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Poll x2: Will Sandor Slay Robert Strong? ...or Slay A Dragon?


Platypus Rex

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I see your point, but I disagree - still it is (too) far reaching speculation, based on some symbols. Dany has dragons (well.. almost), kingdom to recover, and those who stand in her way, that's all I know.

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This is not, I think, going to be the story of Good Fire versus Evil Ice. 

 

Nowhere I have claimed anything like that. Fire is just as good / evil as the one who uses it. Same with dragon, it's just a tool. The same dragon carried the best king ever and empty headen villian. 

Moreover I doubt if Sandors conversion changed his mind about knighthood. Id rather expect he never takes out his sword again than become a knight.

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1 hour ago, Bran the Bodybuilder said:

1. Hopefully.

2. Nope. Aside from your idea that real knights kill dragons I don't remember one word in the book pointing to this. 

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There are two hundred highborn gathered in the square, standing in the rain in their tokars and howling for audience. They want Hizdahr free and me dead, and they want you to slay these dragons. Someone told them knights were good at that.

 

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"No doubt. Well, Hugor Hill, answer me this. How did Serwyn of the Mirror Shield slay the dragon Urrax?"

"He approached behind his shield. Urrax saw only his own reflection until Serwyn had plunged his spear through his eye."

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"The Warrior's Sons were an order of knights who gave up their lands and gold and swore their swords to His High Holiness. . .

The Warrior's Sons wore rainbow cloaks and inlaid silver armor over hair shirts, and bore star-shaped crystals in the pommels of their longswords. They were the Swords. Holy men, ascetics, fanatics, sorcerers, dragonslayers, demonhunters . . . there were many tales about them. But all agree that they were implacable in their hatred for all enemies of the Holy Faith."

Not that knights killing dragons need be grounded in the text given how common it is in fantasy.

 

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6 minutes ago, chrisdaw said:

 

Not that knights killing dragons need be grounded in the text given how common it is in fantasy.

 

I think he means pointing to Clegane killing a dragon. 

"Someone told them" - that's the point. I think the sentence is humoristic as the people believed in fairytales, where knights killing dragons exist. Story of Serwyn is a legend from the age of heroes as far as I remember. A knight from the times before knights appeared. How many cases of knights killing dragons were there since the conquest when dragons and knights meet for the first time? Id check it in wiki, but seems its down.  

If Clegane is to kill dragon shooting ballista or leading angry mob with pikes against entangled beast - then OK. 

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5 minutes ago, broken one said:

I think he means pointing to Clegane killing a dragon. 

"Someone told them" - that's the point. I think the sentence is humoristic as the people believed in fairytales, where knights killing dragons exist. Story of Serwyn is a legend from the age of heroes as far as I remember. A knight from the times before knights appeared. How many cases of knights killing dragons were there since the conquest when dragons and knights meet for the first time? Id check it in wiki, but seems its down.  

If Clegane is to kill dragon shooting ballista or leading angry mob with pikes against entangled beast - then OK. 

For Clegane specifically killing dragons there is the obvious fear of fire he has, and the fire breathing dragon being the critical beast of the whole series. And Serwyn of the Mirror Shield also saved a maiden from a giant, which runs very nicely into Sandor saving Sansa from Robert strong, making Sandor a very good candidate for who Serwyn is foreshadowing. And Sandor being a strong candidate to become one of the Warrior's Sons given his current situation, and them being dragonslayers and demonhunters (again Robert strong).

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11 minutes ago, chrisdaw said:

For Clegane specifically killing dragons there is the obvious fear of fire he has, and the fire breathing dragon being the critical beast of the whole series. And Serwyn of the Mirror Shield also saved a maiden from a giant, which runs very nicely into Sandor saving Sansa from Robert strong, making Sandor a very good candidate for who Serwyn is foreshadowing. And Sandor being a strong candidate to become one of the Warrior's Sons given his current situation, and them being dragonslayers and demonhunters (again Robert strong).

Thank you for explanation. 

So Clegane fears fire and thats why he will fight fire breathing monster. He scorns knighthood and thats why hell become a knight. Interesting. 

