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[Spoilers] E801 Discussion


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1 minute ago, Error-504 said:

It deserves death. Tortuous is a term your applying to the manor in which Randyll was executed, In my mind, all death is tortuous to an extent, You just seem hell bent on drawing a line in the sand in which manor is too tortuous. I reject that line. 

I personally reject execution and find it barbaric, but I do recognize that it's a country's prerogative to perform it or not. And next we can see how people are being executed. The manner in which it happens says a lot about that person on the barbaric scale.

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1 minute ago, Lord Varys said:

Is Aegon the Conqueror ever presented as savage or barbarian for torching Harrenhal?

I don't recall any such talk in either books or show.

And nobody in the show - especially not Sam - complained about the manner of the death of the Tarlys, no?

 

Not that I recall. After he torched Harrenhal and killed Harren and his sons, pretty much all the riverlords, except those who plead loyalty to Argilac, gave Aegon an oath of fealty, which means they bent the knee to Aegon, essentially.

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2 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

That's not breaking the wheel though, that is being a benevolent absolute ruler.  That is keeping the wheel with Dany on top,unless she intends to execute all the nobles throughout Westeros so there can never be anyone to challenge her rule, in which case the wheel would be fairly well broken.

Nothing she has said or done would suggest that she wants to or would be anything but an absolute ruler. The major goal of her life has been to return to Westeros and reclaim the throne.

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10 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

He lost almost all of his army after he burned his daughter alive, didn't he?

 

 

Yes, AFTER HE DID IT TO HIS OWN DAUGHTER. Not because they thought burning wasnt a clean death, he lost majority of his army for the fact that he did it to his daughter. Not because he was doing it period, but because he did it to his daughter. I think that was always quite clear.

Edited by RhaegoTheUnborn
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7 minutes ago, Error-504 said:

Well, no, that's your definition of breaking the wheel. Doesn't make it Dany's definition. In dany's mind she can still be a queen in a feudal society, as long as she is a good just queen, and looks out for the little people. Your saying because Dany doesn't meet your definitions of breaking the wheel, she is a hypocrite. That's just poor logic. 

As long as she keeps the feudal system, she is only one of the spokes of the wheel on top of it. That was what Tyrion pointed out to her when she came up with that "term". That's when she stated she was going to break the wheel. And she cannot break the wheel without dong away with the feudal society and make it an empire as several kings did in England, France and Spain as Machiavelli proposed.

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22 minutes ago, Ser Gareth said:

Dany doesn't have a prison and Robert had being male and growing up in Westeros all his life in his favour.  It should also be noted that the decision to allow Jaime Lannister and Balon Greyjoy to keep their heads has retrospectively turned out to be two disasterous decisions!

I seem to remember Davos and Gendry being stuck in a cell at Dragonstone. So, Dany does have a prison.

Allowing Jaime to keep his head wasn't necessarily disastrous, but freeing him was.

As for Balon Greyjoy. He stayed low and didn't do a thing, not until Robert was dead, Robb had gone South and sent Theon to Pyke.

Edited by sweetsunray
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8 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

Cersei and the Tarlys have both in the show spoken about her like she is a barbarian, with her savage Dothraki and her other foreigners.  

But they are all traitors and usurpers and rebels. Who gives anything about their lies? The Tarlys betrayed their liege lords - and their rightful queen who Olenna Tyrell had bent the knee the season before that. They do know that Cersei blew up the Great Sept - and they most definitely know that she has no claim to the throne, right?

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2 hours ago, SeanF said:

Burning them in front of an army was a way of showing off, and frightening the survivors of that army into fighting for her.

The fact that Varys and Tyrion are perturbed by it suggests that in-universe, it's not considered the correct way of treating prisoners of rank.

Did you have a problem when Brienne killed Stannis?

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9 minutes ago, RhaegoTheUnborn said:

Not that I recall. After he torched Harrenhal and killed Harren and his sons, pretty much all the riverlords, except those who plead loyalty to Argilac, gave Aegon an oath of fealty, which means they bent the knee to Aegon, essentially.

Exactly. Executing traitors and men who publicly reject a good offer that is made by a superior enemy is something that's very much okay in this framework.

The way those morons paint Dany here makes no sense in the context of this world. A leader in that world cannot allow enemies to throw a pardon and good offer in their face. He or she would lose face and encourage others to do the same.

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3 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

I seem to remember Davos and Gendry being stuck in a cell at Dragonstone. So, Dany does have a prison.

