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[Spoilers] E801 Discussion


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6 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

.

Indeed, Dany did not attack King's Landing with her dragons. She intended to starve King's Landing, like Renly (see she did try a tactic that others tried before), by having the Crownlands cut off from food supply from the Reach or Dorne or ship trade. That plan was made impossible once Yara's fleet was gone, the snakes were dead and House Tyrell finally exctinct. Worse, the Lannisters managed to get a food suppply and all the gold of the Reach.  There is no way you can starve King's Landing into surrendering, when you don't have the gold, don't have the food and King's Landing does.That is exactly why Dany was so upset and wanted to show her prowess. Her starving strategy was ruined.

The lannisters did not get the food, they did however get the gold, That was then promptly turned over to the Iron Bank. Not sure what Cersie's current line of credit is with the Iron bank, but it appears she has used most of it not to be food, but to buy soldiers. Staving KL was still an option, so your wrong on this point, more on that later. 

6 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

At least she managed to kill off the most of the Lannister and Tyrell force, judging by the few remaining men that surrendered on screen. (That should answer your issue with the Dragonstone dungeons). I didn't even count 50.

I think you meant Tarley. There was well over 100 at least 150 and I am not sure what was in the picture was the total, or just a representation. Way more than the dungeons in dragonstone can hold, that is for sure. as long as we are on the topic, where are the prisoners the lannister/Tarley forces took in their sack of the Reach? I didn't see any, did you? Not, you want to talk about being a hypocrite..........

 

6 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Let's say, Dany hadn't gone North and instead focused on winning the war for the throne first. How do you think she had to do that, from thereon? She couldn't starve them anymore. Cersei would never admit defeat or surrender. There was but one option left: attack KL with dragons and her forces.

Cersei still didn't have any food, and had Dany not choose to leave, Eurons fleet could have been burned trying to leave KL. It's really not that hard. She doesn't need ships to keep other ships from entering the ports at Kings Harbor, and the Lannisters don't have the men to stop a blockade by land either. 

 

 

6 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Now, I don't see how "starving" a city (the original plan) is more "just" or "different", or "better". It's just more PR. That said, choking a city into surrendering or attacking it are both valid warfare options. 

Depends really. The idea is to force a revolt from the inside. A well placed assassin would do wonders. 

6 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

You seem to be under the impression that I don't believe Dany is trying or doesn't mean well. I actually do believe she wants to be a just queen beloved by everyone, who earned that love. She always has. I don't believe though that you can win a throne from an enemy such as Cersei in such a manner though, nor should you try to sugarcoat it with PR. To some extent,

Well, admitting that right there says she is better than the others, and now we are down to arguing about to what magnitude is she better. Slowly, your coming around. 

6 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

 

even Dany recognises that when after she tells Jon you have to do certain things to be in the power position to make the world a better place. It is why we say that "power corrupts". She cannot however claim to have been more just to people who surrendered.

And the sooner you recognize it, the sooner this debate will be over. 

6 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Ah so "more just than the others" = "you live"?

to some extent, yes. 

6 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Yup, alliances change during war, and they do so often without "bend the knee or die". Hell, Cersei proved that when she invited Tarly to KL. She didn't say "bend the knee or die", but painted the option of the two queens they could choose.

There was a little more than that though, wasn't there. Cersei also convinced him to break treaty with the Tyrells, and kill them, without first announcing his intentions. Your failing miserably in this example. 

6 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Yes, incarceration and occupation is a huge drain. Dany's options were indeed limited, after her battle against the Lannister forces. That's never been my point. Nor do I have an issue with it. I simply have an issue that Dany proclaims herself to be more just, when warfare and her choice how to deal with potential allies she cannot convince on the spot to acknowledge her isn't "more just". It's just "same old, same old".

And again, she is more just. She just doesn't live up to your 21st century ideal of what that should mean. And she doesn't have too. doesn't make her a hypocrite. 

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6 hours ago, Gala said:

In the end that Dickon's dumb decision is Dany's dumb decision. Randyll is one thing, but as Varys said "not burn him alive along side his son", which basically means "leave at least one of them alive" - Dickon. I bet that Dickon's death will blow her in the face later, because no one should ever underestimate Sam (especially in combination with Bran). I am guessing Bran is not fond of Dany at all - he actually expressed his attitude by only one phase said almost with contempt "We don't have time for this..." I presume that he knows that Dany would never abandon her crown even to save her people, she lacks that kind of self-sacrifice features (her lame attempt to be a good queen by marring a man she despises does not count, she didn't have to put her crown aside, it was done more to establish her as a queen rather than otherwise)

Randyll Tarly is not a lovable character, but he is consistent at least. He chose Cersei over Olenna because of Dany's Unsullied and Dothraki, which is understandable. Racist or not...they are foreign invaders...I would like to see you making that decision when a foreign army is invading your country, mind you, there is war going on in my country right now (invaders are not of another race and that does not matter for me, invader is an invader).

