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Discussing Sansa XXXIV: Winterfell Is Yours, Your Grace

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Posted (edited)
11 minutes ago, Ice Queen said:

If Daenerys takes her ball and goes home over it, leaving the North to die, then she's no true queen and has no business ruling, period. A sovereign agrees to protect their people--ALL of them. 

I don't think she ever would leave of her own choice, however if Sansa manages to drive a wedge between Jon and Dany before the war has started leading to the Northmen/Jons followers also taking up arms against her armies... She may see it as a case of how can I help those that don't want to helped. and regretfully turn her back on them to avoid pointless deaths.

How can you forcefully stay somewhere you're not welcome even if what you are doing is for their own good ?... Best case scenario if Sansa does drive a wedge between them and Dany is forced to pack up is she hangs around close by enough to intervene later on without the Norths blessing.

Edited by StoneColdJorahMormont

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21 minutes ago, StoneColdJorahMormont said:

I really don't get it, Sansa all through the show has been able to bite her tongue/pretend she liked people for self preservation and it worked! she made it back to Winterfell alive, why couldn't she just do it one more time... she knows Dany is coming to help the fight and without her armies the north is lost.. why rock the boat.

Because Sansa has had it I think. She did everything for him last Season as he sprung the regency on her and he threw it all away because he still doesn't understand how people work. She kept the North united even with all the grumbling they did, she took care of the logistics (from food to refugees) and she even declined when they wanted to make her Queen because she believed in Jon. And then he threw it all away without so much as a warning. 'Hey I'm going to Dragonstone to get some dragon glass' followed by weeks/months of no communication and then suddenly 'Hey, I knelt and gave the North away.'. Frankly, I would had had it too. Granted, that's not Dany's fault. But Sansa spend enough time South to know the worst case scenarios of how rulers get others to kneel. And Jon didn't help matters by lying or at least by omitting the truth. That Dany swore allegiance to him without the requirement to kneel. And once she noticed at the table how Dany was looking at Jon, naturally the question of knee bending followed later.

Sansa knows that titles kept the whole thing together. Titles are important, Jon just doesn't seem to grasp their significance. Hell even our military or government has titles/ranks for a reason. They are designed to keep things in order, to delegate.

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1 minute ago, Mystical said:

Because Sansa has had it I think. She did everything for him last Season as he sprung the regency on her and he threw it all away because he still doesn't understand how people work. She kept the North united even with all the grumbling they did, she took care of the logistics (from food to refugees) and she even declined when they wanted to make her Queen because she believed in Jon. And then he threw it all away without so much as a warning. 'Hey I'm going to Dragonstone to get some dragon glass' followed by weeks/months of no communication and then suddenly 'Hey, I knelt and gave the North away.'. Frankly, I would had had it too. Granted, that's not Dany's fault. But Sansa spend enough time South to know the worst case scenarios of how rulers get others to kneel. And Jon didn't help matters by lying or at least by omitting the truth. That Dany swore allegiance to him without the requirement to kneel. And once she noticed at the table how Dany was looking at Jon, naturally the question of knee bending followed later.

Sansa knows that titles kept the whole thing together. Titles are important, Jon just doesn't seem to grasp their significance. Hell even our military or government has titles/ranks for a reason. They are designed to keep things in order, to delegate.

No one is saying she isn't right, I agree with everything she is saying the problem some people have is her timing to bring it up... no good can come from it at THIS point, it is a tiny issue in the grand scheme of things happening.

If they had a few weeks/months before the Whites were at their door then yes working this stuff out could potentially work in their favour.

But bringing it up when their is not enough time to actually work it out, is flirting with potential loss of life/people falling out/people leaving before the Walkers have arrived and they need all the numbers they can get.

Everyone should just be putting this stuff to one side until its over then deal with it.

Imagine you were fighting with your family over a serious issue only to learn the world was going to be under attack from an alien invasion do you reckon you would all still continue squabbling or be like right screw all that crap how are we going to survive tomorrow survival plan time.

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Posted (edited)
17 minutes ago, StoneColdJorahMormont said:

I don't think she ever would leave of her own choice, however if Sansa manages to drive a wedge between Jon and Dany before the war has started leading to the Northmen/Jons followers also taking up arms against her armies... She may see it as a case of how can I help those that don't want to helped. and regretfully turn her back on them to avoid pointless deaths.

