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Discussing Sansa XXXIV: Winterfell Is Yours, Your Grace

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Posted (edited)
30 minutes ago, Pandean said:

Tension doesn't equal betrayal though. It just equals tension and conflicting ideas. It's not a bad or evil thing in it's own right. 

The entire North is feeling tension re: Jon's decision right now. I don't think it's that out of place for Sansa to be feeling tension too.

 

Both Jon and Sansa have some validity to their positions:

Jon - Hey, I'm back, bringing a huge army and two dragons to fight the Dead and all I had to do was forfeit a crown I never wanted anyway.

Sansa - The Stark bannermen honored you with the kingship of the North, and you tossed it away because you wanted to get into the Dragon Queen's pants.  And how the 7 Hells am I going to feed 100,000 extra mouths and two fire-breathing dragons?

 

Hopefully, they'll reconcile soon, or while they're waiting to be slaughtered by the Dead.  I really don't want to go through another season wondering if Sansa will shove Jon under the proverbial bus like they kept hinting last season.  

Edited by Raksha 2014

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14 minutes ago, Error-504 said:

Oh boy, glover took his men home......yeah those 1,000 men are way more important than the two dragons and 100,000 men Dany brought into the fold.

I didn't see one request made by Dany for anyone to bend the knee. Did you? What I an saying is, Dany offered her help without requiring Jon to bend the knee. Jon took it upon himself to do so. so, yeah, maybe Jon's act of bending the knee, raised Dany's expectations of what to expect from the North, perfectly understandable. 

It's also perfectly understandable that the North, including Sansa, wouldn't instantly be welcoming of her.  Their last dealings with both southern rulers and Targs haven't exactly gone well.  Plus, you know, she has two massive dragons.  She could "burn them all!" a lot more effectively than her dad could have.  Sam found that out for himself.

Dany had a pretty rocky beginning with Jon too from what I remember.  Should he get criticism too for not paying homage to her right away?

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1 minute ago, Raksha 2014 said:

 

Both Jon and Sansa have some validity to their positions:

Jon - Hey, I'm back, bringing a huge arm and two dragons to fight the Dead and all I had to do was forfeit a crown I never wanted anyway.

Sansa - The Stark bannermen honored you with the kingship of the North, and you tossed it away because you wanted to get into the Dragon Queen's pants.  And how the 7 Hells am I going to feed 100,000 extra mouths and two fire-breathing dragons?

 

Hopefully, they'll reconcile soon, or while they're waiting to be slaughtered by the Dead.  I really don't want to go through another season wondering if Sansa will shove Jon under the proverbial bus like they kept hinting last season.  

I think they will. In the end they're Starks and they're a pack (no matter Jon's parentage).

Personally the Will-Sansa-Betray-Jon/Arya/etc. hinting is getting old. We already know it's not going to happen. It didn't happen last season, wasn't even close to happening, etc. etc.

Jon's right that they do need the Armies and the dragons to fight the Undead but Sansa is also right. They're just looking at the situation from two very different perspectives. Which is okay. They're very different people whose roles have them in very different places.

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Posted (edited)

I never liked Sansa tbh, but i can't blame her, she is pretty much right in her actions, Tyrion trusting cersei and counting on her army is just beyond stupid, by the way, how could Tyrion become SO incompetent in these last seasons? i would not trust bearded Saint Tyrion to be hand of the tavern keeper.

Jon snow just tossing the crown away, bringing a foreign monarch to rule over the northmen, who just proclaimed their independence?

But Arya is just insufferable at this point, she is like every internet edgy teenager personification.
 

Edited by BlueNightzx

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9 minutes ago, Risto said:

And Jon made a mistake again. He did the same with wildlings. He disregarded the emotions, the history people had and that eventually backfired. And he did that because he fell in love. He wasn't even able to respond on that. Because, as much as he wants to protect the North, he can't negate that he is in love with Dany and that clouded his judgement regarding bringing her to WF in such fashion.