Janos Slynt is absolutely different story since Janos was SWORN brother of the Night's Watch and disobeyed a direct order of his commander, while Randyll Tarly has no allegiance to Dany and her cause, he swore no oaths to her, he was her PRISONER. 

Let's not theorize about who would do what... why don't you compare what other characters would do then, characters like Rhaegar, Ned, Davos, Tyrion...It was Dany who made that idiotic decision. 

Additionally, her attitude to Westeros and Westerosi is sheer hypocrisy: one thing is to free slaves and expect blind loyalty (even Messandei does not question her decisions and just serves her blindly), the other thing is to inspire loyalty among non-slaves who are actually used to criticize and question decision...thus, she chose "free the slaves, but enslave the free" approach. So much for breaking the wheel and inspiring loyalty. 

Bran didn't seem to express any contempt when he told Sam that Dany was coming, so I dismiss this argument as BS. I am sure Bran is quite aware that the North needs Dany, unlike the Northern fools. I don't think Brans comment was at all directed solely at Dany, but to both Sansa, Dany, lady Mormont, etc. What he was saying to everyone was that we don't have time for this petty bickering, period. I highly doubt Bran is the one to make snap character judgments, but looks at the big picture as well. No one is saying Dany hasn't made mistakes, but hell, Bran is about to forgive Jamie, something you shouldn't forget.  I also don't think Bran possess's the ability to foresee the future, and determine Dany is going to be bad. If you want to make something out of the looks bran was giving off, your much better to re-examine the look he was giving tyrion. 

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5 hours ago, Holymoly said:

It's kind of irrelevant. The world has moved on. The throne was taken from the Targaryens by force. It wasn't just a case of there being no living issue to continue the line. Similarly if Daenerys were to ascend to the throne then it would be hers as it is not currently "belonging" to the Targaryen line. She would be starting anew rather than reverting to her brother's lineage.

I think that line of thinking is exactly how Jon would react, Dany I am not so sure. And it's not quite that crystal clear either, if that was the way everyone thought, why did Ned have to hide Jon's lineage from robert, or why did robert kill Aery's children, and try to have Dany killed?

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4 hours ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

Randyll Tarly did not agree. He refused to take the black.

Rewatch the episode. He went on a little racist tirade before he was executed.

Dickon's life should have been spared yes. But if he insisted on dying (which he did), well....

Joffrey's situation was completely different. Joffrey had suffered a crushing defeat, lost a prized commander and was surrounded by enemies: Robb's Tully-Stark (and, as far as they were concerned, Arryn) coalition to the north and the northwest, Renly and the Tyrells from the southwest, Stannis from the east. To be honest, King Aerys was in a better position than what Joffrey was in and Aerys had half of the Seven Kingdoms rebel against him.

Showing mercy was not only noble but it was also was in his best interest that he deal with Ned Stark gently. Joffrey was so much of an idiot that he was incapable of selfishly acting in his own best interest.

Apples and oranges.

What you said in bold is true but people are also overlooking that, as a matter of justice, everything Ned did was based on the truth and laws, and everything Joffrey did was based on lies orchestrated by his mother, Littlefinger, and others (though it's not clear what Joffrey knew of the truth). Ned's execution was unjust because it was based on lies by people trying to cover up other lies. If the charges against Ned were truthful, execution would have been entirely justified albeit, as you point out, not strategically wise.

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54 minutes ago, Error-504 said:

The lannisters did not get the food, they did however get the gold, That was then promptly turned over to the Iron Bank. Not sure what Cersie's current line of credit is with the Iron bank, but it appears she has used most of it not to be food, but to buy soldiers. Staving KL was still an option, so your wrong on this point, more on that later. 

Well, they're not starving apparently in KL and the IB can open an indefinite line of credit as long as they know they have  a claimant who's paying back.

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I think you meant Tarley. There was well over 100 at least 150 and I am not sure what was in the picture was the total, or just a representation. Way more than the dungeons in dragonstone can hold, that is for sure. as long as we are on the topic, where are the prisoners the lannister/Tarley forces took in their sack of the Reach? I didn't see any, did you? Not, you want to talk about being a hypocrite..........

Yup meant Tarly.

With the massacre that occurred, the men we saw were all the ones who survived and surrendered, except for those who managed to slip away. Dungeons could hold them easily.

Ah, well we don't know what Tarly and Jaime did to the survivors. We do know that in the books Jaime lets people who surrender themselves and do not wish to join his force can go freely if they surrender arms (Riverlands). We know he kept the Freys from killing Edmure and he was disappointed when the Blackflish was slain on the show, knowing full well that neither men would bend the knee if asked. So, just because it wasn't shown what Jaime did with the survivors who surrendered, aside from handing Olenna poison, my bet would be that Jaime just let the disarmed survivors go freely.

