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lannister family (cersei,tywin,tyrion, and jaime ) levels of narcissism rankings and(and the reasons for the last 2 rankings)

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https://makerkenzie.tumblr.com/post/184019060810/would-you-say-tyrion-is-a-narcissist-and-out-of

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From most to least narcissistic:

Cersei

Tywin

Tyrion

Jaime

https://makerkenzie.tumblr.com/post/184169148280/jaime-lannister-first-of-his-name-tyrion-is/

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Jaime Lannister, First of His Name: Tyrion is Tywin’s True Son, Not You

Got this Ask recently:

What was your reasoning for the Lannister narcissism ranking? Cersei and Tywin were obvious, but I’m interested in your opinions behind the ranking of Jaime and Tyrion. (Jaime is my favourite character). Have you already written meta on it, if you have please could you attach a link?
 

And the immediate answer is…it’s tricky to explain.

But I’d like to talk about something sort of adjacent, and maybe that’ll help shed some light on my rankings.

One major question, regarding my endgame prediction of Jaime as a provincial king, would be: why does Jaime become king, and not Tyrion?

I don’t want Tyrion to die young, and I don’t expect him to die young. I don’t want Tyrion to be marginalized, and I don’t expect him to be marginalized.

I see Jaime as king of the Rock and Tyrion as his Hand.

So, then: why does Jaime get the crown, and not Tyrion?

The big difference I want to talk about here is that Tyrion has picked up Tywin’s caring too much about what people think of him.

Tywin did not want to be loved. Tywin wanted to be feared. He wanted to be seen as a force to be reckoned with. He slaughtered the Reynes and Tarbecks because they were not sufficiently respectful of the dignity of House Lannister and he decided to make an example of them. The case can be made (and it has been made, if I recall) that a lot of the decisions he’s made since then are about personal vendetta rather than political strategy. He sacked King’s Landing to punish the Targaryens for all the indignities he suffered as Hand to Aerys II. The murder of Elia Martell and her children maaaay have had something to do with Tywin’s grievance at Aerys refusing Cersei as a bride for Rhaegar because “servant,” so that’s something to think about. 

Also, his abuse of Tyrion is built around his insecurity at how House Lannister is viewed with a dwarf in the family. He makes a lot of noise about the tragedy of Joanna’s death, but plenty of noblemen lose their wives to obstetrical complications and they don’t abuse their children. Tywin brutalized and underutilized his cleverest child because he didn’t like the image of his family with that. It’s a waste. A leader who’s too concerned with making people view him a certain way is a leader who is too easily manipulated and has his priorities out of order. 

Tyrion is not just like his father. Tyrion wants to be taken seriously as a thinker and an administrator, yes, which is fine, and he also wants to be seen as a decent person, rather than a twisted demon monkey. This is not a moral judgment on Tyrion. It’s not even a criticism. It’s simply an observation that…Tyrion makes decisions based on wanting to be seen a certain way. He approached his marriage to Sansa with a bit of the old savior complex, which is not the worst way to approach an arranged marriage to a 13-year-old hostage, but Sansa recognized that Tyrion wanted to be seen as “kind,” and that was one of the ways that she was able to hold him at arm’s length while she plotted to escape the city. A leader who is too concerned with how he is viewed is one who is too easily manipulated. Tyrion is also the one who killed his father as revenge for railroading Tysha. I don’t fault him for killing Tywin, per se, but I do fault him for leaving Cersei, of all people, in charge of the realm. Tyrion is the one who is actively goading fAegon into invading Westeros ahead of Daenerys. He’s pissed off at how he’s been treated by his family (understandable), so he’s actively putting the realm in harm’s way. Bad priorities. Not the right energy for the top seat.

And then we have Jaime. I’m not saying Jaime “doesn’t care” about what people think of him; he cares very much. But the way he makes decisions in relation to his concern about his reputation is very different from his dad and his little brother. Jaime is the guy who was so desperate to have Brienne trust him that he…poured his heart out to her about how he became the Kingslayer. He correctly judged that Brienne was a good person to have on his side, so he gave her his trust and that won him her trust. This is healthy behavior. This is proportional. This is accountable. 