I am not buying the part with Sansa and Robert Strong :)

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Sandor defending Sansa from Robert strong is a done deal. The real horror of Strong will be that in his relentless servitude he is being denied the mercy of death, the importance of which Arya taught Sandor when she refused to kill him. The new Sandor will not wish his brother to endure this tormented fate. Everyone deserves that mercy.

Cersei who is to be undone by a yonger more beautiful queen, has hitched her wagon completely to Ser Robert Strong. If Ser Robert Strong were to be unmasked his demon face would bring Cersei down. In Bran's vision where Jaime and Sandor are between Sansa/Arya and Ungregor, it is noted particularly that under his helmet is the thick black blood, that which symbolises his undeadness. Cersei pushes for Sansa to be trialled, Sansa chooses trial by combat, Sandor unmasks Ungregor. Victory to the younger more beautiful queen, all visions and prophecies neatly fulfilled.

Galladon of Morne, the perfect knight, the maiden fell in love with him and gave him a special sword that could not be checked or stopped. Galladon would not use it against any mere mortal man, but he might have used it against a foe 8 foot tall. He did use it to slay a dragon (another one for the dragon I forgot about). Sansa is likened to the maiden in various ways throughout the text, she is in close proximity to the Valyrian sword Lady Forlorn, a not particularly subtle nod to her fallen direwolf protector. Lady Forlorn has a ruby heart pommel. Lyn Corbray is not long for this world, his sword, will fall into Sansa's possession, she will give it to (forbidden) her protector and love Sandor, a token of her love as per the pommel, and he'll fight for her and defeat Ungregor with it.

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15 hours ago, broken one said:

I see your point, but I disagree - still it is (too) far reaching speculation, based on some symbols. Dany has dragons (well.. almost), kingdom to recover, and those who stand in her way, that's all I know.

Well, of course, what we KNOW is limited to the published books.  Obviously these "unpopular theory" polls aim at a slightly more daring game, for those who like going out on a limb a bit.

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Nowhere I have claimed anything like that. Fire is just as good / evil as the one who uses it.

I wasn't trying to claim you claimed anything.  I was merely trying to answer the question you put to me.

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Same with dragon, it's just a tool.

It's a bit more than that.  Otherswise Hazzea would not have become dragon-food.  It is not as though Dany just woke up one morning and decided to roast a little girl for breakfast.

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Moreover I doubt if Sandors conversion changed his mind about knighthood. Id rather expect he never takes out his sword again than become a knight.

Then in what sense would it be, in any meaningful sense, a "conversion"?

The argument between Sandor and Sansa is a rather fundamental one.  Sandor is, or was, a nihilist, who espouses "might makes right" philosophy and brute force, and holds all moral ideals of a warrior to be delusion.  Sansa opposes him, and believes that a warrior ought to be guided by higher moral standards. 

Sandor already has all the necessary training.  He was a "knight" in every sense but (1) the moral ideals; and (2) the formal oath and ceremony.  If he is still a moral nihilist, then he is still "The Hound" -- still a beast in the service of raw power -- or perhaps now a beast serving only himself -- which would mean that the Elder Brother spoke falsely, in EVERY sense, when he said "The Hound" was dead. 

And obviously, when I talk of a "True Knight", I'm concerned with the moral ideals; not the formal ceremony.  Whether he wants to call himself a "knight", take a formal oath, or associate himself with other "false" knights, is neither here nor there.

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14 hours ago, broken one said:

"Someone told them" - that's the point. I think the sentence is humoristic as the people believed in fairytales, where knights killing dragons exist.

Okay fine.  You're telling me not to listen to those old wives' tales, and commoner tales.  Instead I should be reading the official history of stuffy maesters serving the interests of tyrannical dragon kings.  It's almost as if I'm not reading a work of fantasy.