In this war, 1000 men can easily be turned against them. Everyone who is not fighting for them, can fight against them. Dany most certainly expects the obedience and her conversation with Jon in this episode proves that. Unless you want to claim that Dany is OK with North not seeing her as their Queen. 

 

None of this makes sense. any sense. Which is more important, 100,000 men, or 1,000 men? Good riddance to the Glovers, they were fair weather allies at best, he choose not to support Jon in the BotB's.

I laugh at you and everyone else's opinion that Jon should have done this differently, should have done that differently. spare me the nonsense. Jon didn't have time to do anything differently, or did you miss that? The White Walkers will be at WF in what appears to be 2-3 days according to the preview. Meanwhile people are preaching that Jon should have spent months arranging this so that things went all nicey nice. 

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1 minute ago, Error-504 said:

None of this makes sense. any sense. Which is more important, 100,000 men, or 1,000 men? Good riddance to the Glovers, they were fair weather allies at best, he choose not to support Jon in the BotB's.

That 1,000 men is just going to be another thousand added to the insane amount of wights in the NK's army. So, yeah, I think it does matter.

Everyone who dies in this war can become part of the other side. And IMO the Glovers will probably die since they most likely are not going to be able to wait out all the dead people in their castle like they could do a siege or whatever.

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8 minutes ago, Tyrion Lannister said:

It's also perfectly understandable that the North, including Sansa, wouldn't instantly be welcoming of her.  Their last dealings with both southern rulers and Targs haven't exactly gone well.  Plus, you know, she has two massive dragons.  She could "burn them all!" a lot more effectively than her dad could have.  Sam found that out for himself.

Dany had a pretty rocky beginning with Jon too from what I remember.  Should he get criticism too for not paying homage to her right away?

yeah, maybe they should have held a few formal meet and greets, a picnic, and a tourney or two for the Northerners to "get to know Dany" first...right? 

Newsflash......the Nk will be at WF in a manner of days, not years. 

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3 minutes ago, Error-504 said:

None of this makes sense. any sense. Which is more important, 100,000 men, or 1,000 men? Good riddance to the Glovers, they were fair weather allies at best, he choose not to support Jon in the BotB's.

I laugh at you and everyone else's opinion that Jon should have done this differently, should have done that differently. spare me the nonsense. Jon didn't have time to do anything differently, or did you miss that? The White Walkers will be at WF in what appears to be 2-3 days according to the preview. Meanwhile people are preaching that Jon should have spent months arranging this so that things went all nicey nice. 

Actually, everyone should  have left Winterfell and gone South as fast as possible and staked out a better defensive position, in an area where the dragons will stay healthy and maybe an island is nearby.  Gee, it's too bad there isn't any place like that available for them. Oh wait.

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1 minute ago, Error-504 said:

None of this makes sense. any sense. Which is more important, 100,000 men, or 1,000 men? Good riddance to the Glovers, they were fair weather allies at best, he choose not to support Jon in the BotB's.

I laugh at you and everyone else's opinion that Jon should have done this differently, should have done that differently. spare me the nonsense. Jon didn't have time to do anything differently, or did you miss that? The White Walkers will be at WF in what appears to be 2-3 days according to the preview. Meanwhile people are preaching that Jon should have spent months arranging this so that things went all nicey nice. 

Jon's action are correct, i think no one is questioning that, allowing the windlings to enter was the right path, allying with Dany, even if he had to sacrifice his crown in the bargain was the correct choice, but there is more than just the big picture,there is the day to day relations, the morale, the local politics, thats exactly how he got killed in the first place, he failed to see the implications of his actions on the short term

it was the same with his father really, the eagerness of Rhaegar to fufill the prophecy cost him and his family (and allies) everything

and now he is doing the same thing again with the northen lords, he is failing to see the short term consequences of his actions, even if they're for the good of the realm.

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1 minute ago, Cas Stark said:

Actually, everyone should  have left Winterfell and gone South as fast as possible and staked out a better defensive position, in an area where the dragons will stay healthy and maybe an island is nearby.  Gee, it's too bad there isn't any place like that available for them. Oh wait.