Meanwhile, we have his approach to the Riverlands and especially Riverrun in FeastDance. I don’t think his actions at this stage are redemptive unto themselves. I think his handling of the Riverrun siege is a prelude to his redemption. From the beginning, his objective is to hold to his vows to Catelyn Stark to never take up arms against Stark nor Tully. We can debate later how his actions actually honor the spirit of the law in this case, but the point is, he cares about doing right by Catelyn. That he cares so much about keeping his promises to Catelyn, when he doesn’t expect to be rewarded socially, economically or politically for doing so, tells us a lot about what kind of personality we’re dealing with. In this situation we see Jaime struggle with his ego and ultimately win. He sort of wants to do single combat with Uncle Brynden (terrible idea) just to prove that he’s still a fighter, but he doesn’t do it because he is a functional adult in a position of responsibility. Ultimately, Jaime’s decisions are about accepting his reputation rather than trying to change it. He assumes he will always be seen as the Kingslayer, Oathbreaker, Man Without Honor, and rather than punish his conquered foes for their prejudices, he asks himself: okay, what can I do with this? Rather than build his strategy around forcing the Tullys to see him differently, he utilizes his reputation as the Guy Who Always Does the Worst to enact minimal violence against the Tullys without actively committing treason against the family regime.

(The treason against the family regime comes a bit later, and we’re still waiting to see how the book version pans out.)

Anyway. The general idea is that Jaime is a lot more willing than Tyrion to put the interests of the realm above his own ego. 

 

 

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I had a pretty intense debate with someone on here a couple days back after I called Tywin a narcissistic-sociopath due to the reasons listed here and more, and I've got to say it's nice seeing someone else bring up that point. 

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“Even if the boy does live, he will be a cripple. Worse than a cripple. A grotesque. Give me a good clean death.”

“Then blame those precious gods of yours, who brought the boy to our window and gave him a glimpse of something he was never meant to see.”

Jaime is just as much a narcissistic as Cersei. He just became what he mocked the most and is bitter about it now. He still refuses to look at his actions and take responsability, he keeps blaming everything but himself.

"It was that white cloak that soiled me, not the other way around."

Jaime went to the Kingsguard because he wanted to sleep with his sister, and ignored the vow of celibacy. The lack self awareness potrait in the quotes above shows how far he is from true redemption.

Jaime is not on a path to redemption. He is on path of identity. And he has chosen to be Tywin and not Ned Stark  to reclaim his identity. He is breaking every oath he ever swore to Catelyn. He even has no plan as to what to do when Brienne does have Sansa. Where would he hide her with Joffrey’s murder charges on her head? a charge he should be trying Cersei to talk out of?

 

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6 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

Jaime is not on a path to redemption. He is on path of identity. And he has chosen to be Tywin and not Ned Stark  to reclaim his identity. He is breaking every oath he ever swore to Catelyn. He even has no plan as to what to do when Brienne does have Sansa. Where would he hide her with Joffrey’s murder charges on her head? a charge he should be trying Cersei to talk out of?

All of those quotes are from the early period of Jaime's redemption. He very much does everything in his power to keep his oaths to Catelyn without breaking his oaths as Kingsguard and knight anymore. He specifically sword never to take up arms against House Tully again, which he didn't. As for his plan for keeping Sansa safe, he doesn't need to have a plan. His plan was "Get Brienne next to Sansa/Arya if she's still alive and then Brienne will do the rest."

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20 hours ago, silverwolf22 said:

Oh god, the Tyrion defenders are here! HELP! HELP US!!! 

I feel like Tywin is probably more narcissistic than Cersei. Tywin sets the precedent with the projection and paranoia. 

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12 hours ago, CAllDSmith said:

He specifically sword never to take up arms against House Tully again, which he didn't.

He just lead an army to take the castle from the Blackfish, pushed Brynden out of his home by threatining to kill Edmure's child and then send scouts to kill the old Tully while he walked away with Edmure as his hostage.

Yeah sure he is keeping his vows to Catelyn... the same way he keep them to Aerys.

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3 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

He just lead an army to take the castle from the Blackfish, pushed Brynden out of his home by threatining to kill Edmure's child and then send scouts to kill the old Tully while he walked away with Edmure as his hostage.

