[Spoilers] E801 Discussion

[sweetsunray]

5 minutes ago, Error-504 said:

Based on the myth that beheading isn't? have you ever asked someone that was beheaded if it hurts? They looked like they died fairly quicky, but yeah, i am sure there was a good deal of pain involved(the Tarleys), No less than the pain that the people of the Red keep felt when Cersei blew it up with Wildfire. But Randyll Tarley was ok with that. 

I will grant you the latter, but lives were saved none the less. 

Beheading is one of the quickest and least painful ways to die if you only have mideval options for it.

And you misrepresent my point. I did not claim death can be expected to be painless. But I pointed out that there is superfluous pain to being cooked alive in armor by dragonfire. So, no I do not expect beheading to be painless, but a hell of a less painless than death by dragonfire.

I'm not defending Randyl or Cersei here. I am however pointing out that Dany is no better than Cersei when she did that, and that it made her words of what type of ruler she wanted to be absolute bollocks. I despise Cersei, but at least she's not a hypocrite about it.

[BlackLightning]

1 minute ago, sweetsunray said:

Well the show's reasoned that he vowed allegiance to his regional liege and to the monarch on the IT from Joffrey to Cersei. Monarchs trump lieges so to speak, same reasoning that the Freys used to turn against the Tullies.

Yeah because the Freys are such fantastic paragons of loyalty, honor and duty.

2 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

I'm not saying that actually fits the political system in Westeros - it doesn't. Most houses would stand with their regional liege over a crazy monarch such as Cersei, who has no legal right to the throne in any dynastic sense whatsoever and just blew up the sept of Balor. But there's also somethign to be said about house Tyrell being extinct anyway. Olenna was the sole survivor anyway and too old. No house would stand with a House where the sole person is a barren grandmother who's not really a Tyrell but married into the Tyrells.

Anyhow, once Randyll had indeed vowed to be Cersei's man, he can't back out of it.

Whether Dany did anything wrong depends on what type of monarch Dany wants to be. If she wants to be a monarch like Tywin, Cersei and Aerys, she followed their example to a T. In fact Tywin gave his enemies more chances than Dany did, come to think of it (Joffrey just spoiled many of those). If she wants to be the monarch she proclaimed she wanted to be, then yeah, she burned that wish right into the ground.

Why not? If he back out of vowing to be Olenna's man, why can't he just back out of being Cersei's?

If a man can turn his back on a widowed bereaved old woman (whose family had all been killed in awfully convenient accident) that he has personally known for decades, then that volumes have been spoken on the character of that man.

More than that, at the time Randyll Tarly made his decision, he -- as a Tyrell bannerman -- was still on the winning side.

In fact, if Tarly had done the right thing and stood strong, then the war would've gone entirely different.

You're being silly. Dany gave the Tarlys multiple chances to bend the knee. The fact that she didn't have them killed or left to rot in a dungeon says a lot about her character. Daddy Tarly made it worse by daring her to execute him and by publicly disparaging and denigrating her soldiers to her face. At this point, she has no choice but to execute him..

Why do you care so much about the Tarlys? Randyll Tarly is a horrible person and Dickon Tarly basically committed suicide.

Jon, Ned and Robb have all executed people who did less than what Randyll Tarly did.

[Danelle]

55 minutes ago, Mystical said:

 

Gee Jon, great way to diffuse the situation. Maybe you could have told them what actually happened. That Dany agreed to help WITHOUT the condition of servitude/knee bending.

He is a Targaryen after all, just like Bloodraven. 

Seriously, I think that Jon intended to let everyone know that Dany is Queen and without her they are doomed. He probably thought that he was helping her cement her rule over the North.

22 minutes ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

I saw and still see nothing wrong with Daenerys' execution of the Tarlys.

Randyll Tarly made a vow to Olenna Tyrell, his liege. He then betrayed his liege for the likes of Cersei Lannister...and he had known Olenna Tyrell for what? 40-50 years? And then he made several racist comments towards Daenerys' men. And then he refused to bend the knee or take the black.

Janos Slynt did less than Randyll Tarly did...yet when Jon executed him, no one blinked an eye.

Dickon Tarly made a dumb decision. There was no need for him to do what he did. In fact, I hate Randyll Tarly even more for allowing his son (his "favorite" son at that) to join him in his execution.

There was absolutely nothing wrong with what Daenerys did. A lot of other people (Tywin, Littlefinger, Lysa,, Cersei, Aerys, etc.) would not have asked.