How can you forcefully stay somewhere you're not welcome even if what you are doing is for their own good ?... Best case scenario if Sansa does drive a wedge between them and Dany is forced to pack up is she hangs around close by enough to intervene later on without the Norths blessing.

It's not a question of how she feels about it. It's a question of her duty--this isn't a one way street where people do homage to her and swear fealty and get nothing in return for it. Jon bent the knee for the North. That confers responsibility on her as his sovereign to protect her people to the best of her ability. 

If she leaves, she's abdicating any claim to the North. The North would be under NO obligation to recognize her as anything. 

Edit: This was a no brainer for Stannis, and Ned would agree. That Dany wouldn't understand that is very telling.

Edited by Ice Queen

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I see it as another example of the showrunners not understanding their own show. 

They obviously want Sansa's actions to appear strong, to show her in a good light as a leader, since Arya told the audience she's smarter than Tywin Lannister in the episode, LOL LOL.  But, they don't.  They are petty and ill timed, a massive army of undead magical zombies has crashed through the wall.  That her half brother/cousin bent the knee should be on page 5 of pressing concerns, and shading the woman who brought a huge army and some dragons is dumb. Bickering about titles before a live or die battle coming in a few days is dumb. Even if she's right, it's dumb.

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Just now, Ice Queen said:

It's not a question of how she feels about it. It's a question of her duty--this isn't a one way street where people do homage to her and swear fealty and get nothing in return for it. Jon bent the knee for the North. That confers responsibility on her as his sovereign to protect her people to the best of her ability. 

If she leaves, she's abdicating any claim to the North. The North would be under NO obligation to recognize her as anything. 

Yes this is true but if he was to turn on her, then she is surely relieved of her duty. To retaliate doesn't show any less of a claim to the North sparing peoples lives if anything would surely prove herself more to the people than killing them?

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Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

I see it as another example of the showrunners not understanding their own show. 

They obviously want Sansa's actions to appear strong, to show her in a good light as a leader, since Arya told the audience she's smarter than Tywin Lannister in the episode, LOL LOL.  But, they don't.  They are petty and ill timed, a massive army of undead magical zombies has crashed through the wall.  That her half brother/cousin bent the knee should be on page 5 of pressing concerns, and shading the woman who brought a huge army and some dragons is dumb. Bickering about titles before a live or die battle coming in a few days is dumb. Even if she's right, it's dumb.

This is my point exactly, no one is questioning Sansas feelings as she is entitled to have them... but to be bringing them up now and causing discontent when they are about to fight the biggest battle of their lives is just nonsense. It wouldn't happen and if anyone was to act like this when death was at their door that person would most likely be thrown into a jail cell until the war was beginning or over to prevent them unsettling people more than they need be.

 

I'm probably gonna get my knick knacks kicked for this but I don't know if it was written to be so or just a coincidence....

But the only people trying to make an issue out of this stuff are Female characters...

Sansa ,Lady Mormont, Arya..... ( possibly due to not having had an interaction with what's to come, underplaying it)

Where as the guys( Jon,Bran) are like come on.,... we have more pressing issues to be dealing with. ( having seen and fought them know how serious things are about to get)

Edited by StoneColdJorahMormont

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Posted (edited)
21 minutes ago, StoneColdJorahMormont said:

Yes this is true but if he was to turn on her, then she is surely relieved of her duty. To retaliate doesn't show any less of a claim to the North sparing peoples lives if anything would surely prove herself more to the people than killing them?

 No. These are a people who have been ruled by the Starks for 8000 years. Ned was well loved and well repected as overlord and as a man because he was honorable and just, and both Robb and Jon are cut from the same cloth. 

Ned died rather than abandon Westeros to the Lannisters. He would not look kindly on a queen who left her people to die. And can you imagine what Stannis would say? 

Compare the actual leadership of Ned, who has an Arthurian relationship with his people and understands that his wealth and position flow from the land and the people in it, and it's his job to ensure prosperity for all. There must always be a Stark in Winterfell, remember. Just like Arthur's abandonment of his people for Rome, bad things happen when a sovereign or overlord leaves their people undefended.

It's a two way street. Now compare Ned with Daenerys should she walk away no matter the inducement. They would never accept her after that--it would be like accepting the Boltons. A king (or queen) that doesn't protect his people is no king at all. 

Edit: Jon is focused on the battle right now. I doubt there will be open hostility, but it might be pretty damned tense.