Yeah sure he is keeping his vows to Catelyn... the same way he keep them to Aerys.

he didnt weild arms against house tully  he did everything he could to avoid that by  getting  brynden to surrender without breaking his oath  leading the army to take the castle doesnt break the oath  the only thing tat would count is if it  went into an actual battle that would be breaking his oath to catelyn (and to be honest the fact that he was drunk and had a sword at his throat means that it wouldnt be a legitimate oath ( and even then it would be a case of conflicting oaths which he brought up before  since  he was duty bounded to kingsguard () ( and his cloak did soil him he was forced to stand aside and watch aerys commit atrocities ( like with neds brother and father or raping his wife which traumatized him ( while seeing people touted as honorable do nothing to stop it  https://cloaksoiledhim.wordpress.com/ ) 

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4 minutes ago, silverwolf22 said:

he didnt weild arms against house tully  he did everything he could to avoid that by  getting  brynden to surrender without breaking his oath  leading the army to take the castle doesnt break the oath  the only thing tat would count is if it  went into an actual battle that would be breaking his oath to catelyn (and to be honest the fact that he was drunk and had a sword at his throat means that it wouldnt be a legitimate oath ( and even then it would be a case of conflicting oaths which he brought up before  since  he was duty bounded to kingsguard () ( and his cloak did soil him he was forced to stand aside and watch aerys commit atrocities ( like with neds brother and father or raping his wife which traumatized him ( while seeing people touted as honorable do nothing to stop it  https://cloaksoiledhim.wordpress.com/ ) 

This logic is flawed and laughble as Jaime's honor or his justifications that while murdering Aerys he wasn't in his KG armor.

In his recollection he is fixated on the fact that he didn’t murder Aerys in his KG armor and that should count for something while he is conventinally forgetting that he swore a oath to protect the dude and ended up murdering him.

The fact is he took sword against House Tully. He walked in push them out of they home, and went back with their lord in chains.

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34 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

This logic is flawed and laughble as Jaime's honor or his justifications that while murdering Aerys he wasn't in his KG armor.

In his recollection he is fixated on the fact that he didn’t murder Aerys in his KG armor and that should count for something while he is conventinally forgetting that he swore a oath to protect the dude and ended up murdering him.

Aerys was also an anointed knight, (knighted by Jaime's own father!) in becoming a knight both Aerys and Jaime sword to (among other things) protect widows, orphans, children, women and the innocent. Jaime's vow of protecting the royal family also extends to Rhaenys and Aegon who would have died in the wildfire plot. (He could not have known, and did not know, that Lorch and the Mountain were scaling Maegor's.) Jaime is also unable to follow the last order that Aerys gave him, to kill his own father, due to the laws of gods which supersede the laws of men. 

Were I to defend Jaime in a trial for his kingslaying I would use the following: 

1. The laws of the Seven supersede the laws of men, Jaime was an oathbreaker the moment Aerys ordered him to kill his father, because he could not follow that law. 

2. Jaime was compelled by his knightly oaths and his oaths to the Kingsguard to kill Hand Rossart. Rossarts actions would not only have killed the High Septon, the people of King's Landing, Jaime's own kin, and Jaime it would also have killed Princess Rhaenys, Prince Aegon and King Aerys. The Kingsguard are sworn to both defend and obey. What should the KG do if the King orders the KG to assist the King in suicide? What should the KG have done in the case of Prince Viserys (Aenys's son.) or in the case of Prince Aegon the Uncrowned and King Maegor the Cruel? What about during the Dance of Dragons or at Redgrass Field? King Viserys declared Rhaenyra his heir, but the law could argue for Aegon, and Aegon the Unworthy's legitimization of Daemon technically put him in front of Daeron in succession. 

3. King Aerys,  when taking the crown, swears certain vows and has certain roles required of him. He is to protect the Faith (Per Jaehaerys I's laws and oath.), defend the realm (He is after all the Protector of the Realm.), rule justly and wisely (as the Gods demand.), To quote Ser Davos Seaworth 

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And I know that a king protects his people, or he is no king at all. 

When Aerys mocked the gods with Rickard and Brandon's trial by combat, and then demanded Robert and Eddard's heads he ceased to be a lawful king, contrary to what Joffrey or Cersei believe, being king does not put you above the law or give you free reign to do what you want. When Aerys commanded the wildfire plot and ordered Jaime to kill patricide he conspired to commit: genocide, filicide, infanticide, parricide, and deicide all things Aerys is not allowed to do. At that moment in time Aerys no longer had a right to call himself king or command Jaime. The laws of gods and men, and every oath Jaime has sworn demands that he stop Aerys from completing the wildfire plot and protects the life of the true king. Where Jaime made a mistake was in not protecting Aegon and Rhaenys after he killed Aerys. It can be argued that he needed to kill Aerys because there was no way he could subdue him that would prevent the Mad King from ordering someone who still (falsely) thought him to be king to  do what Rossart failed to do. 