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Cersei still didn't have any food, and had Dany not choose to leave, Eurons fleet could have been burned trying to leave KL. It's really not that hard. She doesn't need ships to keep other ships from entering the ports at Kings Harbor, and the Lannisters don't have the men to stop a blockade by land either. 

So, you're saying that Dany can still starve KL by flying constantly across the ocean to burn smuggler ships. Except while she's doing that, they get food in via Duskendale or Maidenpool. So, she would have to deploy the Unsullied to cut off all possible ways to smuggle food in and burn Euron's fleet and burn trade ships (let's say from Braavos). If fleets are deliberately split up, she's in a pickle. She might have 3 dragons, but she can fly only one, and the 2 others follow. That is if scorpions don't get her dragons. 

That said, if the show wants something to happen, it will.

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Depends really. The idea is to force a revolt from the inside. A well placed assassin would do wonders. 

Renly hoped the same would happen. If KL didn't revolt and attempt to assassin Cersei after blowing up the sept, and never made any serious attempt against Joffrey during the previous starvation effort (except during a riot provoked by Joffrey), I don't see how you can hope that plan to work.

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Well, admitting that right there says she is better than the others, and now we are down to arguing about to what magnitude is she better. Slowly, your coming around. 

There is a huge difference between how a character sees themselves and what they think they are and their actual actions, and thus are delusional. Book Tyrion believes he's a good man, trying to make things better, but in reality he's simply perpetuating a situation where Joffrey sits the throne, actually aiding someone he himself believes to be monstrous. And George calls him a villain because of it. Every character believes hismelf to be the hero of his own story, and Dany certainly no less.

This execution of the Tarlys is set up in the show to reveal that Dany's self-image and who she professes to be jars with the impulsive choices she makes, especially when she's angry. You might want to read up on Bradley's interview about his scene with Dany. Sam basically considers Dany morally bankrupt and a psychopath, just for the way she informs him about what she did.

Furthermore I do not appreciate you're trying to frame this as if I am "changing my mind" or something. I clearly stated that had been my opinion all along that I believe Dany aims to be a good just ruler. It has also always been my opinion that she is anything but just.

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And the sooner you recognize it, the sooner this debate will be over. 

We can stop this merry-go-round debate anytime any 1 of us want.  You know what. It stops here. I've explained enough. I'm not changing my mind, nor are you. I don't debate to "win", but to help expand insight for both sides. You now very much make it clear it's about winning, and keep building strawmen-arguments to knock down. Joust as many strawmen as you want. I'm sure that other readers can make up their own minds about my posts.

 

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25 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Well, they're not starving apparently in KL and the IB can open an indefinite line of credit as long as they know they have  a claimant who's paying back.

 

But do they know that? How much of a line of credit will they have if Eurons fleet gets destroyed and the GC never makes it to Westeros?

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Yup meant Tarly.

With the massacre that occurred, the men we saw were all the ones who survived and surrendered, except for those who managed to slip away. Dungeons could hold them easily.

Ah, well we don't know what Tarly and Jaime did to the survivors. We do know that in the books Jaime lets people who surrender themselves and do not wish to join his force can go freely if they surrender arms (Riverlands). We know he kept the Freys from killing Edmure and he was disappointed when the Blackflish was slain on the show, knowing full well that neither men would bend the knee if asked. So, just because it wasn't shown what Jaime did with the survivors who surrendered, aside from handing Olenna poison, my bet would be that Jaime just let the disarmed survivors go freely.

Not the books, but ok. 

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So, you're saying that Dany can still starve KL by flying constantly across the ocean to burn smuggler ships. Except while she's doing that, they get food in via Duskendale or Maidenpool. So, she would have to deploy the Unsullied to cut off all possible ways to smuggle food in and burn Euron's fleet and burn trade ships (let's say from Braavos). If fleets are deliberately split up, she's in a pickle. She might have 3 dragons, but she can fly only one, and the 2 others follow. That is if scorpions don't get her dragons. 

Look at the map, cutting off access to the ports into KL is an easy task. she only has to patrol a small stretch of sea north and south of Dragonstone. 

You seem to not understand that there are 1/2 a million people in KL, a few wagons that make it in are insignificant. And Cersei has no allies outside of the Gates of KL. Even if ships got into Duskendale or Maidenpool, the supplies still have to travel by land to KL. You don't think 100,000 Dothraki and 20,000 Unsullied could patrol all the roads into KL?

Come on man!

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That said, if the show wants something to happen, it will.

Renly hoped the same would happen. If KL didn't revolt and attempt to assassin Cersei after blowing up the sept, and never made any serious attempt against Joffrey during the previous starvation effort (except during a riot provoked by Joffrey), I don't see how you can hope that plan to work.

