[Spoilers] E801 Discussion

[Error-504]

1 hour ago, Corvinus said:

I'll remind that showcase wight came at Cersei in broad daylight, in fair weather KL. So, yeah, consistency...

My guess is that is the final scene of episode 2. 

[TheSeason]

29 minutes ago, briantw said:

Left pretty clearly looks like a lion with a trout in its mouth.  Middle appears to be a direwolf being hanged with arrows and at least one dagger in it (possible reference to Jon's death?).  Right is less clear...a white walker holding a severed head?  Maybe a reference to the first scene in the series.  

That's not a White Walker. That's the Flayed Man holding up a severed direwolf head in one hand and a dagger in the other. 

[briantw]

Just now, TheSeason said:

That's not a White Walker. That's the Flayed Man holding up a severed direwolf head in one hand and a dagger in the other. 

Yeah I agree after reading that interpretation of it.  Considering the three images as a whole, the Red Wedding is almost certainly what is being portrayed there.  

[Pixi Penrose]

2 hours ago, Corvinus said:

Who else thought when Sam made that noise in the crypts, that he had brought Bran, too, and accidentally knocked him over

I thought he was csrrying Him down the stairs and betalt dropping him!

[Error-504]

44 minutes ago, of man and wolf said:

bet you Ghost wont care much for Dany. Just like a true northerner.

Or he deserts Jon when he finds out about his true lineage? 

[briantw]

1 minute ago, Error-504 said:

Or he deserts Jon when he finds out about his true lineage? 

He's still half-Stark, same as what he thought he was before.  

Plus, Ghost would likely have known all along. 

[Error-504]

2 minutes ago, briantw said:

He's still half-Stark, same as what he thought he was before.  

Plus, Ghost would likely have known all along. 

It was a joke. 

[Starkblack]

Did anyone figure out what Arya asked Gendry to make for her?

[bloodsteel bitterraven]

1 hour ago, Gemma said:

Regarding the Tarlys what was Dany supposed to do? She offered them the chance to bend the knee and they refused. Tyrion offered an alternative (taking the Black) but Randyll was too proud to accept. She wasn’t even going to execute Dickon but he stepped forward and chose to die with his father. Even if she had burned the father and left the son he would have wanted revenge. It’s not a clear cut situation but I don’t see how it makes her a mad queen. She offered them an out and they didn’t take it. Her father never would have given them a choice.

If they don't respect you, make them fear you.  Dany did what she had to do.

[shawnpmcd]

Minor beef -- I was hoping that L.Mormont and Jorah would have a moment.  And I REALLY want Arya and L>Mormont to have 1 scene together.

[bloodsteel bitterraven]

14 minutes ago, Starkblack said:

Did anyone figure out what Arya asked Gendry to make for her?

It's a weapon with two pointy ends.

[sweetsunray]

1 hour ago, Gemma said:

Regarding the Tarlys what was Dany supposed to do? She offered them the chance to bend the knee and they refused. Tyrion offered an alternative (taking the Black) but Randyll was too proud to accept. She wasn’t even going to execute Dickon but he stepped forward and chose to die with his father. Even if she had burned the father and left the son he would have wanted revenge. It’s not a clear cut situation but I don’t see how it makes her a mad queen. She offered them an out and they didn’t take it. Her father never would have given them a choice.

Well, Dany started out by saying then she hadn't come to put everything in ashes (right after she burned an army and wagons with Drogon), but to give people a choice to follow a better ruler, and then ends with "or die". The last bit was in straight contrast to her initial speech. And her actions made her words about being a better ruler the lie.

Tarly and Dickon may have made the choice to not bend the knee, but they were under the impression they'd be beheaded, not cooked alive in their armor by "dragonfire". Also Randyll was trying to choose a middle way in the situation both Cersei and Dany put them in. Though much of the logic was warped in S7, Randyl's motivation to turn against Olenna Tyrell was because Randyl had sworn allegiance to Cersei as head of House Tarly. Standing with Olenna or recognizing Dany as his queen would mean he broke his vow to the highest authority he had already recognized. Death was the sole way out that Dany offered him out of this vow. Dickon had not made such a vow, as he had not been the head of House Tarly. With Randyl dead, Dickon would become the new head of House Tarly and would be free to switch allegiance to Dany. So, Randyl's plan was to save House Tarly and its honor. Dickon spoiled that by being brave.

