[Spoilers] E801 Discussion

[Corvinus85]

5 minutes ago, briantw said:

So in the previews for next week's episode, there's a shot of a trebuchet outside of Winterfell firing during daylight.  That's interesting.  

I'll remind that showcase wight came at Cersei in broad daylight, in fair weather KL. So, yeah, consistency...

[bloodsteel bitterraven]

1 minute ago, Danelle said:

Is he still? I thought that Jon was no longer affiliated with the Night's Watch. Family bonds in Got can get confusing.

In the sense that Sam knows Jon better than anyone in the world, and vice-versa.  The Stark siblings have been apart for so long, that they don't have that relationship that Jon and Sam have.  Plus, Jon was much older than Bran when they lived together, he probably still sees him as a little boy.

[bloodsteel bitterraven]

Can we discuss the body part art at the Last Hearth?  It looks like we might be getting an explanation for what that symbol is.  Any thoughts?  Ideas?

[briantw]

3 minutes ago, Corvinus said:

I'll remind that showcase wight came at Cersei in broad daylight, in fair weather KL. So, yeah, consistency...

Holy shit I never even thought about that.  

[starklover]

4 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

I hated the Tarly burning scene in S7, but imo it was the set-up for Dany "mad queen" perception. The maesters at the Citadel hadn't told Sam about it in S7, and now we know why... d&d were keeping that info for Dany to reveal to Sam, and since it was son and father, that was used by Sam to question her when he talked to Jon: she did the same thing that her father did... roasted a father and son.

i didnt like it either. i think she wants people to fear her. sam was very upset about it. not sure jon would have done the same thing or not.

[sweetsunray]

2 minutes ago, King of the Wall said:

I never heard this theory before. Has it been discussed in other places before?

Kingmonkey posted an essay "Eddard in Wonderland" here several yaers ago, and I posted mine here and on my blog back then too: https://sweeticeandfiresunray.com/2015/10/30/the-cursed-souls-of-eddard-and-robert/ Think Lady Gwyn of Radiowesteros also suggested such a possible reading of the ToJ dream in her essay about it.

It's based on the question-answer formula between the KG and Ned, that are typical for Arthurian literature. You've got a person who wants to gain passage into a tower or to cross a bridge, but he has to get past guards. The guards ask questions, the hero needs to give the correct answers. However, in the dream it's the other way around: Ned's asking the questions, the guards answer. This suggests that the hero is not seeking entrance, but a reversal, and thus wants to leave. In my analysis I point out that the dream suggests Lyana is already dead during the battle, and thus Ned finding her happened before. You get rid of the awkwardness of KG not letting her brother through... they did allow him in. But after she's dead, you end up with 2 guardian profiles - those who regard him as king, and the other who doesn't but still wants to protect him because he's family.

[TheSeason]

3 minutes ago, bloodsteel bitterraven said:

Can we discuss the body part art at the Last Hearth?  It looks like we might be getting an explanation for what that symbol is.  Any thoughts?  Ideas?

Looked to me like The Winter Sun (a huge part of ASoIaF mythos); note the prior(?) scene of the arrival of Alys Karstark and the emphasis upon her ancestral device (the white winter sun, "better than an onion" is in fact a similar depiction to Davos's device of the black ship--the void of space--carrying the white onion on its banner. It's The Red Comet come again.) My guess.

[BlueNightzx]

Tha Tarly burning was an awful idea, but it fits with her realization in the end of ADWD, i think book dany will be even more ruthless.

[bloodsteel bitterraven]

Just now, TheSeason said:

Looked to me like The Winter Sun (a huge part of ASoIaF mythos); note the prior(?) scene of the arrival of Alys Karstark and the emphasis upon her ancestral device (the white winter sun, "better than an onion" is in fact a similar depiction to Davos's device of the black ship--the void of space--carrying the white onion on its banner. It's The Red Comet come again.) My guess.

Interesting.

[sweetsunray]

Just now, BlueNightzx said:

Tha Tarly burning was an awful idea, but it fits with her realization in the end of ADWD, i think book dany will be even more ruthless.

Agreed with the latter.

[BlueNightzx]

1 minute ago, sweetsunray said:

Kingmonkey posted an essay "Eddard in Wonderland" here several yaers ago, and I posted mine here and on my blog back then too: https://sweeticeandfiresunray.com/2015/10/30/the-cursed-souls-of-eddard-and-robert/ Think Lady Gwyn of Radiowesteros also suggested such a possible reading of the ToJ dream in her essay about it.