Actually revolt was at their doorstep with the High Septon. but that's another discussion. And Cersei maintains control by fear, how can she do that when an opposing army sits just outside KL's walls? All they have to do is open the gates. 

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There is a huge difference between how a character sees themselves and what they think they are and their actual actions, and thus are delusional. Book Tyrion believes he's a good man, trying to make things better, but in reality he's simply perpetuating a situation where Joffrey sits the throne, actually aiding someone he himself believes to be monstrous. And George calls him a villain because of it. Every character believes hismelf to be the hero of his own story, and Dany certainly no less.

This execution of the Tarlys is set up in the show to reveal that Dany's self-image and who she professes to be jars with the impulsive choices she makes, especially when she's angry. You might want to read up on Bradley's interview about his scene with Dany. Sam basically considers Dany morally bankrupt and a psychopath, just for the way she informs him about what she did.

We can stop this merry-go-round debate anytime any 1 of us want.  You know what. It stops here. I've explained enough. I'm not changing my mind, nor are you. I don't debate to "win", but to help expand insight for both sides. You now very much make it clear it's about winning, and keep building strawmen-arguments to knock down. Joust as many strawmen as you want. I'm sure that other readers can make up their own minds about my posts.

Oh, you have tossed your fair share of straw mans out there yourself. So Pul-lease. I really have come to appreciate your complete lack of understanding of war, what it means, and how they are fought. The "it would be hard to cut off food to KL" argument was classic. 

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On 4/15/2019 at 12:56 PM, Frances Bean Corbray said:

HEY!  GAME OF THRONES IS BACK!

HEY!  I'M BACK!


You know what that means.  The MODIFIED MCSHANE SCORING SYSTEM IS BACK, TOO, and we're gonna ride it all the way through this 6 episode home stretch to determine scientifically just how good the swan song for this series is.


First things first:  Tits?  YES, in the form of Bronn doing Bronn things to remind you Bronn is Bronn.  Dragons?  YES.  So we have potential for a perfect 10 out of 10 episode.


Since Season 8 is re-establishing the show after a 20 month layoff AND it's the climax of the narrataive where all the geographically divergent plot threads finish merging together, I decided the show would be in line for some bonus points if every active [i.e. not plausibly written out/killed off] character made an appearance and 8.1 got really, really close.  Alas, no Pod and no Brie-Brie.  No points off, because this was just a bonus thing, because they still got really close, spiritually fulfilling the idea if not literally, and because no Brienne of Tarth means I don't have to come up with any Captain Phasma jokes this week.


I like when this show lets its cinematography breath.  We follow the journey of a young boy running around and being a little brat who climbs a tree and watches the parade of characters roll into Winterfell.  The tree happens to be near where Arya is standing so our perspective shifts to her as she smiles at all the people she likes (Gendry, Jon) and sneers at the people she doesn't (Sandor).  I do like how the little boy (it's actually Lord Ned Umber, remember him?) and Arya are visibly WTF at all the marching Unsullied because of course they'd have heard of but never seen any before.  NO DIALOGUE at first.  Which turns out to be a good thing as the first words of the new season a couple clunkers of "lol Eunuch" jokes from Tyrion at Varys' expense.  Varys even points out the naked hypocrisy of Tyrion making eunuch jokes while hating drawf jokes.  To which Tyrion responds with another joke about eunuchs not having testicles.  Well, at least it's out of the way.  MINUS ONE QUARTER POINT for the jokes that aren't even that funny. [9.75]


Once everyone who matters is inside Jon hugs his brother who is actually his cousin Bran and Sansa & Dany start exchanging feudal pleasantries to remind everybody we're in a period piece (with dragons) when Dr. Branhattan correctly interrupts and reminds everybody that WE ARE ALL GOING TO DIE unless we stop wasting time with medieval bullshit and focus on surviving personified climate change.  We have a conference scene where little Alys Karstark does a little silent existing, little Ned Umber drives home the whole medieval period piece thing by asking for horses and blah blah de blah so he can go pick up his people, and little Lyana Mormont yells at Jon for being a simp on behalf of all Northerners and Jon reminds everybody for the 83rd time that he [correctly] did this because crowns ain't shit if everybody's dead.  Now I understand and like that one of the central themes of ASOIAF and by extension GOT is that Feudalism Actually Sucks so they do need to belabor the point that people are stuck in the old ways of doing things and old tactics aren't suited to new battlefield realities but I GET IT ALREADY, SHOW.  Minus .5 for beating the drum a little too much. [9.25]