Also Jaime isn't really saying that because he wasn't wearing white armor (though still the white cloak) he could  not be held accountable for breaking his KG oaths.( At least in English he's not.) He's saying it sardonically, because there was literally no way for him to get out of that situation without being an oath-breaker in some form, he's saying he was essentially wearing one of his other "hats", similar to how there's Robb the Boy and Robb the Lord in Bran's perception. Jaime isn't making the arguments I'm making (at least not the way I'm making them.) because at the time he was seventeen and his lordly education ended at fifteen while I'm older than at least of fourth of Targaryen kings when they came to the crown (or died.). All of my arguments are ones that a skilled maester (or Tyrion.) could come up with. 

1 hour ago, Arthur Peres said:

The fact is he took sword against House Tully. He walked in push them out of they home, and went back with their lord in chains.

Jaime never actually takes up his sword against any member of House Tully or their bannermen here's the exact quote of the vow he swore: 

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Swear that you will never again take up arms against Stark nor Tully. Swear that you will compel your brother to honor his pledge to return my daughters safe and unharmed. Swear on your honor as a knight, on your honor as a Lannister, on your honor as a Sworn Brother of the Kingsguard. Swear it by your sister's life, and your father's, and your son's, by the old gods and the new, and I'll send you back to your sister. Refuse, and I will have your blood

Jaime never takes up arms against Houses Tully or Stark, but he does follow his KG vows to the letter. He actually does more harm to his allies during his time in the Riverlands than he does to House Tully (smacking the shit out of Ryman Frey, making the Freys give up their hostages, calling Sybelle Spicer a bitch, making Jonos Bracken accept a lesser deal and send one of his daughters to court etc.) here's the things that Jaime does to show how he went about following the letter of the oath he swore and as much of the spirit as his other oaths as he could. 

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"No. I am calling you a cripple." The Blackfish nodded at Jaime's golden hand. "We both know you cannot fight with that."
"I had two hands." Would you throw your life away for pride? a voice inside him whispered. "Some might say a cripple and an old man are well matched. Free me from my vow to Lady Catelyn and I will meet you sword to sword. If I win, Riverrun is ours. If you slay me, we'll lift the siege."

He specifically says he will not fight Blackfish unless he's released from his vow then: 

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It was a good thing that Jaime wore no sword; elsewise he would have ripped his blade out, and if Ser Brynden did not slay him, the archers on the walls most surely would.

Despite his temptation to want to fight Brynden for insulting him, he did not even wear a sword to talk to him. He was not bearing arms, and every time Jaime goes to train with Ilyn he specifically has to go find some, he is not bearing or taking up arms at any of these points. It's the difference between firing a gun, drawing a gun, wearing a gun, or leaving the gun in the car. 

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"This says I can." Jaime tapped his sword hilt with a finger. "The question is, will I need to step over your corpse?"

This is the one and only time Jaime threatens anyone with his own sword, when he's getting Edmure down from the Frey's stupid noose. He's threatening Freys here. And that leads us to the threat that Jaime makes to keep the siege bloodless from this point on: 

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Must you make me say the words? Pia was standing by the flap of the tent with her arms full of clothes. His squires were listening as well, and the singer. Let them hear, Jaime thought. Let the world hear. It makes no matter. He forced himself to smile, "You've seen our numbers, Edmure. You've seen the ladders, the towers, the trebuchets, the rams. If I speak the command, my coz will bridge your moat and break your gate. Hundreds will die, most of them your own. Your former bannermen will make up the first wave of attackers, so you'll start your day by killing the fathers and brothers of men who died for you at the Twins. The second wave will be Freys, I have no lack of those. My westermen will follow when your archers are short of arrows and your knights so weary they can hardly lift their blades. When the castle falls, all those inside will be put to the sword. Your herds will be butchered, your godswood will be felled, your keeps and towers will burn. I'll pull your walls down, and divert the Tumblestone over the ruins. By the time I'm done no man will ever know that a castle once stood here." Jaime got to his feet. "Your wife may whelp before that. You'll want your child, I expect. I'll send him to you when he's born. With a trebuchet."