It's based on the question-answer formula between the KG and Ned, that are typical for Arthurian literature. You've got a person who wants to gain passage into a tower or to cross a bridge, but he has to get past guards. The guards ask questions, the hero needs to give the correct answers. However, in the dream it's the other way around: Ned's asking the questions, the guards answer. This suggests that the hero is not seeking entrance, but a reversal, and thus wants to leave. In my analysis I point out that the dream suggests Lyana is already dead during the battle, and thus Ned finding her happened before. You get rid of the awkwardness of KG not letting her brother through... they did allow him in. But after she's dead, you end up with 2 guardian profiles - those who regard him as king, and the other who doesn't but still wants to protect him because he's family.

Thats very interesting, and makes much more sense, thank you for sharing this.

[J. Stargaryen]

1 minute ago, sweetsunray said:

Kingmonkey posted an essay "Eddard in Wonderland" here several yaers ago, and I posted mine here and on my blog back then too: https://sweeticeandfiresunray.com/2015/10/30/the-cursed-souls-of-eddard-and-robert/ Think Lady Gwyn of Radiowesteros also suggested such a possible reading of the ToJ dream in her essay about it.

It's based on the question-answer formula between the KG and Ned, that are typical for Arthurian literature. You've got a person who wants to gain passage into a tower or to cross a bridge, but he has to get past guards. The guards ask questions, the hero needs to give the correct answers. However, in the dream it's the other way around: Ned's asking the questions, the guards answer. This suggests that the hero is not seeking entrance, but a reversal, and thus wants to leave. In my analysis I point out that the dream suggests Lyana is already dead during the battle, and thus Ned finding her happened before. You get rid of the awkwardness of KG not letting her brother through... they did allow him in. But after she's dead, you end up with 2 guardian profiles - those who regard him as king, and the other who doesn't but still wants to protect him because he's family.

I don't rule this idea out, but I think it makes just as much sense that the KG wouldn't let Ned through because of what happened during the Sack of KL. The KG might know Ned was there but not that objected to the slaying of Rhaegar's children.

[Danelle]

1 hour ago, sweetsunray said:

I hated the Tarly burning scene in S7, but imo it was the set-up for Dany "mad queen" perception. The maesters at the Citadel hadn't told Sam about it in S7, and now we know why... d&d were keeping that info for Dany to reveal to Sam, and since it was son and father, that was used by Sam to question her when he talked to Jon: she did the same thing that her father did... roasted a father and son.

You know I always thought that Cersei had Mad Queen vibes but it is interesting to consider that Dany might actually be perceived as a Mad Queen. What I love in this series is that an event from a previus season can be addressed much later with a deep impact. Think of Jorah when he was told by Tyrion that his dad died.

But yeah, even though the circumstances eere different there is an obvious parallel with Lord Rickard and Brandon. 

Wonder if Jaime will use it for his defence. In season one he did remind Ned of the terrible way his dad and brother died. Killing Aerys felt like justice. 

[bloodsteel bitterraven]

18 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

In the books he wanted to declare for Stannis and send a letter by raven to him IIRC. He wanted to protect Jon, but he didn't want to make him king. And that imo was what the fight with the kg at ToJ was about... that the fight happened after he found Lyanna and her son, that the KG wanted to make him king, but Ned didn't.

I have to disagree with this, or at least express my doubts.  I do agree that the Kingsguard wanted to protect Jon because he was the King in their mind, but I'm not sure Ned was aware of that.  That would imply their conversation was long enough for them to explain to Ned what really had happened between Rhaegar and Lyanna.  I think Ned just wanted to get to Lyanna.

[sweetsunray]

1 minute ago, J. Stargaryen said:

I don't rule this idea out, but I think it makes just as much sense that the KG wouldn't let Ned through because of what happened during the Sack of KL. The KG might know Ned was there but not that objected to the slaying of Rhaegar's children.

Up to a point yes, but all the other Lyanna allusions in aGoT, including the one at the tourney, are about Ned starting to doubt whether Robert was the king to back or not, and often always versus Lyanna. It's there with the Knight of Flowers (wearing blue flowers) and the "black" horny stallion that Clegane rides at the tourney. It's there when he remembers Lyanna's words about Robert. So, Ned's mind is mostly working overtime on whether he made the right choice to believe in Robert. The sole alternative at the ToJ was Jon, whom the KG backed.

[bloodsteel bitterraven]

11 minutes ago, TheSeason said:

Looked to me like The Winter Sun (a huge part of ASoIaF mythos); note the prior(?) scene of the arrival of Alys Karstark and the emphasis upon her ancestral device (the white winter sun, "better than an onion" is in fact a similar depiction to Davos's device of the black ship--the void of space--carrying the white onion on its banner. It's The Red Comet come again.) My guess.