QYBURN shows up to inform Cersei that the army of the dead has breached the wall (you know, given that the wall is 8000 years old you'd think more people would be freaking out about it being destroyed, but whatever), to which Cersei replies GOOD.  I like the efficiency in re-establishing that Cersei is evil, crazy, and dumb.  Pan to the Greyjoy fleet just outside of King's Landing harbor WHERE:
Captain Jack Greyjoy is the worst uncle Yara has ever heard of.  BUT YOU HAVE HEARD OF ME.  Anyway, we get a throwaway reference to Euron's crew all being mutes and the show at least TRIES to lampshade not just killing Yara off (set up oh so artfully by having Yara ask "so why haven't you killed me yet?").  Euron explains that he wants someone to talk to and we get our first obligatory LOL THEON GOT CASTRATED REMEMBER LOL joke of the season.  Euron vows to go fuck the queen.  You WISH you were on Sallador Saan's level, bro.  I really should take more than half a point off for this shit, but I want Asha to live through the series purely because I think she's cool, and this scene keeps that hope alive along with her, so only minus .5. [8.75]


Are you ready for the least Game Of Thronesy name ever that is ironically actually a canonical ASOIAF name?  Say hi to HARRY STRICKLAND.  He will be your waiter this evening at on-screen representation of the Golden Company restaurant.  He explains there will be no elephants because the dragons eat up all the budget ER I MEAN they're too much of a hassle to transport over water even though Hannibal managed the feat just fine much to Republican Rome's chagrin.  Harry Strickland looks like a Jaime Lannister cosplayer and I actually think that's a brilliant little touch.  Cersei and Euron have the same conversation they had 3 or 4 times last season only this time it continues after sex and concludes with a vow to put a prince in Cersei's belly, and we get lingering silence on Cersei's face giving YOU time to remember she told Jaime she was already pregnant last season.  Did they forget?  Did Cersei lie to Jaime about being pregnant?  Is she lying to Euron about not being pregnant?   Does it really matter?  No.  Too long, too redundant, too much making me wish Sallador Saan was still here.  But Strickland being generic store brand Jaime is just too good.  Only minus half a point [8.25]


Bronn does a Bronn thing until Qyburn cockblocks him by showing up to hand him his plot thread for the year [Cersei wants her brothers dead, will pay].  Joffrey's crotchbow makes its return to the show.  The annuled Stokeworth engagment is referenced.  Nothing remarkable about this scene, other than Qyburn tapping into his mad scientist spidey sense and predicting whore #2 will be dead of the pox within a year.  Qyburn is awesome.  I will give this a quarter point for Qyburn's line and for planting the potential for a White Walker Whore complete with Zombie Herpes shambling around in Episode 5.  [8.5]


JON AND ARYA HUGGING IT OUT FOR THE FIRST TIME IN 60 EPISODES GET HYPE.  Arya respects Sansa now.  Jon thinks that's weird but Arya reminds Jon that they're all family and on the same team.  Sorta.


DRAGON RIDING.  Okay this was pretty cool and while the dialogue is dragging behind the other elements of the show ("what if I fall off?"  "Then I have enjoyed your company."  I realize you THINK this is funny, show, but mostly it makes Dany sound like a dick and also I don't buy her being that blase about Jon potentially dying) but this scene does end with them finding a nice secluded spot to engage in Muchas Smoochas and it's good enough that I buy Jon and Dany as mutually horny teenagers.  Maybe they will make me actually feel the love by the end of this thing.


Gendry makes Sandor a Dragonglass Axe.  Gendry is Mr. Dragonglass.  Arya stops in to say hello and anachronistic shit about Gendry knowing one rich girl.  There's a little more to feudal class divides than that, show.  Arya and The Hound snip at each other and exchange begrudging respect.  MINUS ONE QUARTER POINT for breaking my immersion with the rich girl lines. [8.25]


I Used To Be An Extra Like You, Then I Took An Arrow To The Face.  Mystery arrows start dropping fools on Euron's boat and the problem with an all-mute crew - namely, nobody can shout out the alarm - immediately presents itself.  THEON IS FINALLY KICKING SOME ASS.  Took long enough!  While Euron is off trying to fill Sallador Saan's shoes, Theon is in his base, killing his d00dz, and liberating his captive.  Yara headbutts Theon as soon as she's cut free, which really smacks of lazy action movie "punch you then hug you" tripe, but then again these are the Greyjoys and that might just be how they shake hands in that fucked up family.  Also, as far as headbutts go, it was pretty good.  Theon and Yara make a clean getaway and Yara writes herself out of the main plot by explaining she's off to re-take the homeland while Euron's busy getting his dick wet, and justifies it by stating Team Dany will need a fallback point in case Shit Goes Wrong (and let's be real here, Shit is going to go Wrong).  Yara takes one more glance at the script and realizes Theon really wants to go to the sleepover at Jon's house and she gives him leave to do so.  A little disappointed in the lack of a showdown with maybe Theon heroically overcoming some of his trauma long enough to beat Euron's ass, but this DOES conform to a classic ASOIAF theme of thinking with your dick screws you over, as has happened to Euron here.  Theon got to be cool, Yara gets to live, and Theon is off to join the main plot at Winterfell.  I AM HAPPY.  Plus half a point [8.75]


Tyrion and Sansa check the character interaction box, but this is pretty nothing other than making Sansa kinda look like more of a dick than I think she should be and making sure the Lord Royce costume is still in working order.


