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Discussing Sansa XXXIV: Winterfell Is Yours, Your Grace


Mladen

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9 hours ago, Error-504 said:

Nah, I don't hate Sansa, I just find her every bit as flawed as the rest of them. I just really dislike the ignorance of some of the posters that fail to understand her vast assortment of screw ups. I'm not even a big Jon/Dany fan tbh. More in jamies camp

I forgot about this.....thank you

I definitely think Sansa has screwed up a lot. That's how she learned a lot of what she does now.

 

I think some of us can get kind of defensive re: Sansa because there are a lot of people who don't recognize her character growth, or think she's going to do ____ evil thing, or just for some reason flat out hate her for really weird ass reasons.

Like I've personally never understood the viciousness some people feel in regards to her character. It's like she poisoned all the wells, killed twenty puppies, and set fire to an orphanage to them.

Which makes me go ???

 

So I can admit I sometimes overcompensate in defending her.

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41 minutes ago, Pandean said:

I definitely think Sansa has screwed up a lot. That's how she learned a lot of what she does now.

 

I think some of us can get kind of defensive re: Sansa because there are a lot of people who don't recognize her character growth, or think she's going to do ____ evil thing, or just for some reason flat out hate her for really weird ass reasons.

Like I've personally never understood the viciousness some people feel in regards to her character. It's like she poisoned all the wells, killed twenty puppies, and set fire to an orphanage to them.

Which makes me go ???

 

So I can admit I sometimes overcompensate in defending her.

I am team Jon/Dany but I feel that Sansa is justified in questioning their decisions. She is the Lady of Winterfell and Jon, Ary and Bran back. Any poor decisions can tear that all apart. She not Jon is the head of their family. She is acting that way. 

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2 hours ago, King Jon Snow Stark said:

I am team Jon/Dany but I feel that Sansa is justified in questioning their decisions. She is the Lady of Winterfell and Jon, Ary and Bran back. Any poor decisions can tear that all apart. She not Jon is the head of their family. She is acting that way. 

That does also make a lot of sense and I do agree. She's not being difficult for difficulties sake---the concerns she's raising are very legitimate.

The Northern lords already almost mutinied over Jon once and Jon's been mutinied before because while Jon is capable of command war-wise and  can see the bigger picture, he doesn't understand the millions of little social complexities that go into all those people all together, especially in different cultures. 

He's very much like "this is the threat, can we all get along NOW????" which is totally understandable and you'd hope that that would be the case but people unfortunately are more complex than that.

Honestly, I think Jon and Sansa together could make a great team if they stop questioning and doubting each other and start being more open and honest. Political team, I mean. I don't ship the two.

I do ship Jaime and Sansa and some other really weird ships that will obviously never happen because I think the characters would work well together but that's neither here nor there like if there's a good enough fanfic for a ship then I'll ship it don't kill me

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5 minutes ago, Pandean said:

That does also make a lot of sense and I do agree. She's not being difficult for difficulties sake---the concerns she's raising are very legitimate.

The Northern lords already almost mutinied over Jon once and Jon's been mutinied before because while Jon is capable of command war-wise and  can see the bigger picture, he doesn't understand the millions of little social complexities that go into all those people all together, especially in different cultures. 

He's very much like "this is the threat, can we all get along NOW????" which is totally understandable and you'd hope that that would be the case but people unfortunately are more complex than that.

Honestly, I think Jon and Sansa together could make a great team if they stop questioning and doubting each other and start being more open and honest. Political team, I mean. I don't ship the two.

I do ship Jaime and Sansa and some other really weird ships that will obviously never happen because I think the characters would work well together but that's neither here nor there like if there's a good enough fanfic for a ship then I'll ship it don't kill me

I think Sansa really does want to Jon’s most trusted advisor/partner. She knows what happened to Robb, Ned and Cat because they made mistakes and I don’t think she wants that to happen to The remaining members of her family. 

Is he still Warden? Little Bear seem to question his place there at the table.

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10 hours ago, Pandean said:

I definitely think Sansa has screwed up a lot. That's how she learned a lot of what she does now.

 

I think some of us can get kind of defensive re: Sansa because there are a lot of people who don't recognize her character growth, or think she's going to do ____ evil thing, or just for some reason flat out hate her for really weird ass reasons.

Like I've personally never understood the viciousness some people feel in regards to her character. It's like she poisoned all the wells, killed twenty puppies, and set fire to an orphanage to them.

Which makes me go ???

 

So I can admit I sometimes overcompensate in defending her.

It's because she has this smug, I know more than you attitude about her lately, and I don't think she has earned that right. Some of her recent decisions have been questionable at best, and it is as she is undermining Jon every chance she gets. It makes no sense in light of the current situation. Her concerns about Jon's decisions should be done in private. She, as the lady of WF could have done a much better job at paving the way for a smooth arrival when Jon and Dany arrived. This is an epic fail on her part, in my opinion. You don't worry about a small leak in the roof when a tsunami is approaching. She is failing at the most important aspect of her job, and people don't see it. It as though she has experienced a little bit of power, for once in her life, and it is addicting. 