And sure, once Dany stipulated "bend the knee or die" she had little choice left, but the situation was therefore of her own making. She shouldn't have made those the sole choices in the first place.

Edited April 15, 2019 by sweetsunray

[Mystical]

I found it really funny how Jon lied about how he bend the knee. He basically shifted all the blame onto Dany that way. He sees the tension in the North, knows how people feel about Dany and thinks it's a great idea to lie about that part which makes it sound as if Dany wasn't willing to help without knee bending.

Gee Jon, great way to diffuse the situation. Maybe you could have told them what actually happened. That Dany agreed to help WITHOUT the condition of servitude/knee bending.

[TheSeason]

45 minutes ago, briantw said:

Yeah I agree after reading that interpretation of it.  Considering the three images as a whole, the Red Wedding is almost certainly what is being portrayed there.  

The astrolabe is a review of the history, as always. In the first seven seasons, it was a review of the backstory (for those who mightn't have read the books) leading up to the show. In the final season, it's a recap of the War for the Iron Throne--now that they're fighting the War for the Dawn (at least alongside it). History in the making, kiddies!  

[Error-504]

24 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Well, Dany started out by saying then she hadn't come to put everything in ashes (right after she burned an army and wagons with Drogon), but to give people a choice to follow a better ruler, and then ends with "or die". The last bit was in straight contrast to her initial speech. And her actions made her words about being a better ruler the lie.

Tarly and Dickon may have made the choice to not bend the knee, but they were under the impression they'd be beheaded, not cooked alive in their armor by "dragonfire". Also Randyll was trying to choose a middle way in the situation both Cersei and Dany put them in. Though much of the logic was warped in S7, Randyl's motivation to turn against Olenna Tyrell was because Randyl had sworn allegiance to Cersei as head of House Tarly. Standing with Olenna or recognizing Dany as his queen would mean he broke his vow to the highest authority he had already recognized. Death was the sole way out that Dany offered him out of this vow. Dickon had not made such a vow, as he had not been the head of House Tarly. With Randyl dead, Dickon would become the new head of House Tarly and would be free to switch allegiance to Dany. So, Randyl's plan was to save House Tarly and its honor. Dickon spoiled that by being brave.

And sure, once Dany stipulated "bend the knee or die" she had little choice left, but the situation was therefore of her own making. She shouldn't have made those the sole choices in the first place.

But for a brief moment, she was considering Tyrion's suggestion of having them "Take the black" Randyll refused, and literally dared Dany to execute him. I agree with your reasons why Randayll did what he did, he wanted to be executed. that leaves us with the manor of the execution as the one thing that could have been handled better. Personally, I am not so sure that matters, dead is dead. However, prior to that point, many of the Tarley/Lannister soldiers were refusing to bend the knee (roughly half). After the execution, they all bent the knee. One could argue many lives were saved as a result. 

[Error-504]

29 minutes ago, Mystical said:

I found it really funny how Jon lied about how he bend the knee. He basically shifted all the blame onto Dany that way. He sees the tension in the North, knows how people feel about Dany and thinks it's a great idea to lie about that part which makes it sound as if Dany wasn't willing to help without knee bending.

Gee Jon, great way to diffuse the situation. Maybe you could have told them what actually happened. That Dany agreed to help WITHOUT the condition of servitude/knee bending.

yeah, that confused me as well. 

[BlackLightning]

I saw and still see nothing wrong with Daenerys' execution of the Tarlys.

Randyll Tarly made a vow to Olenna Tyrell, his liege. He then betrayed his liege for the likes of Cersei Lannister...and he had known Olenna Tyrell for what? 40-50 years? And then he made several racist comments towards Daenerys' men. And then he refused to bend the knee or take the black.