Jon and Sansa have a chat.  Apparently the Glovers are not coming to the sleepover.  Sansa intimates this is Jon's fault somehow (even though she was already chirping about too many mouths to feed back when Dany's foreign hordes showed up) and implies that Jon bent the knee because he wants to bone Dany which, okay, kinda yeah (and Jon's face totally gives it away that this is part of it).  And Jon reminds her for the 500th time that it's actually because ZOMBIES.  I'm not sure if Sansa is supposed to be Not Quite Getting It because feudalism sucks, or because She Really Liked The Idea Of Being A Queen, or if it's just that they can't get the handle of characterizing someone as A Strong Woman without defaulting to Kinda A Bitch/"badass" dude only with tits.  Which is hardly a problem exclusive to Game of Thrones.  Anyway. WE GET IT, SHOW, Jon and Sansa don't trust each other and people aren't seeing the big undead picture.  I'm taking a full point off because I'm getting annoyed.  [7.75]


Dany, accompanied by Jorah The Fedorah, pops in to say hi to Sam.  Dany thanks Sam for saving Fedorah's life and does the classic feudal "name your reward" thing.  Sam asks for a pardon for all his theiving, including Heartsbane, which leads into an awkward convo where Dany reveals that she killed Sam's dad and bro which is a bit of a bombshell for Sam even though his dad was a total shit.  Family's complicated like that.  And besides Rickon Dickon was a decent enough dude.  Dany does not include the burnination detail.  Sam, tears in his eyes, asks to be excused.  I keep forgetting the name of the actor who plays Sam, which is too bad because I really like him here.  The "I killed your dad.  oh yeah, your brother, too" dialogue between Dany and Sam was good comedy beats, but this was supposed to be drama/tragedy.  So it feels pretty forced and like you can see the nuts and bolts of the stage.  DERP.


Sam runs out crying into the night and of course Dr. Branhattan is there, and he consoles Sam's grief by informing him now would be a good time to tell Jon about his true lineage.  Sam tries to pawn it off on Bran, because Bran is Jon's brother.  Of course, the whole point of this is that strictly speaking he isn't, but whateves.  Bran points out that Jon trusts Sam more (does not point out Sam also has the qualification of being able to walk) and off Sam goes into the crypt to hug it out with Jon.  


Ned Statue!  Sam apologizes for going into the Stark only zone, even though non-Starks pop up here fairly regularly now.  Sam drops the bombshell.  YOUR MOTHER....WEARS COMBAT BOOTS

oh no wait excuse me, typo, YOUR MOTHER WAS LYANNA STARK.  Rhaegar's your dad, Bob's your uncle, you're actually Aegon VI and you might want to go backsies on the whole knee bending thing because you are ahead of Dany in line.  Sam also cites his dead dad and bro as a reason why Jon would actually be better at the whole king thing.  Jon also seemed not to know Dany burnt Sam's family, though I'm not sure why she'd be expected to tell him or why Jon would be particulary bothered by it.  Also one literally asked for it and the other had it coming so while Sam's bias is understandable (and a good plot tension hook going forward, maybe) I'm not sure this is as big a deal as Sam feels it is.  So we got that done.  MINUS 1 POINT for Bran's "he's not my brother" line because he's still your cousin, you pedantic little shit.  MINUS 1 POINT for Dany and Sam having a comedy dialogue exchange in a tragedy scene.  PLUS 1 POINT for Sam's actor being great.  PLUS HALF A POINT for Jon having a good freakout over learning the truth and for getting that reveal out of the way. [7.25]


Next, an instructional video on how to paint your horror movie by the numbers.  Tormund and Beric lead a cautious sweep of a very destroyed looking Last Hearth (complete with torn up Umber banners still hanging so you know) looking for signs of life, of which there are none.  OMG FOOSTEPS EVERYBODY HIDE.  Comedic relief of tension as it turns out to be Edd's crew doing the same thing.  Edd leads Tormund and Beric to the only body they could find, which turns out to be Little Ned Umber, tacked to the wall in the center of a White Walker spiral pattern.  "It's a message from the White Walkers" NO SHIT SHERLOCK BERIC the show wasn't on hiatus for that long, geez, it's been well established over 7 seasons as thing we do.  Anyway, to the surprise of no one, the camera cuts to Tormund at an angle where you can see dead Ned over his shoulder and recognize the facial makeup used for everyone who springs to life as a wight and the dead kid starts screaming and hissing to provide your jump scare at exactly the right time.  People freak out, Beric turns on his flamethrower and stabs the kid with his sword [once is enough with the Omni-Tool!] who immediately catches fire all over, spreading specificaly to the spirals and nothing else.  Inhuman screeching continues until he finishes burning.  MINUS A QUARTER POINT for being a scene for every horror movie ever.  MINUS HALF POINT for Beric's flamethrower sword telling physics to eat a dick.  PLUS HALF A POINT for courageously killing off a little kid.  PLUS A QUARTER POINT for working Edd in and not forgetting about him. [7.25]