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1 hour ago, Error-504 said:

It's because she has this smug, I know more than you attitude about her lately, and I don't think she has earned that right. Some of her recent decisions have been questionable at best, and it is as she is undermining Jon every chance she gets. It makes no sense in light of the current situation. Her concerns about Jon's decisions should be done in private. She, as the lady of WF could have done a much better job at paving the way for a smooth arrival when Jon and Dany arrived. This is an epic fail on her part, in my opinion. You don't worry about a small leak in the roof when a tsunami is approaching. She is failing at the most important aspect of her job, and people don't see it. It as though she has experienced a little bit of power, for once in her life, and it is addicting. 

Eh, I see it differently but whateves.

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1 hour ago, Error-504 said:

Will somebody tell me what the current exchange rate is for dragonglass? 

I think one shard of dragon glass should be equal to about 2 bushels of wheat maybe?

How would the North fair without that dragon glass? Hmmm?

 

Pretty sure Dany let Jon take the dragonglass for free (bending the knee probably helped) considering other than for killing wights and whatnot, it's kind of useless. 

But as a resource that you would trade in, I think that if you'd want to be technical, you'd probably trade a similar resource such as lumber or iron versus wheat.

Obligatory I am not an economic student or anything. 

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4 minutes ago, Pandean said:

Pretty sure Dany let Jon take the dragonglass for free (bending the knee probably helped) considering other than for killing wights and whatnot, it's kind of useless. 

But as a resource that you would trade in, I think that if you'd want to be technical, you'd probably trade a similar resource such as lumber or iron versus wheat.

Obligatory I am not an economic student or anything. 

I get all that (although she gave Jon the dragonglass before he bent the knee). 

I am just bringing up something else that needs to be taken into consideration. 

Right now I think in WF, dragonglass is worth more than gold. 

maybe Dany could not bring as much food as they would have liked because some of the wagons had to be used to haul all that dragonglass to WF?

 

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2 hours ago, Error-504 said:

I get all that (although she gave Jon the dragonglass before he bent the knee). 

I am just bringing up something else that needs to be taken into consideration. 

Right now I think in WF, dragonglass is worth more than gold. 

maybe Dany could not bring as much food as they would have liked because some of the wagons had to be used to haul all that dragonglass to WF?

 

Well, they were based off of Dragonstone, which if I remember correctly doesn't hold much more food than fish. So, I'm not sure they had a lot of food in the first place other than what was in Stannis's larders.

Obviously she could've gotten food from the loot train if it hadn't been burned. 

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I feel she isn't seeing the bigger picture.... she has every right not to trust anyone that isn't related or from the north after how she has been treated, and the northerners themselves also have every right but as Jon has repeatedly said to the point of beating a dead horse without their help they will lose plain and simple.

Deal with the main problem first then deal with the petty crap afterwards, all these points She,Arya and others are making are valid.... but completely pointless in the grand scheme of things and wasting time that could be spent better with dealing with the coming attack.

 

 

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14 hours ago, King Jon Snow Stark said:

 

 

 

I am team Jon/Dany but I feel that Sansa is justified in questioning their decisions. She is the Lady of Winterfell and Jon, Ary and Bran back. Any poor decisions can tear that all apart. She not Jon is the head of their family. She is acting that way. 

It's Ridiculous what good is arguing about it if none of them survive to see any of it through, the leaders should all just have agreed to stick a pin it until the battle was over... Jon's been flogging a dead horse trying to get this through to everyone that all seem far more concerned about what Jon is to them than the army of dead zombies about to come crashing down on them...

The only thing about that episode I can understand is Sams reveal which I don't think was told to cause any kind of upset in the camp or revolt, but more of him knowing his true roots incase he doesn't make it through the war to be told later hence the he needs to know now... not later.

 

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9 hours ago, StoneColdJorahMormont said:

I feel she isn't seeing the bigger picture.... she has every right not to trust anyone that isn't related or from the north after how she has been treated, and the northerners themselves also have every right but as Jon has repeatedly said to the point of beating a dead horse without their help they will lose plain and simple.

Deal with the main problem first then deal with the petty crap afterwards, all these points She,Arya and others are making are valid.... but completely pointless in the grand scheme of things and wasting time that could be spent better with dealing with the coming attack.

 

 

I think yeah, the big picture is the army of the dead and everything but I also think the idea of Sansa not seeing the 'big picture' is kind of flawed.

Because yes ideally they should be focused on the dead but they've also got a bunch of different people with different temperments under the same roof, much who are supporters or northern independence, who've already threatened to cast Jon aside once, at those emotions and instability with a bunch of foreigners who know nothing about their customs and all the little social complexities that go with it....it's impossible to just focus on the bigger picture.

Because if these people won't get along and have each others backs and whatnot things could go into chaos.

I think Sansa sees the small intricacies  that deal with court and politics and how all of those things effect each other--which is obvious because that's what she's good at. Whereas Jon can't for the life of him see any of that (which is how he got killed in the first place) but is able to see the big picture about the war and whatnot.

Neither side is wrong. They're just coming at the issue from two different places. Which is why I think if they learned to trust one another and be completely open the two of them could make a great team.

But alas...the show must have it's drama.

