of him as strong as her hate of Robert.

[CAllDSmith]

4 minutes ago, Aurane said:

OK, there's a lot to unpack here. First, is her motive to make Jaime KG, and win his favor so that she can marry Rhaegar if she died? The Mad King would probably be dead by the time that Elia died of natural causes. Cercei is obsessed with maintaining her youth. I don't think that she'd have an endgame of marrying Rhaegar when she's elderly.

You're theory seems to suggest that Cercei was doing this willingly. I'm pretty sure that his relations with the ladies in waiting were not consensual.

No, I think that Cercei resented the Mad King for denying her Rhaegar. She probably had a hatred of him as strong as her hate of Robert.

Elia very nearly died naturally in 280 and again in 282. She was small and not considered particularly healthy. It's been theorized that Tywin was waiting for that outcome or to betroth Cersei to Viserys. 

As for Aerys and consent, technically no person can properly give consent to a head of state. But the idea that he's consistently raping noble women makes no sense, particularly during years when he wasn't yet the "Mad King". Rhaella doesn't seem to be a victim-blamer like Randyll Tarly (and certainly knows the difference between rape and consent" so her quote about Aerys "turning her ladies into whores" makes no sense if he's actually raping them. 

[kissdbyfire]

Cersei was never Rhaella’s LiW. Tywin brought her to court, but she wasn’t part of the royal entourage. I don’t think she’s had sex w/ Aerys, but the text leaves it as a possibility. But, IMO, by the time she was there and old enough, Aerys was already super paranoid about everything and everyone, w/ Tywin possibly at the top of the list. 

Have lots more but literally running out the door. Will come back.

 

[Sigella]

Wasn't there something about Aerys at first turned Rhaella's ladies into whores, but after a while he stopped and stuck with only Rhaella because paranoia-something?

I can't find the quote.

 

Still can't find the quote but remembered that he stopped sleeping around before Viserys was born.

[Moiraine Sedai]

That's a hard secret to keep.  The lady of the court who might have been bedded by the king was Ashara.

[kissdbyfire]

53 minutes ago, Sigella said:

Wasn't there something about Aerys at first turned Rhaella's ladies into whores, but after a while he stopped and stuck with only Rhaella because paranoia-something?

I can't find the quote.

 

Still can't find the quote but remembered that he stopped sleeping around before Viserys was born.

TWoIaF, Aerys II

“Afterward, King Aerys fasted for a fortnight and made a walk of repentance across the city to the Great Sept, to pray with the High Septon. On his return, His Grace announced that henceforth he would sleep only with his lawful wife, Queen Rhaella. If the chronicles can be believed, Aerys remained true to this vow, losing all interest in the charms of women from that day in 275 AC.
His Grace’s new fidelity was apparently pleasing to the Mother Above, it must be said, for the following year, Queen Rhaella gave the king the second son that he had prayed for. Prince Viserys, born in 276 AC, was small but robust, and as beautiful a child as King’s Landing had ever seen. Though Prince Rhaegar at seventeen was everything that could be wanted in an heir apparent, all Westeros rejoiced to know that at last he had a brother, another Targaryen to secure the succession.”

 

[Karneol]

I think it took Cersei a while to master her womanly weapon.

Also it would be very suspious if Tywin Lannister daughter offers herself to Aerys. It was not like you could go to some steward say "I want to fuck the King" and then have a fixed date. Cersei would have to seduce the king and it would be really threw some unwanted attention to Cersei if she forces herself on the king.

The excuse for passing over Cersei was

Quote

You are my most able servant, Tywin,' the king said, 'but a man does not marry his heir to his servant's daughter

If he doesn't want to wed Rhaegar Tywins daughter because he is his servant, do you really think he will wed Rhaegar to his whore?

[Lord Varys]

While this is a theoretical possibility one imagines that Cersei would have thought about that in AFfC and ADwD, especially when she was thinking about all the men she had to take shit from. I mean the Aerys II of 281 AC would have been one of the worst sex partners any woman could have had, and if Cersei had subjected herself to this filthy creature with his claws and fits and weird tastes she would remember that until the end of her days. It would have been much worse than Robert or any other man she had to fuck in the meantime.

Not to mention that Aerys II actually taking on Cersei as a lover - if only for a night - should have caused him to command that she remain at court after Tywin left. The fact that this didn't happen strongly implies he never had any interest in her.

It is much more likely that Varys fed both Aerys II and Cersei the idea that Jaime should join the KG - likely to accomplish exactly what happened: to rid the court of Tywin without actually having Aerys II throw the first stone. Cersei tells Tyrion and the reader that she thought Varys was her best friend when she first came to court - which would have been then, under Aerys II - but we have yet to learn why she ever thought that and what Varys did to earn her trust.

One also could see Varys helping Cersei to arrange their clandestine sibling sex meeting - while one can see Cersei being smug and competent enough to sneak out of the castle, etc., it is a completely different level to actually hide an incest romance in a city with as many eyes and ears as KL. With Varys' help she could have ensured that her father's rivals on the Small Council - or King Aerys II himself - would never learn what had happened.