A dragonglass spear with a detachable spearhead. The detachable spearhead can be used as a dagger.

Lysa and Aerys are not really good examples because they both ruled through fear and irrational decisions.

I don't recall an instance when LF had official power and executed someone, but perhaps my memory fails me.

Cersei and Tywin have ordered deaths of people who they deemed to be dangerous to their reign but they were already established and legitimate rulers and they had supporters.

Mind you, I am not defending their actions but I don't think that the point is whether Dany was right to burn the Tarlys or not.

All it matters is how her action will be perceived and currently Dany has only one fan in Westeros: Jon.

The rest of her supporters are dothraki and essosi strangers. There is also Tyrion but a kinslayer and a kingslayer is not really a good example of an ally. Until now Dany was used to the idea of turning her dragons against her enemies and having the crowds surround her and yelling Mysha. So far, the nobles that Dany has dealt with were people with the sensitivities of the Great Masters of Meereen,  but Blackwater is not the Walk of Punishment and Randyll was not Kraznys.

 When Dany had her dragons attack the slavers in Essos, they were the ones in position of advantage. They had power, wealth, influence and they used it in order to take advantage of everyone else.

When she confronted Randyll Tarly, the man was defeated and had nothing. On the other hand, she was victorious, she had an army and her dragons. Tyrion's proposal was sensible and even Randyll seemed to agree yet Dany chose to give them both to her dragons. Dickon's life might have been spared at least. 

Think of how Joffrey's decision affected his reign. He chose to have Ned Stark executed and had every reason to do so. Ned openly defied Joffrey and told him that he had no claim to the throne. Not only that but he intended to arrest him. 

Had Joffrey shown mercy and spared Ned, the situation with the Starks would have been somewhat less difficult, not to mention that the Starks held Jaime hostage.

Mercy is not always synonym to weakness. Sometimes it could be a sign of diplomatic attitude. 

 

[BlackLightning]

10 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Beheading is one of the quickest and least painful ways to die if you only have mideval options for it.

And you misrepresent my point. I did not claim death can be expected to be painless. But I pointed out that there is superfluous pain to being cooked alive in armor by dragonfire. So, no I do not expect beheading to be painless, but a hell of a less painless than death by dragonfire.

I'm not defending Randyl or Cersei here. I am however pointing out that Dany is no better than Cersei when she did that, and that it made her words of what type of ruler she wanted to be absolute bollocks. I despise Cersei, but at least she's not a hypocrite about it.

Okay now I KNOW you don't know what you're talking about.

Cersei is the biggest hypocrite on the entire gotdayum show.

Is Aegon the Conquerer mad even though he set Harrenhal on fire with the entire Hoare family and their army inside?

Littlefinger was begging for his life when his throat was opened and he bled out on the floor? Are the Starks worst than Cersei?

 

Why do you care so much about the Tarlys? They were problematic and they refused to change. What was she supposed to do? It's the same situation as Jon's execution of Janos Slynt.

[Mystical]

41 minutes ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

Randyll Tarly made a vow to Olenna Tyrell, his liege. He then betrayed his liege for the likes of Cersei Lannister...and he had known Olenna Tyrell for what? 40-50 years? And then he made several racist comments towards Daenerys' men. And then he refused to bend the knee or take the black.

Oleanna was a KINGSLAYER and child murderer. The same goes for Ellaria Sand. The Ironborne under Theon and Yara invaded the North and you know what they are famous for doing. Should Dany be judged by the company and allies she keeps? But you have an issue with Tarly choosing the crown over someone who isn't even the rightful ruler of the Reach or even Highgarden but not with Dany associating herself with the likes of these people?

For the record, stop comparing 'crimes'. That's not how it works. People actions have to be judged on their own merit. It's a weak argument when you basically defend your point by saying 'well A did this and it was so much worse so it's ok what B did.'

[BlackLightning]

1 minute ago, Danelle said:

When she confronted Randyll Tarly, the man was defeated and had nothing. On the other hand, she was victorious, she had an army and her dragons. Tyrion's proposal was sensible and even Randyll seemed to agree yet Dany chose to give them both to her dragons. Dickon's life might have been spared at least. 

Think of how Joffrey's decision affected his reign. He chose to have Ned Stark executed and had every reason to do so. Ned openly defied Joffrey and told him that he had no claim to the throne. Not only that but he intended to arrest him. 

Had Joffrey shown mercy and spared Ned, the situation with the Starks would have been somewhat less difficult, not to mention that the Starks held Jaime hostage.