By the way, is there a link to any discussions on the importance of the Winter Sun?  I admit I haven't heard any such theories before.

[sweetsunray]

4 minutes ago, bloodsteel bitterraven said:

I have to disagree with this, or at least express my doubts.  I do agree that the Kingsguard wanted to protect Jon because he was the King in their mind, but I'm not sure Ned was aware of that.  That would imply their conversation was long enough for them to explain to Ned what really had happened between Rhaegar and Lyanna.  I think Ned just wanted to get to Lyanna.

the conversation in the dream is symbolic and a synopsis because it's a dream, not a memory. George has said to not take the conversation completely literal.

Once Ned found Lyanna and her child, he knew the child would be regarded as heir. My point is that Ned got to Lyanna first, and that the KG didn't oppose him saying goodbye to a dying Lyanna. They did however wanted to stop him from taking her child to hide him so Robert could sit the throne instead.

[TheSeason]

1 hour ago, bloodsteel bitterraven said:

Interesting.

Oh. Meant to add that it's also a depiction of the tree upon which the Children of the Forest made the first White Walker (show verse*). Symbol was there too. (Also they made the same symbol at the Fist of the First Men. Remember Jon, Mance, Tormund, Orrell, and Ygritte's scene in Season 03?)

*Book verse, we must ask ourselves why they're called both "Children of the Forest" (children have parents; the Mother is in the Wood) and "those who sing the song of earth and stone" (the Mother in the Wood is also the earth and stone--the earth deity--whose song they "sing" being, of course, also "the song of ice and fire"). $0.02.

Edit: Just watched the scene again and, although it isn't a perfect parallel of Azor Ahai slaying Nissa Nissa and the cycle of Trios the Three-Headed Dragon/Three-Eyed Crow/Sphinx triune deity (the sun slaying the moon, but also the sun slaying the earth, since she's both), you even see Azor Ahai/Last Hero figure Beric Dondarrion slay the Umber child wight with his flaming sword--the red comet). So, reiterating again the Winter Sun/Azor Ahai doing his icky villainous thing. 

However, as J. Stargaryen mentions, the Winter Sun is also a symbol of death (the seasons of the sun corresponding to the other aspects of the deity -- Spring/birth, Summer/growth, Autumn/decay/aging, Winter/death) and the sun/son play on words, you're brought back to Azor Ahai's/the Father's slaying of his own son (who is the sun's son) and solar figure himself, the Green Giant (the earth--earth being mother followed by son; queen followed by prince; that is: king's blood to wake the stone dragon, the (mother) first and then the son, so both die kings(regents), etc.) and thereby we do indeed see that double symbol of winter sun accounts for both the murderer and his victim (the father first and then the son, so both die kings--which is sort of fudged in that the father kills his son but then the mother--the ghost weeping tears of blood crying out from the grave for a son to avenge her--resurrects him to kill the father, the reverse of the situation with the stone dragon being "born with the dead" like the other Mother/Son symbol, the direwolf pups, are.).

And that brings us to Last Hearth and their sigil (giant breaking free of his chains: the green giant, the stone dragon, the prince that was promised, breaking free of his mother's chains--as he's "a puppet dancing on a string," the wight carrying out her bidding, turning against her to slay her--Winter--as well, becoming THE LAST HERO). A hearth is a place where we burn wood to keep warm, of course, so the sun's son takes upon his fiery persona of the deity (becoming, in effect, a burning tree himself as well as a burning sword) to burn the trees (white and black both, symbols of the mother), slay his own mother, and bring back the sun--spring--dawn. As Tywin likes to say of one of our six dragon children, Tyrion: you, who killed your mother to come into the world!

There's so much reiteration of symbols, I could go on forever, but that would be cruel, so I won't. Lol.

Edited April 15, 2019 by TheSeason

[bloodsteel bitterraven]

2 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

the conversation in the dream is symbolic and a synopsis because it's a dream, not a memory. George has said to not take the conversation completely literal.

Once Ned found Lyanna and her child, he knew the child would be regarded as heir. My point is that Ned got to Lyanna first, and that the KG didn't oppose him saying goodbye to a dying Lyanna. They did however wanted to stop him from taking her child to hide him so Robert could sit the throne instead.

Oh.  I see.  That's very interesting.  That's not what we saw on the show of course.  It would have been a great twist though.

[TheSeason]

4 minutes ago, bloodsteel bitterraven said:

By the way, is there a link to any discussions on the importance of the Winter Sun?  I admit I haven't heard any such theories before.

Well... IDK off the top of my head, but... I talk a bit about the Winter Sun (The Winter Sun is Azor Ahai) in my essay series (warning: most people find it too long, apologies).