I'm not saying you're necessarily wrong in your guesses.  I can only point to all the threads and hints and themes that GRRM has woven into the story and suggest the possibility that they may be leading somewhere.   If, in spite of all those themes and hints, you still don't believe this is possible, then perhaps GRRM has done a good job.  If he has laid all the groundwork, but it is still a surprise to most readers, isn't that what an author should be doing, more or less?

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Story of Serwyn is a legend from the age of heroes as far as I remember. A knight from the times before knights appeared. 

That's stuffy-maester-talk you are talking.  And it focusses on stuff that does not really matter.  Who cares if certain variants of the Serwyn legend are not literally true in every sense? 

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How many cases of knights killing dragons were there since the conquest when dragons and knights meet for the first time?

I predict at least one, by the time the series ends.  This series is at least in part about old stories and legends, disbelieved by maesters, coming true.  Which is not an uncommon theme, in the fantasy genre.

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If Clegane is to kill dragon shooting ballista or leading angry mob with pikes against entangled beast - then OK. 

Are you switching your vote to "yes", then?  The question says nothing about methods.  Traditionally, dragonslayers did not act like idiots.  Sigurd dug a trench so he could surprise-stab Fafnir from below.  Beowulf had a special shield made to protect himself from the dragon's fire, and brought 11 companions to help him (10 of whom ran away).  The slayer of "The Dragon of the North" employed various stratagems, including powerful magical aid

And your examples from Westerosi histories only prove that dragon-slaying is indeed possible.  A pike is just a long spear.  Per the story, Serwyn of the Mirror Shield also employed a spear to slay a dragon - striking Urrax in the eye, which even maesters agree is the proper method when attacking a dragon.

And as for the angry mob with pikes, were they not risking their lives?  Were they not (many of them) SACRIFICING their lives? What they did is nothing to shrug off, surely.

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18 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

Not that knights killing dragons need be grounded in the text given how common it is in fantasy.

Thank you for the quotes.  In addition there is:

Dany thinking, at the time of the Hazzea incident, that "there were songs beyond count of villages and kingdoms that lived in dread of dragons till some brave dragonslayer rescued them".

In "The Hedge Knight", Tanselle puts on a puppet show of a knight slaying a dragon, which causes her to be attacked by Aerion Targaryen.  Dunk gets into huge trouble by coming to Tanselle's defense and attacking a royal prince.  But of course, he shows himself a true knight by defending the weak from the strong, by defending the literal maiden from the figurative dragon

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On 4/12/2019 at 5:14 PM, Platypus Rex said:

This is a poll.  Please answer "Yes" or "No" to one or both of the following TWO questions:

(1) Will Sandor Clegane Slay the Mystery Warrior Known as Robert Strong?

(2) Will Sandor Clegane Slay A Dragon?

Responses to both questions (e.g. "Yes; No") will be applied to the 2 questions in the above order.  However, if you choose to answer only 1 question, please make sure I know which response you are answering.  The theories are not mutually exclusive; and it is possible to answer "yes" to both.

For context, the FIRST question above relates to a (relatively) popular fan theory or fan prediction dubbed "Clegane-bowl".  The basic idea is that Sandor and his brother Gregor are arch-enemies since childhood, when Gregor severely mutilated Sandor's face.  Ser Gregor, or an undead version of him, is commonly supposed to be Ser Robert Strong.   In many versions of the theory, the showdown between the 2 brothers takes place in a duel, a single combat, a trial-by-combat, a tournament, or an arena combat (hence, "CleganeBowl").  Bran's dream of the 3 shadows is commonly cited in support of the theory, and in this version of the theory, Ser Robert Strong will menace Sansa and Arya, and Jaime and Sandor will team up to defend them.

Some opponents of this theory believe that Sandor has found peace on the Quiet Isle, and believe his arc to be over.  Others feel it would be inconsistent with his character arc, for him to return to a program of vengeance against Gregor, after having supposedly (according to the Elder Brother) put such hate-filled feelings to rest.