Jaime goes out of his way to get Edmure to yield without fighting, or even without Jaime making the threats he makes. Even in the threat Jaime makes, the worst Jaime threatens to do is pull down the walls and divert the Tumblestone and the trebuchet line (which we all know he was bluffing on.) Everything else is simply giving "the word" where the word is at most "I'm done here, you take command." 

As a final point, you seem to be unwilling to allow that Jaime's other oaths can supersede his KG oath. If this were true, you CANNOT hold him accountable for his oath to Catelyn ,who was a traitor in the Iron Throne's eyes, when it conflicts with his orders from the Queen-Regent. (Also interestingly enough if we're going by oaths, if Cersei ordered him to fuck her he would have to or be breaking his vow.) 

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3 hours ago, CAllDSmith said:

Jaime never actually takes up his sword against any member of House Tully or their bannermen here's the exact quote of the vow he swore: 

He commanded a army to take their castle... no matter how you try twist it, is what he did. He broke his oath.

 

3 hours ago, CAllDSmith said:

He specifically says he will not fight Blackfish unless he's released from his vow then: 

And his words are meaningless like Blackfish tell us

Ser Brynden laughed again. “Much as I would welcome the chance to take that golden sword away from you and cut out your black heart, your promises are worthless. I would gain nothing from your death but the pleasure of killing you, and I will not risk my own life for that … as small a risk as that may be.”

“Are there any terms you will accept?” he demanded of the Blackfish.

“From you?” Ser Brynden shrugged. “No.”

his own camp agree with Bryden, Jaime's proposal is a joke.

“Why would he deign to accept your challenge, ser?” asked Ser Forley Prester. “What could he gain from such a duel? Will we lift the siege if he should win? I do not believe that. Nor will he. A single combat would accomplish nought.”

3 hours ago, CAllDSmith said:

This is the one and only time Jaime threatens anyone with his own sword, when he's getting Edmure down from the Frey's stupid noose. He's threatening Freys here. And that leads us to the threat that Jaime makes to keep the siege bloodless from this point on: 

Just like the other guy you are hanging around in Jaime's logic like he can command someone to slew you but he cannot kill you himself... this is not how his oath works. He was never to take arms against the Tully, but he did and he threatned to kill Edmure's Child, his friends, his folk, and his men like you quoted yourself.

 

3 hours ago, CAllDSmith said:

Jaime goes out of his way to get Edmure to yield without fighting, or even without Jaime making the threats he makes. Even in the threat Jaime makes, the worst Jaime threatens to do is pull down the walls and divert the Tumblestone and the trebuchet line (which we all know he was bluffing on.) Everything else is simply giving "the word" where the word is at most "I'm done here, you take command." 

 

No he doesn't. He resolved the siege the easiest way for him, his own camp was against storming the castle. The freys hold the supplies and the majority of the men, and they didn't want to storm the castle, the riverlords loyalith is dubious and Jaime can't control anyone there, he only resolved his own problems.

“They are my walls,” protested Lord Emmon, “and that is my gate you would break.” He drew his parchment out of his sleeve again. “King Tommen himself has granted me—”

“Storming the walls will be a bloody business,” said Addam Marbrand. “I propose we wait for a moonless night and send a dozen picked men across the river in a boat with muffled oars. They can scale the walls with ropes and grapnels, and open the gates from the inside. I will lead them, if the council wishes.

“Folly,” declared the bastard, Walder Rivers. “Ser Brynden is no man to be cozened by such tricks.

3 hours ago, CAllDSmith said:

 As a final point, you seem to be unwilling to allow that Jaime's other oaths can supersede his KG oath. If this were true, you CANNOT hold him accountable for his oath to Catelyn ,who was a traitor in the Iron Throne's eyes, when it conflicts with his orders from the Queen-Regent. (Also interestingly enough if we're going by oaths, if Cersei ordered him to fuck her he would have to or be breaking his vow.) 

Since you touch on this subject. Jaime is breaking both oaths... and he is going out of his way to do it. He could do the better for everyone, stay on Kings Landing, not take swords, and tried to diminish Cersei's influence over Tommen, but he just don't care about anything but himself.