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9 minutes ago, Pandean said:

I think yeah, the big picture is the army of the dead and everything but I also think the idea of Sansa not seeing the 'big picture' is kind of flawed.

Because yes ideally they should be focused on the dead but they've also got a bunch of different people with different temperments under the same roof, much who are supporters or northern independence, who've already threatened to cast Jon aside once, at those emotions and instability with a bunch of foreigners who know nothing about their customs and all the little social complexities that go with it....it's impossible to just focus on the bigger picture.

Because if these people won't get along and have each others backs and whatnot things could go into chaos.

I think Sansa sees the small intricacies  that deal with court and politics and how all of those things effect each other--which is obvious because that's what she's good at. Whereas Jon can't for the life of him see any of that (which is how he got killed in the first place) but is able to see the big picture about the war and whatnot.

Neither side is wrong. They're just coming at the issue from two different places. Which is why I think if they learned to trust one another and be completely open the two of them could make a great team.

But alas...the show must have it's drama.

I agree with this.  I think a lot of this Dany/Sansa stuff is a bit of drama for drama's sake as they will need some conflict to mine until the battles start.  But I can also see everyone's POV here.  Sansa correctly observes both the political situation (that the Northerners who crowned Jon and didn't want a Targ queen are unhappy about Jon bending the knee) and the emotional situation (that Jon is in love with Dany and that may be impacting his decision-making).

I get that there is an apocalypse bearing down on everyone so that is where the drama for drama's sake comes into this, but I also get Sansa's perspective here (which Arya also gets at) that Jon must be looking to protect the Starks and the Northmen politically speaking and he has failed at that miserably (which again raises the question of why a marriage agreement between Dany and Jon hasn't already been announced since that would solve all these issues...but again we need drama :P).

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16 hours ago, StoneColdJorahMormont said:

I feel she isn't seeing the bigger picture.... she has every right not to trust anyone that isn't related or from the north after how she has been treated, and the northerners themselves also have every right but as Jon has repeatedly said to the point of beating a dead horse without their help they will lose plain and simple.

Deal with the main problem first then deal with the petty crap afterwards, all these points She,Arya and others are making are valid.... but completely pointless in the grand scheme of things and wasting time that could be spent better with dealing with the coming attack.

 

 

But then the same goes for Dany. If titles don't matter because the bigger picture (aka Army of the Dead) doesn't care about them...shouldn't Dany then also be of the mind that titles don't matter much in this situation? But she keeps expecting to be treated as Queen and makes it known how much she doesn't care for people who don't accept her title. Jon himself, the guy who said titles don't matter (when he justified giving his up), keeps insisting that Dany is Queen. So why does her title matter but his doesn't? Or titles in general? He's contradicting himself when he keeps insisting that 'Dany is Queen' while at the same time saying his title doesn't matter (or any other title for that matter I guess).

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20 minutes ago, Mystical said:

But then the same goes for Dany. If titles don't matter because the bigger picture (aka Army of the Dead) doesn't care about them...shouldn't Dany then also be of the mind that titles don't matter much in this situation? But she keeps expecting to be treated as Queen and makes it known how much she doesn't care for people who don't accept her title. Jon himself, the guy who said titles don't matter (when he justified giving his up), keeps insisting that Dany is Queen. So why does her title matter but his doesn't? Or titles in general? He's contradicting himself when he keeps insisting that 'Dany is Queen' while at the same time saying his title doesn't matter (or any other title for that matter I guess).

True but Danys was a reaction to how she was greeted initially when she arrived... had Sansa just kept her feelings to herself, they would have just got on with the preparations as was planned.

I really don't get it, Sansa all through the show has been able to bite her tongue/pretend she liked people for self preservation and it worked! she made it back to Winterfell alive, why couldn't she just do it one more time... she knows Dany is coming to help the fight and without her armies the north is lost.. why rock the boat.

I mean what it she truly expecting to come out of this ? imagine she did succeed and Jon Turned on Dany and she took her dragons and army and left... 

Maybe I've watched a different episode but the only time I've seen Dany actually mention her title was once in private with Jon due to how Sansa had been treating her which was a sign of frustration .. the other times anything about the title/north trusting her has been brought up it was Jon bringing it up, Sam bringing it up or Varys/Tyrion etc gossiping.

She has even sat quietly at their meetings allowing the north and its people decide the plan ahead, she has taken a back seat.

 

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18 minutes ago, StoneColdJorahMormont said:

True but Danys was a reaction to how she was greeted initially when she arrived... had Sansa just kept her feelings to herself, they would have just got on with the preparations as was planned.

I really don't get it, Sansa all through the show has been able to bite her tongue/pretend she liked people for self preservation and it worked! she made it back to Winterfell alive, why couldn't she just do it one more time... she knows Dany is coming to help the fight and without her armies the north is lost.. why rock the boat.

I mean what it she truly expecting to come out of this ? imagine she did succeed and Jon Turned on Dany and she took her dragons and army and left... 

If Daenerys takes her ball and goes home over it, leaving the North to die, then she's no true queen and has no business ruling, period. A sovereign agrees to protect their people--ALL of them. 

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