The SECOND theory is far less well known, but posits that Sandor's date with destiny is with a very different kind of monster.  It starts with the idea that Sandor is afraid of fire.  But is it possible to be brave when you are afraid?  According to Ned Stark, that is the only time a man can be brave.  And what does it take to slay a dragon, according to Irri?  That's right -- a brave man!   Sandor has already partially overcome his fear of fire when he overcame Lord Beric, with his flaming sword.  Does this foreshadow a greater feat to come?  And of course, as all tale-tellers know, dragonslaying is the ultimate achievement of any True Knight; making this an ironic twist to Sandor's destiny.

To which it is of course objected that Sandor would never slay a dragon, because he is too afraid of fire, and because he despises the ideals of knighthood.

Please feel free to give reasons for your answer or otherwise elaborate.  However, I ask that you not argue with the reasons given by other posters until the third page.  After that, have at it.

Thank you in advance for all votes.

-------------------------------------------------x

"Will Sandor Slay Robert Strong?":  12 for to 9 against.

  • For:  chrisdaw, Mat92, Impbread, Karneol, Shara, Legitimate_Bastard, Daemon the Black Dragon, Remiem, redriver, tmhwk, hielmal, Bran the Bodybuilder.
  • Against:  NonoNono, Haus Berlin, Missing Benjen, Clegane'sPup, Dorian Martell's son, broken one, The Gizzard of Oz, Ibbison from Ibben, White Ravens.

"Will Sandor Slay A Dragon?":  0 for to 21 against.

  • Against:  NonoNono, chrisdaw, Mat92, Impbread, Haus Berlin, Karneol, Shara, Legitimate_Bastard, Missing Benjen, Daemon the Black Dragon, Clegane'sPup, Dorian Martell's son, broken one, Remiem, The Gizzard of Oz, tmhwk, hiemal, Ibbison from Ibben, White Ravens, Bran the Bodybuilder.

No to both of these. 

Sandor is going to stay on the Quiet Isle, silent, as he slowly moves up the ranks and eventually becomes the Elder Brother, content knowing that he can help others without them being terrified of him. 

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Sandor is a character designed to explore the realities of knighthood. He's only done the bad half, there's the good half to go. And there is a good half, knights did protect people, they did fight against raiders and invaders, fight just wars and protect their faith and people.

Sandor's whole problem with knighthood is that it was hypocritical, a lie. A knight is supposed to be a defender of those who can not defend themselves, only they gave the honour to Gregor and Gregor was just a bully, someone who preyed on those weaker than him. Rhaegar dubbed Gregor, and so the lie ran all the way to the very top.

That is Sandor's attraction to Sansa, she actually believed in what she said. She's naive and stupid perhaps, but she was not false.

The Faith is the answer to Sandor's issue with knighthood. The followers on the QI as well as those newly emerged in KL are true believers. They're fundamentalists, they believe what they say and say what they believe, they are not liars. In becoming a knight of the Faith Sandor will be serving an honest master who will expect nothing more of him than for him to act in accordance with the oath of knighthood.

This is the arc. Part of it anyway, as soon enough the problem with religious rigidity will teach Sandor the value of an occasional convenient lie.

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On 4/13/2019 at 2:14 AM, Platypus Rex said:

(1) Will Sandor Clegane Slay the Mystery Warrior Known as Robert Strong?

(2) Will Sandor Clegane Slay A Dragon?

1. No. That's Hound's job, and Sandor Clegane is no more the Hound. 

2. No.

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15 hours ago, GloubieBoulga said:

1. No. That's Hound's job, and Sandor Clegane is no more the Hound. 

Interesting thought.  The Hound is, or will be, still around in some form.  So when The Hound (who is not Sandor) finally takes on Gregor, what will be he, she, or its motive?  Why would this be his (or her) job?

To "Take the Sword and Slay the Kingslayer", perhaps?  Brienne's dying oath, and the undead mission of Zombie Brienne?

For Gregor's (reputed) crime is that he slew a king, when he slew baby Aegon.  He did not merely slay him, but destroyed his face.  Much as Gregor destroyed Sandor's face.  

Given all the strange parallels between Brienne and Sandor, there is plenty of room for confusion here, as to exactly who is seeking revenge for what, when "The Hound" finally takes on "The Mountain".

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