THE HOODED MAN comes to Winterfell.  Well that was quick, Theon.  Oh no wait it's JAIME finally showing up, the other guy who damn well better stay incognito when showing up to Winterfell.  Jaime's got some great gray beard action going on that has him looking like Old Man Luke Skywalker in the new Star Wars films.  Of course the first person he makes eye contact with is Bran.  DUN DUN DUN.  and roll credits.


FINAL SCORE:  7.25.


Competent but not mindblowing.  I'm probably being a soft judge here because I'm glad the show's back, also the degree of difficulty is down as they enter the home stretch and they just have to not piss themselves while tying up all the dangling plot threads into one big fuzzy ball of climax.  Whatever. This didn't make me feel like a total fool for waiting 20 months to see and gave me enough good feels that I can say I was content with this episode and I can look past its warts.

Like the break down format. Lots of work! Thanks man!

Edited by A man has no name
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On ‎4‎/‎15‎/‎2019 at 3:55 AM, bloodsteel bitterraven said:

Can we discuss book spoilers here?  If so, given what George said about the books and the show having very similar endings, my guess is that the Aegon storyline in the books is going nowhere.  I feel that if George had stuck to the 7 main characters, and not expanded the universe to the point where he's actually writing history, the books would have been finished by now.  Oh well.. 

The question is: what part of Aegon's storyline has been co-opted by other characters in the show version?  My theory is that Cersei will burn King's Landing causing people to flock to Aegon's cause.  He will topple Cersei at some point in WoW and he (and Arianne) will be ruling when Dany lands in Westeros.  She'll be all Fire & Blood with her dragons, screaming Dothraki, Unsullied and possibly Victarion's Iron Born.  Such an invading army will be the terror of Westeros.  This will mean further gains for Aegon.

I'm unsure about the Jon/Dany malarkey we have in the show.  It feels vastly too cheesy for GRRM.  I could see a Dany/ Aegon (maybe  Jon) marriage alliance as a possibility down the line, but not as a love story.

However, I think Aegon will serve the purpose of highlighting Dany's sense of entitlement to the Iron Throne.  If she finds out about Aegon and believes he is genuinely her nephew, will she be delighted to find a member of her family or angry that he may be considered to have a better claim to the throne than she?  Will we see this aspect played out with Jon in his Aegon incarnation in the show?  I'm sure there will be a dance of dragons one way or another in the books (and I'm not convinced there'll be an ice dragon in those).

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It's hard to know if they are fomenting artificial conflict and writing it as ‘mad queen’ v ‘rightful heir’ like they did with the Stark sisters and Littlefinger last year, or if the simmering conflict is genuine.

Personally, I think there have been enough signs throughout the show and books that Dany is heading towards tyranny, such that I'm not entirely sure this time if it is a bluff or in fact a double bluff.

If Dany were a real person, though, her personality would disturb me at this stage.

 

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On 4/16/2019 at 1:05 AM, Tara Cicora said:

He looked like he was being extra protective of 'mommy', I have a pony that is the same way with me.

To me Drogon looked more like he also needs a bang ASAP. :ph34r:^_^  That scene was a bit off, I understand that the director probably wanted to convey that Drogon  is protective with Dany but I don't know why to include the scene itself. Its obvious he is protective, he has always been protective. You shouldn't repeat messages already told as a storyteller, thats just consuming up screentime and lags the story itself. I had to rewind the scene to check if I've missed any hidden meaning, only to be reassured by myself that I certainly did not miss anything... bad. 

 

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On 4/15/2019 at 10:41 PM, TheValonqarThatWasAzorAhai said:

Yes, the wheel of them returning.  Remember the last time that they were active, there was no Targ presence in Westeros.

So you think the other reason for the WW attack is to kill the last Targaryen? If there is another reason for their existence besides killing all humans, that is.

I do think it is an interesting point of view and would justify their wheel symbol to be so similar to the Targ symbol

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10 hours ago, AndréaV said:

So you think the other reason for the WW attack is to kill the last Targaryen? If there is another reason for their existence besides killing all humans, that is.