Deepwood motte would be a good call, but i think winterfell "magic" will have some role to play.

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3 minutes ago, Pandean said:

That 1,000 men is just going to be another thousand added to the insane amount of wights in the NK's army. So, yeah, I think it does matter.

Everyone who dies in this war can become part of the other side. And IMO the Glovers will probably die since they most likely are not going to be able to wait out all the dead people in their castle like they could do a siege or whatever.

which is more important, 100,000 or 1,000? 

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The part that I found a little odd was that Danny didn't recognize what Jon's ability to ride dragons means. Or maybe she did.

We are still into some serious aunt/nephew issues here. Just sayin'.

Looks to me as if the ending of the show is going to be much less complex than the books. I can't remember if lightbringer was brought up in the show. Can see a lot of curlicues likely there in the books. The show just puts us down in the crypt. 

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1 minute ago, BlueNightzx said:

Deepwood motte would be a good call, but i think winterfell "magic" will have some role to play.

Is there WF magic in the show, though?  Everyone seems to have forgotten about the hot springs that run under the castle, let alone any spells or anything like that.

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If someone is talking to me and I don't respond then I apologize, the scrolling on this site is making my virtigo go crazy and I keep needing to take breaks because of it.

 

I knew I should've looked away at the dragon riding sequence but it looked so cool. Ugh. 

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Posted (edited)
19 minutes ago, Tyrion Lannister said:

Dany had a pretty rocky beginning with Jon too from what I remember.  Should he get criticism too for not paying homage to her right away?

After following months of discussion here and elsewhere, everyone on the 'screw the Northerners, screw Sansa' side has no rebuttals for that. Every time someone mentions that they all don't know Dany and that even Jon wasn't immediately taken with Dany, it's outright ignored by those fans. Because it doesn't fit their narrative and makes hating certain characters for valid reasons that much harder.

Edited by Mystical

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5 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

Actually, everyone should  have left Winterfell and gone South as fast as possible and staked out a better defensive position, in an area where the dragons will stay healthy and maybe an island is nearby.  Gee, it's too bad there isn't any place like that available for them. Oh wait.

Debatable, but interesting. I don't think they had time for all that tbh. 

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1 minute ago, Error-504 said:

which is more important, 100,000 or 1,000? 

In this war? I would say losing 1,000 men to the NK's massive army is more important than the 100,000 that they still have. Especially since as those 100,000 start falling, they will just add onto the army.

 

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Just now, Error-504 said:

yeah, maybe they should have held a few formal meet and greets, a picnic, and a tourney or two for the Northerners to "get to know Dany" first...right? 

Newsflash......the Nk will be at WF in a manner of days, not years. 

Do you think I don't know that?  Obviously the war is here, whether they're ready for it or not.  That doesn't mean the North, or Sansa, will instantly trust Daenerys, her dragons or her army.  That's just human nature.  But Sansa seems to be held to a higher standard than any other character in the series by fans.

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19 minutes ago, BlueNightzx said:

I tought that the whole "Jon snow the white wolf" king in the north was a bit rushed and created more problems than anything, i don't believe that with Bran there, even if he didn't wanted, the northen lords would chose a Bastard to rule them, no matther how honorable or accomplished he might be, so quickly, and the way that Jon snow pretty much tossed the crown right into the garbage can is a tastement for that, that title and nomination had no weight.

Yeah, in the books (if George ever finishes them) it will play out differently.  Jon attacks Winterfell, is defeated, but then an army from the Vale arrives with Sansa, but the Northern lords present Robb's letter (which doesn't exist on the show). 

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2 minutes ago, BlueNightzx said:

Deepwood motte would be a good call, but i think winterfell "magic" will have some role to play.

I am pretty sure that in the books we will find that Lyanna's tomb plays a major role.

As far as the show goes, the idea seems to be that they can't evacuate as far as kings landing. Besides which, they can't trust Cersei.

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