Edited by Ice Queen

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Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, Ice Queen said:

 No. These are a people who have been ruled by the Starks for 8000 years. Ned was well loved and well repected as overlord and as a man because he was honorable and just, and both Robb and Jon are cut from the same cloth. 

Ned died rather than abandon Westeros to the Lannisters. He would not look kindly on a queen who left her people to die. And can you imagine what Stannis would say? 

The contrast of the actual leadership  of Ned, who has an Arthurian relationship with his people and understands that his wealth and position flow from the land and the people in it, and it's his job to ensure prosperity for all. There must always be a Stark in Winterfell, remember. Just like Arthur's abandonment of his people for Rome, bad things happen when a sovereign or overlord leaves their people undefended.

It's a two way street. Now compare Ned with Daenerys should she walk away no matter the inducement. They would never accept her after that--it would be like accepting the Boltons. A king (or queen) that doesn't protect his people is no king at all. 

There is a massive difference Ned was loved and the majority didn't dispute his rule, so he was never put in the same position to see how he would have reacted.

Had his own people in its entirety  turned on him and he wasn't welcome no longer at Winterfell to the point they were ready to take up arms against him and his few loyal followers do you honestly think he would have fought? or do you think the caring Ned a man that loved his people even if they weren't thinking clearly in his eyes.. would have left as they wished honouring their choice to avoid blood shed and looked to regain his seat in a peaceful manner.

This isn't 50/50 if Jon turns then the whole of the north will side with him or if not with him then Sansa, it's quite obvious Dany is looking to take the peaceful route by aligning with Jon and having the north follow his wishes.

If the North make it very clear they don't want her there, then what kind of queen doesn't respect her peoples wishes.

Edited by StoneColdJorahMormont

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28 minutes ago, StoneColdJorahMormont said:

This is my point exactly, no one is questioning Sansas feelings as she is entitled to have them... but to be bringing them up now and causing discontent when they are about to fight the biggest battle of their lives is just nonsense. It wouldn't happen and if anyone was to act like this when death was at their door that person would most likely be thrown into a jail cell until the war was beginning or over to prevent them unsettling people more than they need be.

 

I'm probably gonna get my knick knacks kicked for this but I don't know if it was written to be so or just a coincidence....

But the only people trying to make an issue out of this stuff are Female characters...

Sansa ,Lady Mormont, Arya..... ( possibly due to not having had an interaction with what's to come, underplaying it)

Where as the guys( Jon,Bran) are like come on.,... we have more pressing issues to be dealing with. ( having seen and fought them know how serious things are about to get)

I agree w/that as well.  As far as the women, to me, the show is sometimes clumsy in terms of it's portrayal of women so often veers from badass into a bitchy cat fight stereotype, although my guess is this is unintentional on their part.

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Posted (edited)
15 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

I agree w/that as well.  As far as the women, to me, the show is sometimes clumsy in terms of it's portrayal of women so often veers from badass into a bitchy cat fight stereotype, although my guess is this is unintentional on their part.

I'm not so sure of all the females at Winterfell with a voice Arya is the one making the least fuss about all this titles stuff, she made one remark as quick reminder and didn't bring it up again... due to her focus most likely being on the bigger matter at hand... and this is likely down to the fact she has actually seen battle to some degree. 

She hasn't encountered the Whites so she isn't as overly shaken by their arrival as the likes of Jon, Jorah,Tyrion etc... but her head is still in the right place.

The fighting over petty stuff is coming from those that have not been in battle.

When the battle begins and the people see Jon and Dany riding their dragons fighting while Sansa is set on her horse at the back of the line... they will not be in any doubt where Jon or even Danys allegiance lies

Same goes for Tyrion charging in and getting knocked out or any other foreigner doing their bit... this is why its pointless to argue just now... let their actions in the war show who they really are.

Edited by StoneColdJorahMormont

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Here is Miss Turner's interview with Dr Phil

There are some interesting moments and it was just another remainder of how mean comments can hurt someone. Especially if that someone is in her teens.

First, Miss Clarke with her surgeries now Miss Turner with depression... It seems that the "Game of Thrones" set was rather intense.

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On 4/14/2019 at 10:48 PM, bloodsteel bitterraven said:

Nah, I think your favorite character should die.  Happy now?

My favorite character should live.  Sansa and Jon should die.

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