“It will be up to us to finish his work. You must take Father’s place as Hand. You see that now, surely. Tommen will need you …”

He pushed away from her and raised his arm, forcing his stump into her face. “A Hand without a hand? A bad jape, sister. Don’t ask me to rule.”

“Rule? I said naught of ruling. I shall rule until my son comes of age.”

“I don’t know who I pity more,” her brother said. “Tommen, or the Seven Kingdoms.”

Like Tyrion putted.

My brother, Jaime, thirsts for battle, not for power. He's run from every chance he's had to rule.

Jaime refuses to take responsability is quite amusing that a book series working around young teens being forced to rule and take hard decisions, we have Jaime running away from his own acts while blaming everything but himself.

 

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4 hours ago, CAllDSmith said:

Aerys was also an anointed knight, (knighted by Jaime's own father!) in becoming a knight both Aerys and Jaime sword to (among other things) protect widows, orphans, children, women and the innocent. Jaime's vow of protecting the royal family also extends to Rhaenys and Aegon who would have died in the wildfire plot. (He could not have known, and did not know, that Lorch and the Mountain were scaling Maegor's.) Jaime is also unable to follow the last order that Aerys gave him, to kill his own father, due to the laws of gods which supersede the laws of men. 

Were I to defend Jaime in a trial for his kingslaying I would use the following: 

1. The laws of the Seven supersede the laws of men, Jaime was an oathbreaker the moment Aerys ordered him to kill his father, because he could not follow that law. 

2. Jaime was compelled by his knightly oaths and his oaths to the Kingsguard to kill Hand Rossart. Rossarts actions would not only have killed the High Septon, the people of King's Landing, Jaime's own kin, and Jaime it would also have killed Princess Rhaenys, Prince Aegon and King Aerys. The Kingsguard are sworn to both defend and obey. What should the KG do if the King orders the KG to assist the King in suicide? What should the KG have done in the case of Prince Viserys (Aenys's son.) or in the case of Prince Aegon the Uncrowned and King Maegor the Cruel? What about during the Dance of Dragons or at Redgrass Field? King Viserys declared Rhaenyra his heir, but the law could argue for Aegon, and Aegon the Unworthy's legitimization of Daemon technically put him in front of Daeron in succession. 

3. King Aerys,  when taking the crown, swears certain vows and has certain roles required of him. He is to protect the Faith (Per Jaehaerys I's laws and oath.), defend the realm (He is after all the Protector of the Realm.), rule justly and wisely (as the Gods demand.), To quote Ser Davos Seaworth 

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And I know that a king protects his people, or he is no king at all. 

When Aerys mocked the gods with Rickard and Brandon's trial by combat, and then demanded Robert and Eddard's heads he ceased to be a lawful king, contrary to what Joffrey or Cersei believe, being king does not put you above the law or give you free reign to do what you want. When Aerys commanded the wildfire plot and ordered Jaime to kill patricide he conspired to commit: genocide, filicide, infanticide, parricide, and deicide all things Aerys is not allowed to do. At that moment in time Aerys no longer had a right to call himself king or command Jaime. The laws of gods and men, and every oath Jaime has sworn demands that he stop Aerys from completing the wildfire plot and protects the life of the true king. Where Jaime made a mistake was in not protecting Aegon and Rhaenys after he killed Aerys. It can be argued that he needed to kill Aerys because there was no way he could subdue him that would prevent the Mad King from ordering someone who still (falsely) thought him to be king to  do what Rossart failed to do. 

 Also Jaime isn't really saying that because he wasn't wearing white armor (though still the white cloak) he could  not be held accountable for breaking his KG oaths.( At least in English he's not.) He's saying it sardonically, because there was literally no way for him to get out of that situation without being an oath-breaker in some form, he's saying he was essentially wearing one of his other "hats", similar to how there's Robb the Boy and Robb the Lord in Bran's perception. Jaime isn't making the arguments I'm making (at least not the way I'm making them.) because at the time he was seventeen and his lordly education ended at fifteen while I'm older than at least of fourth of Targaryen kings when they came to the crown (or died.). All of my arguments are ones that a skilled maester (or Tyrion.) could come up with. 