Allowing Jaime to keep his head wasn't necessarily disastrous, but freeing him was.

As for Balon Greyjoy. He stayed low and didn't do a thing, not until Robert was dead, Robb had gone South and sent Theon to Pyke.

Sorry, let me clarify.  Dany doesn't have a prison where she is passing sentence on the Tarlys.  So unless she wants to frog march prisoners all the way back to Dragonstone (bad idea) then it's let them go or execute them.

Robert's decision to let both live had huge impacts later down the line.  For a start Robert was cuckolded by his wife (who wouldn't have even been his wife had he executed Jaime), Bran would be able to walk etc. and so forth.

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26 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

Cersei and the Tarlys have both in the show spoken about her like she is a barbarian, with her savage Dothraki and her other foreigners.  

 

 

Thats Cersei and the Tarlys. Its clear why they refer to Daenerys as being barbaric, and thats because of her house name, and Daenaerys actually becoming a threat. Cersei & The Tarlys aren't good examples of Dany being barbaric, and thats all you hear it from. And Cersei can't say a damn thing. She burned innocents alive, along with her enemies of the faith and Margaery Tyrell, in the Great Sept atop Aegons hill, using wildfire, if you think Daenaerys is barbaric based off the words of her enemies like Cersei, then what does that make Cersei? Surely she's a lot more barbaric than Daenaerys has yet to show.

Edited by RhaegoTheUnborn
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32 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

That's not breaking the wheel though, that is being a benevolent absolute ruler.  That is keeping the wheel with Dany on top,unless she intends to execute all the nobles throughout Westeros so there can never be anyone to challenge her rule, in which case the wheel would be fairly well broken.

here is the thing, it is not up to you to decide what Dany's interpretation of "breaking the wheel" is. Until you know exactly how she defines that, you can't call her a hypocrite. Lannister, Stark, Tully, Baretheon, etc. All spokes on the wheel. As the wheel turns each spoke has its time on top. It represents chaos, as the leaders are constantly changing due to regional bickering and petty wars. Break the wheel, it no longer turns. Stability ensues. One leader, no petty wars amongst themselves. This is what Dany means (IMO) by breaking the wheel. 

but others want to try to impose what they think "breaking the wheel" should mean, and then call Dany a hypocrite. It doesn't work that way. 

Now you can argue if you think her version of "breaking the wheel" is just more of the same, but that is a different argument than what is being put forth. 

Edited by Error-504
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23 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

I personally reject execution and find it barbaric, but I do recognize that it's a country's prerogative to perform it or not. And next we can see how people are being executed. The manner in which it happens says a lot about that person on the barbaric scale.

did you take issue with House Stark Allying with House Bolton? What was house boltons form of execution again? 

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4 minutes ago, Error-504 said:

here is the thing, it is not up to you to decide what Dany's interpretation of "breaking the wheel" is. Until you know exactly how she defines that, you can't call her a hypocrite. Lannister, Stark, Tully, Baretheon, etc. All spokes on the wheel. As the wheel turns each spoke has its time on top. It represents chaos, as the leaders are constantly changing due to regional bickering and petty wars. Break the wheel, it no longer turns. Stability ensues. One leader, no petty wars amongst themselves. This is what Dany means (IMO) by breaking the wheel. 

but others what to try to impose what they think "breaking the wheel" should mean, and then call Dany a hypocrite. It doesn't work that way. 

Now you can argue if you think her version of "breaking the wheel" is just more of he same, but that is a different argument than what is being put forth. 

I can derive its meaning based on the various times she used it. One leader and breaking the power of the great houses: that is the enlightened despot model, not feudal society. A feudal society does NOT have one ruler who can ignore his lords. It's not imposing what I think it should mean, it's how feudal society and enlightened despotism is defined by historians.

And yet, it does make Dany a hypocrite, since her actions and what she's after do not make her more "just" than anyone else before.

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21 minutes ago, Error-504 said:

did you take issue with House Stark Allying with House Bolton? What was house boltons form of execution again? 

 Roose Bolton does not seem to apply this type of execution at Harrenhal, though people are indeed executed and lose their feet. At the time House Bolton joined their liege House Stark, the skinning of people was a historical practice, that is, until Ramsay gains power and starts doing it.

I fail to see what this line of inquiry would produce with regards the discussion we have about Dany burning the Tarlies is bad PR for her if she wants to win houses over to believe in her as being a "just" ruler.