It is pretty clear that Aerys II and Tywin's rivals would have died to learn about the Jaime-Cersei affair, considering that the subsequent scandal would have been a (near) fatal blow to House Lannister. It would most definitely have destroyed Tywin and all his ambition, and would have very likely ended with the public execution of both Jaime and Cersei.

[X-Buster]

4 hours ago, Sigella said:

Wasn't there something about Aerys at first turned Rhaella's ladies into whores, but after a while he stopped and stuck with only Rhaella because paranoia-something?

I can't find the quote.

 

Still can't find the quote but remembered that he stopped sleeping around before Viserys was born.

This

[Sigella]

17 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

TWoIaF, Aerys II

“Afterward, King Aerys fasted for a fortnight and made a walk of repentance across the city to the Great Sept, to pray with the High Septon. On his return, His Grace announced that henceforth he would sleep only with his lawful wife, Queen Rhaella. If the chronicles can be believed, Aerys remained true to this vow, losing all interest in the charms of women from that day in 275 AC.
His Grace’s new fidelity was apparently pleasing to the Mother Above, it must be said, for the following year, Queen Rhaella gave the king the second son that he had prayed for. Prince Viserys, born in 276 AC, was small but robust, and as beautiful a child as King’s Landing had ever seen. Though Prince Rhaegar at seventeen was everything that could be wanted in an heir apparent, all Westeros rejoiced to know that at last he had a brother, another Targaryen to secure the succession.”

 

Thanks!

Well, depending on Viserys age (and the trustworthyness of the chronicles) we can rule out the premise that Cersei and Aerys had an affair.

[Bael's Bastard]

21 hours ago, CAllDSmith said:

Okay so I'm just going to come out and say it: Who else thinks Cersei f*cked King Aerys?

I'm eating brunch between classes right now so I can't find all the exact quotes but I remember a Jaime chapter that makes it clear that him becoming KG was one of her many stupid plans to control Jaime's life. Something like her suggesting that he might be appointed so that they can stay close forever, but it also stops Jaime from marrying Lysa Tully. I remember there being something along the lines of "don't worry I'll handle everything." I know that the 'official' story is that Aerys did it to slight Tywin and rob him of his favorite heir, but I think there's some good arguments to be put forward that Cersei seducing Aerys is not out of the question. 

1. Cersei tells Sansa that women have two weapons, their tears and their vaginas. At this point Cersei would have had three mentioned partners: Jaime, Robert and Lancel. Lancel is the only one that she could have supposedly used her "second weapon" as a weapon on since she was avoiding Robert's bed. 
2. We know Aerys lusted after Joanna and Cersei probably looks like a hotter, younger version of her mother/first cousin-once-removed 
3. We know Aerys kept "turning Rhaella's ladies-in-waiting" into whores, and Cersei was somebody's lady-in-waiting at court. 
4. Cersei also has her stupid obsession with Rhaegar, so it wouldn't be out of character for her to think that if she screwed Aerys he might let her marry Rhaegar when Elia died. 

So with these reasons, and some more I can't remember, I think it isn't unlikely that Cersei screwed the Mad King in order to get him to name Jaime to the KG. (She certainly didn't screw Hightower to get him to recommend it.) 

What do you all think? 

@CAllDSmith

I don't think it can be ruled out that Cersei slept with Aerys, especially not based on the word of a Maester Yandel who not only received most of his insights into the reign of Aerys from Grand Maester Pycelle, but is also editing for the eyes of King Tommen and the Lannisters (namely Cersei).

But Cersei wouldn't have had to sleep with Aerys to get him on board with the idea of adding Jaime to the Kingsguard. All she would have needed to do was say something to get him thinking about how naming Jaime to the Kingsguard would deprive Tywin of his beloved heir, and place him at his command.

[CAllDSmith]

22 hours ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

That's a hard secret to keep.  The lady of the court who might have been bedded by the king was Ashara.

What makes you think that?

[CAllDSmith]

20 hours ago, Karneol said:

If he doesn't want to wed Rhaegar Tywins daughter because he is his servant, do you really think he will wed Rhaegar to his whore?

It's not about what I think, but the genius political animal that is Cersei Lannister would think. 

[kissdbyfire]

2 minutes ago, CAllDSmith said:

It's not about what I think, but the genius political animal that is Cersei Lannister would think. 

She’s not a genius imo. She’s clever, sometimes, in a very manipulative and self-serving manner. Regarding Jaime’s appointment to the KG, and whether Cersei played any part in it... I think she did, yes, but not by having sex w/ Aerys (in part b/c of the reasons I stated up thread). But being at court and being clever and manipulative, and knowing both that Aerys was super paranoid and not Tywin’s biggest fan, it wouldn’t have been out of the realm of possibility to create a scenario where Aerys or someone close-ish to him would overhear things... like, “oh my father would be absolutely livid if Jaime were to join the KG”. Mind you, I’m sort of simplifying here, just to give an idea of how it would be possible for her to have played a part w/o having sex w/ Aerys. 