 

All of this is pointless. It does not matter if you wanna play the devils advocate here or not. The fact is Jaime swore a oath of celibacy already with all the intend to break it, then he swore a oath to protect Aerys and he killed him. And is not because Aerys "failed to protect the people" or he "mocked the trial of the Starks" Jaime himself tell us what he thought about them

“I made no such claim. The Starks were nothing to me."

Jaime is selfish, he refuses to take responsability for his words and actions, he is a oathbreaker, a kingslayer, a guest right breaker and if the most fan theories about the valonquar are correct a soon to be kinslayer, and he still thinks of himself as the victim of the war he and his sister started when they usurped the sucession line...

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41 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

All of this is pointless. It does not matter if you wanna play the devils advocate here or not. The fact is Jaime swore a oath of celibacy already with all the intend to break it, then he swore a oath to protect Aerys and he killed him. And is not because Aerys "failed to protect the people" or he "mocked the trial of the Starks" Jaime himself tell us what he thought about them

“I made no such claim. The Starks were nothing to me."

Jaime is selfish, he refuses to take responsability for his words and actions, he is a oathbreaker, a kingslayer, a guest right breaker and if the most fan theories about the valonquar are correct a soon to be kinslayer, and he still thinks of himself as the victim of the war he and his sister started when they usurped the sucession line...

So I quoted and was going to respond to your whole first post but it was mostly pointlessness because half of it was you refusing to read what I actually wrote. So I'm just going to put this out here and I want a simple answer. 

If Queen Regent Cersei Lannister orders Lord Commander Jaime Lannister to break his vow of celibacy by having sex with Myrcella and when done he is to break his oath made while drunk at sword point to not take up arms against House Tully, and then to break his oaths of knighthood by killing the High Septon, and then break additional laws of gods and men by killing Tyrion what is Jaime to do?

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22 minutes ago, CAllDSmith said:

 If Queen Regent Cersei Lannister orders Lord Commander Jaime Lannister to break his vow of celibacy by having sex with Myrcella and when done he is to break his oath made while drunk at sword point to not take up arms against House Tully, and then to break his oaths of knighthood by killing the High Septon, and then break additional laws of gods and men by killing Tyrion what is Jaime to do?

First, she didn't.

Second Jaime is a grow men and had plenty of oportunity to leave the white cloak while Tywin is alive, he is serving because he wants it, he swore a oath without any intention the keep it from day one. Even Robert and Ned call Jaime Tywin's heir he would have no problem getting out of the KG.

Third, in this no sense order, Jaime should imprison Cersei because she is acting against the interest of the King by soiling his sister that is bethored for no reason what so ever, and then ignored the rest of this crazyness. Cersei is a regent but not the King, if she act against his interest is his duty to stop her.

Fourth what is the point of this no sense exercise of absurde? Not even Aerys "the mad" send such order.

26 minutes ago, CAllDSmith said:

So I quoted and was going to respond to your whole first post but it was mostly pointlessness because half of it was you refusing to read what I actually wrote. So I'm just going to put this out here and I want a simple answer. 

 

I did read, I just can't agree with a single word you spoke.

Jaime is not helding his promises, quite the oposite he is going out of his way to break them, while runing away from true responsability like Tyrion tell us. He can't take responsability and isnt mature or self aware enough to carry the weight of his actions.

I could be wrong here, but he is the only character in the books that I remember comparing himself to gods... he probably is the most narcisistic of the bunch. 

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Posted (edited)

 

 to you claim that he is becoming tywin lannister not ned  quote

Quote

And  he has chosen to be Tywin and not Ned Stark  to reclaim his identity

@Arthur Peres

 thats weird. He’s not becoming Tywin. Except perhaps in the sense of learning from his dad’s positive examples as a leader, and oddly enough, not everything Tywin did as a leader was bad. People are judged as good or bad based on their actions; actions are not judged as good or bad based on how we feel about the person. If Jaime picks up the occasional good idea from his dad, that’s neither bad nor the least bit unusual. But he’s not “becoming Tywin,” that’s ridiculous.

As for his “not becoming Eddard Stark,” I’m just like…he’s not supposed to become Ned. Just like he shouldn’t be trying to be Arthur Dayne, he should be trying to be Jaime Lannister. Ned set an outstanding example in many ways, but if we want a leader who’ll live to a ripe old age, we need someone who’s different from Ned.