If it is to question what I think of Roose and Ramsay Bolton? Roose is smarter than Ramsay in not doing horrible stuff openly, but both are despicable and barbaric. But nobody of the current living Starks knows this about House Bolton until they come into power. So?

Edited by sweetsunray
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Whew, I haven't posted here since 2017, but everything seems to be the way I left it :P

Anyway, quite a slow episode. I did think most of the reunions were disappointing (mostly wanting more happiness from Arya), but Jaime's face when he saw Bran... Hoo boy. I was a little less disappointed in the Arya/Gendry scene when I watched one of those episodes of Game Revealed that they put on YouTube and Maisie literally said "the man she loved" - past tense. That was... revealing... :) One of the D's also brings up the dragon riding scene and outright states that only Targs can ride dragons so... I guess Dany isn't aware. It makes sense since she didn't have the greatest teacher and probably assumes her children won't roast someone she cares about, but that sure was a gamble on her part.

As for Sansa being the smartest, well, I'm not going to go and say that she's been pulling very many feats of genius on us, but she did successfully navigate King's Landing (successfully here meaning that she didn't get herself killed) with about zero allies and zero experience. And it seems that she's the stand-in for the viewer too, her "bitching" literally just being her pointing out all of the obvious flaws and issues in their situation. She gives Jon a hard time for bending the knee because she sees how it's affecting the political situation, and she realizes that it's not just for the good of the realm that he did it. The first part of solving a problem is understanding it, and that takes smarts. They sure can stop mentioning it though. Gonna cross my fingers and hope she's the one that finally brokers the marriage between Jon and Dany :lol: 

Speaking of those two... Argh, that romance. It's just so... ugh. No chemistry. And I also don't believe Dany half the time she smiles. It's like she's trying to be this benevolent-looking queen but she doesn't know how to. That said, I'm convinced Emilia is playing her as if Dany believes showing any emotion like grief or regret would mean she's weak, and as others have already pointed out, she really hates that.

I was a bit put off at first by the fact that Sam's lips started quivering when he found out about his father, but I can see how he'd have some complicated feelings about that - he does have a bleeding heart after all. The news about Dickon - completely understandable.

Very relieved at seeing Theon coming for Yara; as soon as I saw the arrows I knew :wub: Euron and Cersei... Maybe it's just getting a bit too chilly in King's Landing.

I started a rewatch a bit late and didn't even finish season 2, but from all the details I didn't remember going into the episode (Beric is still alive? Cersei is supposedly pregnant?) I think I'll have to rewatch season 7 at least.

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20 hours ago, King of the Wall said:

I enjoyed the fact that Randyll's and Dickon's death had impact on the story. Making Dany be the one to tell Sam was a nice touch.

She didn’t plan to tell Sam. She sought Sam out to thank him for saving Jorahs life. It’s only after he revealed his family name that she realised she burned his father and brother and then was forced to awkwardly confess her actions. 

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48 minutes ago, Error-504 said:

here is the thing, it is not up to you to decide what Dany's interpretation of "breaking the wheel" is. Until you know exactly how she defines that, you can't call her a hypocrite. Lannister, Stark, Tully, Baretheon, etc. All spokes on the wheel. As the wheel turns each spoke has its time on top. It represents chaos, as the leaders are constantly changing due to regional bickering and petty wars. Break the wheel, it no longer turns. Stability ensues. One leader, no petty wars amongst themselves. This is what Dany means (IMO) by breaking the wheel. 

but others want to try to impose what they think "breaking the wheel" should mean, and then call Dany a hypocrite. It doesn't work that way. 

Now you can argue if you think her version of "breaking the wheel" is just more of the same, but that is a different argument than what is being put forth. 

I'm the audience, so yes, it is totally up to me how I interpret the story.  I have already interpreted that the Breaker of Chains has bad judgment and is a poor ruler, in both mediums.  So I can and do call her a hypocrite among other negative things, although it looks like she's going to be the one who comes out on top in the end, alive, with her titles and Jon's baby...

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1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

But they are all traitors and usurpers and rebels. Who gives anything about their lies? The Tarlys betrayed their liege lords - and their rightful queen who Olenna Tyrell had bent the knee the season before that. They do know that Cersei blew up the Great Sept - and they most definitely know that she has no claim to the throne, right?

You asked for an example of people speaking about her like she's a barbarian invader and I gave them to you.  All you had to do was look at the looks on the faces of the Northerners to see that they, too, think she's a foreigner bringing with her a horde of foreign invaders. 

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