Mercy is not always synonym to weakness. Sometimes it could be a sign of diplomatic attitude. 

Randyll Tarly did not agree. He refused to take the black.

Rewatch the episode. He went on a little racist tirade before he was executed.

Dickon's life should have been spared yes. But if he insisted on dying (which he did), well....

Joffrey's situation was completely different. Joffrey had suffered a crushing defeat, lost a prized commander and was surrounded by enemies: Robb's Tully-Stark (and, as far as they were concerned, Arryn) coalition to the north and the northwest, Renly and the Tyrells from the southwest, Stannis from the east. To be honest, King Aerys was in a better position than what Joffrey was in and Aerys had half of the Seven Kingdoms rebel against him.

Showing mercy was not only noble but it was also was in his best interest that he deal with Ned Stark gently. Joffrey was so much of an idiot that he was incapable of selfishly acting in his own best interest.

Apples and oranges.

[GeorgeIAF]

I don't blame Dany for burning the Tyrells, this is war, people die in it. It's not like he betrayed anyone, she even offered to spare them but they didn't want any of that and chose to die. It was their choice.

I think Sam has his judgement clouded by the sudden news of his family's death, he'll come around.

 

 

[BlackLightning]

Just now, Mystical said:

Oleanna was a KINGSLAYER and child murderer. The same goes for Ellaria Sand. The Ironborne under Theon and Yara invaded the North and you know what they are famous for doing. Should Dany be judged by the company and allies she keeps? But you have an issue with Tarly choosing the crown over someone who isn't even the rightful ruler of the Reach or even Highgarden but not with Dany associating herself with the likes of these people?

For the record, stop comparing 'crimes'. That's not how it works. People actions have to be judged on their own merit. It's a weak argument when you basically defend your point by saying 'well A did this and it was so much worse so it's ok what B did.'

Fine.

Let's judge the action on its own merits.

There is nothing wrong with executing traitors after giving them a chance to make amends and work for you. And yes they were traitors because they swore oaths to Daenerys and Olenna Tyrell first.

Not only were they traitors, they were also insolent, foolish and disrespectful.

They were executed because they preferred to be executed. That's all there is to it.

[sweetsunray]

3 minutes ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

Yeah because the Freys are such fantastic paragons of loyalty, honor and duty.

Hate the Freys. But it is the legal defense that the Freys use: loyal to my regional liege or loyal to my monarch... Monarch trumps liege.

3 minutes ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

Why not? If he back out of vowing to be Olenna's man, why can't he just back out of being Cersei's?

Because Olenna isn't the monarch of Westeros. Her legal power is lower than that of Cersei

3 minutes ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

If a man can turn his back on a widowed bereaved old woman (whose family had all been killed in awfully convenient accident) that he has personally known for decades, then that volumes have been spoken on the character of that man.

So, should we condone the torturous murder of questionable morals because he refuses to bend the knee as POW? It sure doesn't make Dany righteous.

3 minutes ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

More than that, at the time Randyll Tarly made his decision, he -- as a Tyrell bannerman -- was still on the winning side.

In fact, if Tarly had done the right thing and stood strong, then the war would've gone entirely different.

Would it? What was Dany's tactic? She had certain regions accept her, but intended to make no move whatsoever against KL, as if it were states electing her to be president, and that the vote was enough, against an enemy who had proven she has no problems in blowing up the capital's sept and almost the complete house in it. How was Tarly secure that Dany would win, especially after Euron took out Dorne. Olenna isn't a military leader. For Tarly there's one mad queen on the IT who still has a considerable army somehow (just accepting the show facts here, though I'm the first to say that the Lannister army shouldn't be as large anymore), Dorne is out, the RL are out. And the North and the Vale is with a third king. All that Dany truly posessed was Dragonstone, nothing else. Then she comes with her Dothraki and dragons to lay them to waste, which is impressive, but does not seem to plan to occupy the territory, nor is she in a position to do so. 

3 minutes ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

You're being silly. Dany gave the Tarlys multiple chances to bend the knee. The fact that she didn't have them killed or left to rot in a dungeon says a lot about her character. Daddy Tarly made it worse by daring her to execute him and by publicly disparaging and denigrating her soldiers to her face. At this point, she has no choice but to execute him..