I do think it is an interesting point of view and would justify their wheel symbol to be so similar to the Targ symbol

WW existing to kill the last Targ doesn't make any sense at all though. Maester Aemon has been at the wall for decades, Jon/Aegon has been in the north his entire life. Plus the long night was thousands of years before the Targs ever invaded Westeros so the entire Targ family reign came and went and the WW never showed themselves. 

The symbol thing however is interesting. First thing I thought when they showed him on the wall was that it looks like the Targ sigil.

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Afaik it's a Children of the Forest-sign, so way older than the Targaryens sigil.
We saw it (among others) in the caves beneath Dragonstone last season.

Why they White Walkers use it over and over we can only speculate on.
To spite the CotF?
Because the CotF use it? (the WW are a CotF-weapon gone haywire after all)
As some sort of magical nexus?

Hopefully the show will give us an answer before it's over and not just sweep it under the rug.
 

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On 4/15/2019 at 2:58 AM, divica said:

did jon seriously just went and rode a dragon?

Like can everybody ride dragons now? 

what was the point of leaving the creepy kid stuck on the castle?

Pinning Ned Umber to the wall was a warning. They destroyed last Hearth and wiped out a noble house, they wanted someone to find him and know it was the NK and that he was coming for Winter fell next. 

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On 4/15/2019 at 3:41 AM, tinae1981 said:

Ok - love all the dragons scenes but WHERE IS GHOST????

I think we saw his bones in the trailer...

...but in seriousness, I suppose he'll be back for a dramatic save at some point. Wouldn't be the first time.

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On 4/16/2019 at 4:17 PM, Forlong the Fat said:

While I agree that Cersei's base of power is not adequately explained, you are jumping over something pretty major here. The Dothraki have been feared "savages" in Westeros for a very long time. Robert referenced this all the way back in season one. Ned acknowledged them as a threat but thought they would never cross the sea. Randyll Tarly's aversion to Dothraki (and all "savages" for that matter) was explained and didn't come from nowhere.

The fact that Cersei's base of power (both as Cersei Lannister the noblewoman and as the One who Sits the Iron Throne) is poorly explained is a huge plot hole. It's called jumping the shark and it's destroyed other shows just as good as Game of Thrones.

To skip over the Westerosi phobia of the Dothraki is a minor plot hole. The only people (Westerosi or not) who have explicitly expressed or shown a deep fear of or talked about the legendary status of the Dothraki to date have been: Randyll Tarly in one scene of season 7, Robert Baratheon in maybe three separate scenes in season 1, Cersei Lannister in one scene season 7 and Jaime Lannister in one scene in season 7. Both the Randyll Tarly and Jaime Lannister scenes happened after the fact that the Dothraki destroyed the armies of the West and the Reach and Cersei had a cold throwaway line about it in the finale.

If the Dothraki were as bad as described by Robert Baratheon, people should be running around screaming and cowering in fear. There should have been mass desertions amongst men fighting on the side of the Lannisters and the Tarlys. And it should have been a laughably one-sided battle. Like no Dothraki should have been felled.

But it wasn't. So evidently, the showrunners have repeatedly shown that the Dothrakiphobia present in Westeros is not worthy enough to home in on.

Yet, they have repeatedly shown that power bases are especially important...particularly for anyone aspiring to take and hold the Iron Throne. If it's not passed down, it has to be earned and fought for. Even if it's passed down or given to you, you have to be diligent enough to keep it. These are the rules of the show.

There should be absolutely no reason for Cersei to be on the Iron Throne. Especially not after suffering from such a crushing defeat at the hands of Daenerys. Unless you believe that there is no one to protest or challenge her...which is not true given the nature of the people who live in the city she rules.

What was the purpose of Stannis struggling so much? Nobody liked him and he had to struggle to find men to follow him and take what was owed to him under the rules of the Baratheon dynasty. 

So why does Stannis struggle so much for the bare minimum when Cersei only has to sip on a glass of red wine, smirk and click her heels three times.

It's a case of cleaning something that has only been ever-so-slightly used and not cleaning something that is a filthy health hazard.

 

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On 4/16/2019 at 5:17 PM, Forlong the Fat said:

What you said in bold is true but people are also overlooking that, as a matter of justice, everything Ned did was based on the truth and laws, and everything Joffrey did was based on lies orchestrated by his mother, Littlefinger, and others (though it's not clear what Joffrey knew of the truth). Ned's execution was unjust because it was based on lies by people trying to cover up other lies. If the charges against Ned were truthful, execution would have been entirely justified albeit, as you point out, not strategically wise.

LOL

Everything Ned did was not based on the truth and laws. That's the whole point.

That's why the revelation of Jon Snow's heritage and the true nature of Robert's Rebellion is such a big bombshell in the show and the books alike (but moreso in the books)

Most of the stuff he did after the Rebellion ended were based upon lies. They were all noble but it was not true nor did it feel good.

 

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