 

he is on a path of redemption with affc being the prelude. and the claim that he broke his oaths to cat are bogus he deliberately made use of his reputation and the fact people will see the worst of him so that he wouldnt break his oath to cat to be kept from taking arms against the house by making the bluff about edmures kid etc .  (and no threatening  edmures kid isnt breaking the oath  nothing he did there broke his oath to cat no matter how much you stretch or bend over  backwards to make the claim ( which I have seen people do alot with jaime and refusing to admit their previous opinions that eddard or cats thoughts of him were wrong  ( and you went to the point where you claimed jaime was in the wrong for killing aerys and claim he is as narcissistic as cersei when no he isnt   and I cant take you seriously if he has any amount of narcissism its minor  at best  with it being lower than tyrions and tywins and cerseis.  while jaime loved cersei cersei saw jaime as a reflection of herself and as close to having sex with herself as possible she would rather jaime die with her than live without her while jaime would want cersei to live on.   

 seriously people are so desperate to see the worst in jaime that they try to stretch everything jaime saws or does into narcissism like claiming that jaime  thought that killing aerys would have been seen as a great deed because jaime lannister did it   or claiming that jaimes quote on there being no men like him as narcissism when no it isnt  narcissistic  (him showing a self loathing and hate for people hating him for his finest act

 I know if I were Jaime Lannister being called Kingslayer, having people revile me for my finest act would being accused of profaning my blade would sooner or later make me feel alone and cause me to hate myself. No amount of good looks, skill with a sword and cockiness would be able to prevent feelings like that.

 

and I am annoyed at people trying to twist jaime not telling people about the wildfire as a sin and that if anyone gets hurt its jaimes fault when no  ( and refusing to accept the fact that its likely that people wouldnt believe him that even if they saw the wildfire they wouldnt take that as proof that  aerys planned to burn kings landing to the ground ( just like they didnt when they found some in  the sept ( or not accepting that ned should have asked jaime why he killed the king. or even understand why jaime took neds ( who lost his father and brother to the mad kings cruelties ) look at the time  so hard   plus the fact that its likely that he felt guilty over standing by aerys other atrocitys like raping his wife or what he did to neds father and brother

 jaime took that  and understood how people would treat him from now on.

 jaime is an example of someone who was treated badly and it led to him deciding to  then let me be evil trope

 

The entire kingdom looked down on him for breaking his oath and killing the Mad King Aerys, giving him the mocking name of Kingslayer and an undeserved reputation as a scheming, treacherous backstabber- even though Aerys was about to have all of King's Landing (the capital city, with a population of about 500,000 people) burned down out of spite. After years of being called a monster for what he rightly considers his "finest act," it's not hard to see why he eventually chose to become like that out of cynicism 

 

  which shows him to be a better knight than barristan  who to this day doesnt think he did anything wrong letting aery's abuses go by 

) if he hadnt done that he would have been forced to break his oath against cat to keep his oaths as kingsguard and family (when anyone would be hurt  over that )   

 

when he has the right to expect sexual exclusivity now that roberts dead  given the promise

tyrion is the one becoming tywin

Jaime killing the king was a “moral” act.

He ignored his kingsguard vows (protect the king) in order to uphold his knightly vows (protect the innocent)

He has spent his whole life since suffering for doing the right thing. Jaime knew from an early age that doing the right thing was more important than keeping to the letter of a vow.

Just like Ned and probably Jon (I agree with your point about Jon not using a loophole) Jaime sacrificed his honour in order to do what was right.

 

 

jaime's spent over a decade getting shit on for doing the right thing, it’s only natural that he might start to think that being “good” is a fool’s game. ( and even then he knew how bad throwing bran was it outright stated in the text that he said the things he does for love with disdain ( which foreshadowed there being more to jaimes character ) and grrm outright had ned and cat sympathize

 

Ned thought, If it came to that, the life of some child I did not know, against Robb and Sansa and Arya and Bran and Rickon, what would I do? Even more so, what would Catelyn do, if it were Jon’s life, against the children of her body? He did not know. He prayed he never would. -AGOT Eddard XII

How fitting after all that it was Ned who thought this, the Ned Stark who Jaime loathed and yet whose approval he kinda craved

with why they did with what they did which is what george wanted

 

Edited by silverwolf22

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