I'm not being silly. There aren't many players of the GoT who demand their POW to bend the knee as long as the war isn't won yet. Robb didn't. Not even Tywin did that (though he used lesser men to torture his POW). The moment that Dany made it a bend the knee to me here right now to her POW, she made the mistake of creating a situation where Tarly could dare her to kill him. Putting him in a dungeon was exactly what she should have done, not even giving him the choice. 

3 minutes ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

Why do you care so much about the Tarlys? Randyll Tarly is a horrible person and Dickon Tarly basically committed suicide.

Jon, Ned and Robb have all executed people who did less than what Randyll Tarly did.

I don't care one jot about the Tarlys. I care about someone proclaiming themselves as the leader who is the best choice because she will make a better future, and then pretty much does what Joffrey would do.

Jon executed people who were part of his command and mutineered against his command.

Ned executed a deserter.

Robb executed a man who swore allegiance to him and murdered POW in their jail cell for crimes they didn't commit.

 

[omegaxx]

7 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Hate the Freys. But it is the legal defense that the Freys use: loyal to my regional liege or loyal to my monarch... Monarch trumps liege.

Because Olenna isn't the monarch of Westeros. Her legal power is lower than that of Cersei

So, should we condone the torturous murder of questionable morals because he refuses to bend the knee as POW? It sure doesn't make Dany righteous.

Would it? What was Dany's tactic? She had certain regions accept her, but intended to make no move whatsoever against KL, as if it were states electing her to be president, and that the vote was enough, against an enemy who had proven she has no problems in blowing up the capital's sept and almost the complete house in it. How was Tarly secure that Dany would win, especially after Euron took out Dorne. Olenna isn't a military leader. For Tarly there's one mad queen on the IT who still has a considerable army somehow (just accepting the show facts here, though I'm the first to say that the Lannister army shouldn't be as large anymore), Dorne is out, the RL are out. And the North and the Vale is with a third king. All that Dany truly posessed was Dragonstone, nothing else. Then she comes with her Dothraki and dragons to lay them to waste, which is impressive, but does not seem to plan to occupy the territory, nor is she in a position to do so. 

I'm not being silly. There aren't many players of the GoT who demand their POW to bend the knee as long as the war isn't won yet. Robb didn't. Not even Tywin did that (though he used lesser men to torture his POW). The moment that Dany made it a bend the knee to me here right now to her POW, she made the mistake of creating a situation where Tarly could dare her to kill him. Putting him in a dungeon was exactly what she should have done, not even giving him the choice. 

I don't care one jot about the Tarlys. I care about someone proclaiming themselves as the leader who is the best choice because she will make a better future, and then pretty much does what Joffrey would do.

Jon executed people who were part of his command and mutineered against his command.

Ned executed a deserter.

Robb executed a man who swore allegiance to him and murdered POW in their jail cell for crimes they didn't commit.

 

Agree with you 100%, although your arguments (based on the institutional norms and historic precedents of Westeros) may be lost on people who just think "Tarlys bad people -> executing Tarlys good".

Book Randyll Tarly is also quite a character (Tywin-lite, basically), so it's nigh impossible to imagine him coming to such an end without repercussions for the executioner.

[sweetsunray]

19 minutes ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

Okay now I KNOW you don't know what you're talking about.

Cersei is the biggest hypocrite on the entire gotdayum show.

Is Aegon the Conquerer mad even though he set Harrenhal on fire with the entire Hoare family and their army inside?

Littlefinger was begging for his life when his throat was opened and he bled out on the floor? Are the Starks worst than Cersei?

I know perfectly well what I'm talking about.

Cersei is evil. Cersei is a liar. But she's not a hypocrite. She never ever claimed she would be some saviour.

I'm not a fan of Aegon's use of WMD and I think he was devious, but the Hoare family inside HH were not his POW.

LF was being tried for crimes. He was not a POW.

19 minutes ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

 

Why do you care so much about the Tarlys? They were problematic and they refused to change. What was she supposed to do? It's the same situation as Jon's execution of Janos Slynt.

As I said before: I don't care one jot about the Tarlys.

I already said what Dany was supposed to do: she should not have asked her POW who already surrendered to her, to also bend the knee, after one battle, when she did not have even have KL and had no intention to occupy the Reach and protect it from retaliation by Cersei.

No, it's not the same situation as Jon's execution of Slynt. Tarly wasn't one of Dany's soldiers, and thus not hers to command. Jon was Slynt's superior and Slynt refused to comply the order he was given for no sound reason. If this had been a situation where it was a commander of Unsullied or the Dothraki who refused to do what she commanded to do (when the order was not immoral), then we'd have a comparable situation. But that's not the case here.