Janos Slynt did less than Randyll Tarly did...yet when Jon executed him, no one blinked an eye.

Dickon Tarly made a dumb decision. There was no need for him to do what he did. In fact, I hate Randyll Tarly even more for allowing his son (his "favorite" son at that) to join him in his execution.

There was absolutely nothing wrong with what Daenerys did. A lot of other people (Tywin, Littlefinger, Lysa,, Cersei, Aerys, etc.) would not have asked.

40 minutes ago, Starkblack said:

Did anyone figure out what Arya asked Gendry to make for her?

A dragonglass spear with a detachable spearhead. The detachable spearhead can be used as a dagger.

[sweetsunray]

4 minutes ago, Error-504 said:

But for a brief moment, she was considering Tyrion's suggestion of having them "Take the black" Randyll refused, and literally dared Dany to execute him. I agree with your reasons why Randayll did what he did, he wanted to be executed. that leaves us with the manor of the execution as the one thing that could have been handled better. Personally, I am not so sure that matters, dead is dead. However, prior to that point, many of the Tarley/Lannister soldiers were refusing to bend the knee (roughly half). After the execution, they all bent the knee. One could argue many lives were saved as a result. 

Well, the manner does differ. Burning someone alive is torturing them to death basically. It's unnecessary painful.

Sure, the rest quickly bent the knee, but not for the reasons she touted or wanted them to... they did it so not to be burned alive by a dragon, not because they believe she's a better queen.

[Error-504]

12 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Well, the manner does differ. Burning someone alive is torturing them to death basically. It's unnecessary painful.

Sure, the rest quickly bent the knee, but not for the reasons she touted or wanted them to... they did it so not to be burned alive by a dragon, not because they believe she's a better queen.

Based on the myth that beheading isn't? have you ever asked someone that was beheaded if it hurts? They looked like they died fairly quicky, but yeah, i am sure there was a good deal of pain involved(the Tarleys), No less than the pain that the people of the Red keep felt when Cersei blew it up with Wildfire. But Randyll Tarley was ok with that. 

I will grant you the latter, but lives were saved none the less. 

Edited April 15, 2019 by Error-504

[sweetsunray]

3 minutes ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

I saw and still see nothing wrong with Daenerys' execution of the Tarlys.

Randyll Tarly made a vow to Olenna Tyrell, his liege. He then betrayed his liege for the likes of Cersei Lannister...and he had known Olenna Tyrell for what? 40-50 years? And then he made several racist comments towards Daenerys' men. And then he refused to bend the knee or take the black.

Janos Slynt did less than Randyll Tarly did...yet when Jon executed him, no one blinked an eye.

Dickon Tarly made a dumb decision. There was no need for him to do what he did. In fact, I hate Randyll Tarly even more for allowing his son (his "favorite" son at that) to join him in his execution.

There was absolutely nothing wrong with what Daenerys did. A lot of other people (Tywin, Littlefinger, Lysa,, Cersei, Aerys, etc.) would not have asked.

Well the show's reasoned that he vowed allegiance to his regional liege and to the monarch on the IT from Joffrey to Cersei. Monarchs trump lieges so to speak, same reasoning that the Freys used to turn against the Tullies.

I'm not saying that actually fits the political system in Westeros - it doesn't. Most houses would stand with their regional liege over a crazy monarch such as Cersei, who has no legal right to the throne in any dynastic sense whatsoever and just blew up the sept of Balor. But there's also somethign to be said about house Tyrell being extinct anyway. Olenna was the sole survivor anyway and too old. No house would stand with a House where the sole person is a barren grandmother who's not really a Tyrell but married into the Tyrells.

Anyhow, once Randyll had indeed vowed to be Cersei's man, he can't back out of it.

Whether Dany did anything wrong depends on what type of monarch Dany wants to be. If she wants to be a monarch like Tywin, Cersei and Aerys, she followed their example to a T. In fact Tywin gave his enemies more chances than Dany did, come to think of it (Joffrey just spoiled many of those). If she wants to be the monarch she proclaimed she wanted to be, then yeah, she burned that wish right into the ground.