[Lord Varys]

4 hours ago, Bael's Bastard said:

@CAllDSmith

I don't think it can be ruled out that Cersei slept with Aerys, especially not based on the word of a Maester Yandel who not only received most of his insights into the reign of Aerys from Grand Maester Pycelle, but is also editing for the eyes of King Tommen and the Lannisters (namely Cersei).

The fact that Aerys II didn't take on any mistresses after his public walk of shame and the subsequent birth of his second son Viserys - which was likely interpreted as a sign that the Seven were smiling down on him now - seems to be totally unconnected to any member of House Lannister. If Cersei had an affair with Aerys II then neither Yandel nor anybody else would know about that, and subsequently nobody would have any reason to hush it up.

4 hours ago, Bael's Bastard said:

But Cersei wouldn't have had to sleep with Aerys to get him on board with the idea of adding Jaime to the Kingsguard. All she would have needed to do was say something to get him thinking about how naming Jaime to the Kingsguard would deprive Tywin of his beloved heir, and place him at his command.

Chances are very low that Cersei Lannister had any opportunity whatsoever to plant an idea in Aerys II's head. She was a fifteen-year-old girl stupid enough to believe that making Jaime a KG was a good idea, making it extremely unlikely that she would have ever been subtle enough to do something like that. Aerys II was only meeting with his own Hand, the head of House Lannister, in the presence of all knights of the Kingsguard. Does this make it likely that the Hand's daughter was routinely allowed to hang out with the king? Is it likely that Aerys II would have believed that Cersei was uttering her own thoughts when talking to him rather than what Tywin told her to say? I don't think so.

Which is why it is very likely that Varys used Cersei to get Jaime to join the KG. He would have fed both Cersei and Aerys II this idea, and unlike Cersei Varys actually had the ear of the king.

1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

She’s not a genius imo. She’s clever, sometimes, in a very manipulative and self-serving manner. Regarding Jaime’s appointment to the KG, and whether Cersei played any part in it... I think she did, yes, but not by having sex w/ Aerys (in part b/c of the reasons I stated up thread). But being at court and being clever and manipulative, and knowing both that Aerys was super paranoid and not Tywin’s biggest fan, it wouldn’t have been out of the realm of possibility to create a scenario where Aerys or someone close-ish to him would overhear things... like, “oh my father would be absolutely livid if Jaime were to join the KG”. Mind you, I’m sort of simplifying here, just to give an idea of how it would be possible for her to have played a part w/o having sex w/ Aerys. 

Aerys II was effectively a recluse at this time. Even back when Steffon was still around (until 279 AC) Tywin spent more time on the Iron Throne than Aerys II. Stannis mistook Tywin for his royal cousin when his father brought him to the Red Keep for a visit - that's how often Aerys II showed his face even to his young Baratheon cousins. Chances that Cersei actually had the chance to interact with the king in an informal or private environment are very low - and any larger court gathering would have had Tywin present - or at least Tywin's men.

But the Jaime thing only worked because Tywin did not find out until after everything was settled - which means they must have prepared the whole thing meticulously. And neither Cersei nor Aerys II have the ability or character traits for the execution of such a meticulous plan. It is very likely that Aerys II very much liked the idea of stealing Tywin's heir when the idea was presented to him, but he wouldn't have concerned himself with the details - he never did.

[Sigella]

21 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

It is much more likely that Varys fed both Aerys II and Cersei the idea that Jaime should join the KG - likely to accomplish exactly what happened: to rid the court of Tywin without actually having Aerys II throw the first stone. Cersei tells Tyrion and the reader that she thought Varys was her best friend when she first came to court - which would have been then, under Aerys II - but we have yet to learn why she ever thought that and what Varys did to earn her trust.

One also could see Varys helping Cersei to arrange their clandestine sibling sex meeting - while one can see Cersei being smug and competent enough to sneak out of the castle, etc., it is a completely different level to actually hide an incest romance in a city with as many eyes and ears as KL. With Varys' help she could have ensured that her father's rivals on the Small Council - or King Aerys II himself - would never learn what had happened.

This sounds about right to me.

 

On closer thought, Aerys officially had a thing for Cersei's mother and she might have been susceptible due to "you will marry the king" if Aerys gave her half a chance due to being a perv like Littlefinger.

 

A bit off-topic perhaps, but do we think Varys knows about the Maggy-prophesy?

[Moiraine Sedai]

4 hours ago, CAllDSmith said:

What makes you think that?

Okay.  I don't have the books at work.  Who does!  But if I remember a passage in WOIAF, Queen Rhaella dismissed Ashara from her the court.

[kissdbyfire]

Ashara’s name doesn’t appear in TWoIaF. She was LiW to Elia Martell, not Rhaella Targaryen. 

[HexMachina]

8 hours ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

Okay.  I don't have the books at work.  Who does!  But if I remember a passage in WOIAF, Queen Rhaella dismissed Ashara from her the court.

You are possibly thinkimg of Joanna, who was dismissed by the Queen after Aerys got handsy with her