Seems, you don't really understand what you're talking about.

[BlackLightning]

Just now, sweetsunray said:

Hate the Freys. But it is the legal defense that the Freys use: loyal to my regional liege or loyal to my monarch... Monarch trumps liege.

Of course! You're exactly right! It's not like the Freys didn't break faith with the Baratheon king to swear allegiance to the Stark king or anything...only to ditch the Stark king for the Baratheon king all over again just because the Stark king didn't do what the Freys wanted him to do.

Who would do such a thing?!

3 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

So, should we condone the torturous murder of questionable morals because he refuses to bend the knee as POW? It sure doesn't make Dany righteous.

Would it? What was Dany's tactic? She had certain regions accept her, but intended to make no move whatsoever against KL, as if it were states electing her to be president, and that the vote was enough, against an enemy who had proven she has no problems in blowing up the capital's sept and almost the complete house in it. How was Tarly secure that Dany would win, especially after Euron took out Dorne. Olenna isn't a military leader. For Tarly there's one mad queen on the IT who still has a considerable army somehow (just accepting the show facts here, though I'm the first to say that the Lannister army shouldn't be as large anymore), Dorne is out, the RL are out. And the North and the Vale is with a third king. All that Dany truly posessed was Dragonstone, nothing else. Then she comes with her Dothraki and dragons to lay them to waste, which is impressive, but does not seem to plan to occupy the territory, nor is she in a position to do so. 

I'm not being silly. There aren't many players of the GoT who demand their POW to bend the knee as long as the war isn't won yet. Robb didn't. Not even Tywin did that (though he used lesser men to torture his POW). The moment that Dany made it a bend the knee to me here right now to her POW, she made the mistake of creating a situation where Tarly could dare her to kill him. Putting him in a dungeon was exactly what she should have done, not even giving him the choice. 

I don't care one jot about the Tarlys. I care about someone proclaiming themselves as the leader who is the best choice because she will make a better future, and then pretty much does what Joffrey would do.

Jon executed people who were part of his command and mutineered against his command.

Ned executed a deserter.

Robb executed a man who swore allegiance to him and murdered POW in their jail cell for crimes they didn't commit.

 

You forgot about Janos Slynt. Someone who was specifically told to do something (twice!) by his superior, publicly refused to do it in the most disrespectful way possible and then challenged said superior to do something about it.

In any case, the common denominator between Jon executing men, Ned executing men and Robb executing men is that the men that they executed betrayed their station, broke the law and acted out of turn.

Aegon the Conqueror made his enemies bend the knee even though his war wasn't won yet. And how many kings and lords did he kill? How many was he prepared to kill?

[MagicPen]

Loved all the little reunions, i wish they had more time, but oh well.

The only thing i didn't really like was the northern drama...like how could that even happen? I understand that the northerners are stubborn, but surely no one in that situation would mind dragons coming to their aid?

It just seems so out of place.

 

[sweetsunray]

1 minute ago, omegaxx said:

Agree with you 100%, although your arguments (based on the institutional norms and historic precedents of Westeros) may be lost on people who just think "Tarlys bad people -> executing Tarlys good".

Book Randyll Tarly is also quite a character (Tywin-lite, basically), so it's nigh impossible to imagine him coming to such an end without repercussions for the executioner.

Well, I have to correct myself on one claim. Tywin did ask POW to bend the knee... Stannis' men that were taken prisoner after the Battle of the Blackwater. But at least that was a situation where there seemed no other choice. And some men did choose death over bending the knee.

So, basically, Dany is doing what Tywin did, but without having the capital. So much for her breaking the wheel.

[sweetsunray]

 

4 minutes ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

Of course! You're exactly right! It's not like the Freys didn't break faith with the Baratheon king to swear allegiance to the Stark king or anything...only to ditch the Stark king for the Baratheon king all over again just because the Stark king didn't do what the Freys wanted him to do.

Walder Frey mentioned these concerns to Robb and Catelyn when they came to the twins to ask him to join them. He agreed on terms and allowed himself to be annexed by Robb. Robb broke those terms, however, and the Freys pulled out of the alliance on account of that.

Now, I would have respected the Freys more if they had openly declared for Joffrey, instead of pretending to be allies again, only to murder all their wedding guests, but Robb broke faith with them first. No matter how much I want as many Freys dead, I cannot fault them for pulling out of the alliance with Robb, once he married someone else than he promised he would.

4 minutes ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

You forgot about Janos Slynt. Someone who was specifically told to do something (twice!) by his superior, publicly refused to do it in the most disrespectful way possible and then challenged said superior to do something about it. 

In any case, the common denominator between Jon executing men, Ned executing men and Robb executing men is that the men that they executed betrayed their station, broke the law and acted out of turn.

I did not forget about Janos Slynt. I wrote " Jon executed people who were part of his command and mutineered against his command." Refusing his superior's command is something I heap with mutiny.

4 minutes ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

Aegon the Conqueror made his enemies bend the knee even though his war wasn't won yet. And how many kings and lords did he kill? How many was he prepared to kill?

I don't like Aegon the Conquerer. I think he was a self-entitled greedy bully.

IIRC Dany didn't want to be like Aegon the Conquerer, but break the wheel. Her actions on the battlefield after taking surviving enemies POW and ask them to bend the knee or die, do not make her someone who breaks the wheel, but simply perpetuating the war crimes of bullies such as Aegon the Conquerer and Tywin Lannister.

 

 

[Joffrey's Wine]

For me, the reason for killing off the Tarly's was to pave the way for Sam to inherit Horn Hill in the end. Could that be as simple as it is?

This to me would complete Sam's arc as his storyline starts out with him having been the rightful heir all along, but in a cruel manner was forced to give this up. We as viewers/readers sympathize with Sam in this, making him a 'good guy' in our minds, and that ending would be the justice he deserves. In regards to him still being a member of the Night's Watch who has sworn vows, I don't think there's going to be a Night's Watch at the end of all this, which would free him up to head home, marry Gilly, and inherit Horn Hill. I mean why not, for starters he already has his family sword, and surely there is a greater significance to that which hasn't been touched on yet.

[Ser Gareth]

1 hour ago, GeorgeIAF said:

I don't blame Dany for burning the Tyrells, this is war, people die in it. It's not like he betrayed anyone, she even offered to spare them but they didn't want any of that and chose to die. It was their choice.

I think Sam has his judgement clouded by the sudden news of his family's death, he'll come around.

 

 

100% the correct call on her part, especially once he rejected the notion of taking the Black.  You can't make a public threat and then back down on it if you want to retain credibility.  It's why Jon had no choice but to follow through with the execution of Slynt even when Slynt started begging and said he'd follow orders.

The problem most people seem to have is that she burned them.  If it had been Eddard, Sansa, Jon, Jaime etc. in charge of that situation and they beheaded or hanged them, then the "outrage" wouldn't be there at all.

[Ser Gareth]

54 minutes ago, MagicPen said:

Loved all the little reunions, i wish they had more time, but oh well.

The only thing i didn't really like was the northern drama...like how could that even happen? I understand that the northerners are stubborn, but surely no one in that situation would mind dragons coming to their aid?

It just seems so out of place.

 

We have a preconceived notion of what Northerners are like based on us following the Starks.  The thing is, the Starks are not representative of the North and this "batch" of Starks aren't really representative of what we know about the Starks.  They are pretty much the product of Eddard, who seems most Un-Northman like compared to the other Houses and his older brother from what we're learning in the books.

Dany could have diffused much of the tension early on though.  She chose to remain silent when she should have spoken up and focused purely on the threat of the WW and how they needed to be stopped and the only way to achieve that is for mankind to face the enemy together.  She was being way too respectful to Jon and didn't want undermine him.

[MagicPen]

9 minutes ago, Ser Gareth said:

We have a preconceived notion of what Northerners are like based on us following the Starks.  The thing is, the Starks are not representative of the North and this "batch" of Starks aren't really representative of what we know about the Starks.  They are pretty much the product of Eddard, who seems most Un-Northman like compared to the other Houses and his older brother from what we're learning in the books.

Dany could have diffused much of the tension early on though.  She chose to remain silent when she should have spoken up and focused purely on the threat of the WW and how they needed to be stopped and the only way to achieve that is for mankind to face the enemy together.  She was being way too respectful to Jon and didn't want undermine him.

I know that, but why does that matter? It was pretty much established last season that everybody understood they are facing extinction. 

Suddenly everybody seems to care about the political situation.

 

[Ser Gareth]

Just now, MagicPen said:

I know that, but why does that matter? It was pretty much established last season that everybody understood they are facing extinction. 

Suddenly everybody seems to care about the political situation.

 

That's always been the theme of the books / show.  A complete unwillingness to look the obvious in the face and fall back on human conflicts that mean very little.