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Dany giving up the crown to save people is what Sam made up on the spot because he was upset. I get that. But why should that be a criteria? How about Dany risking the only 3 dragons in the world to save people, doesn't that count?

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11 minutes ago, btfu806 said:

I haven't been able to stand her for a while now (I never cared for her in the books... so maybe I was biased to begin with). But it seems like they are trying really hard to make her seem like a jerk, or more of a grey character. I think she will last till the last episode because of plot armor. But I hope she dies as the villain. It seems like the path she is going down.

In her defense, she is trying to find a balance for at least three fairly complicated (and somewhat conflicting) goals (1)  accomplishing her lifelong goal of re-establishing her family’s claim to all of Westeros, including the North, (2) addressing the threat of the White Walkers (and to her credit, she has committed all of her resources to that, and put (1) essentially on hold to accomplish it), and (3) figuring out how to do all this while also “breaking the wheel” and becoming a better ruler than both the Mad King, and what replaced him.

In this context, how she acts when she gets in front of all the nobles from the north, and is pubicly undermined by Sansa and Mormont, is a bit complicated. And she’s figuring out how to deal with it in real time.

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The episode was alright. Mostly set up. The Notherners were childish though, especially Sansa. Seriously the Night King is on his way but they're mad that Jon bent the knee? Yeah you're not all about to possibly die or anything. I usually love Lyanna Mormont but she showed her age this episode by throwing that little tantrum. 

Sam Sam Sam. He was so out of character this episode. The reaction to his father and brother dying, the way he asked Jon if he would have done what Dany did before telling him about his parentage came off as petty in my opinion. If Jon had said yes would he have not told him about his parents? 

Anyway it will be interesting to see the Jon/Dany dynamic now that he knows the truth. 

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I wonder what was up with Drogon giving Jon the evil eye:

1) Are they implying Drogo's soul is in Drogon, and he doesn't like Jon getting cozy with his moons and stars?

or

2) A simple foreshadowing that there will be conflict between Jon and Dany, with dragons involved? A quick one-on-one dance of dragons if you will.

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13 minutes ago, Forlong the Fat said:

The problem with your arguments is, first, that you’re applying modern ideas to judge actions in the show, and second, that you’re doing it inconsistently.  

Within the morality established in the show (and the books, and generally medieval ways of doing things) what Daenerys did was acceptable.  If you are defeated by someone who has a claim to your loyalty, you can affirm the claim of loyalty, take the black, or be executed.  She offered those choices to the Tarlys and they chose execution.  Our ideas of treatment of POWs aren’t accepted by anyone in Westeros. 

And you are being inconsistent with this because you aren’t applying modern ideas to the treatment of Littlefinger, among others.  He didn’t receive anything close to due process prior to his execution.  Yet his execution fit within the ethical and legal framework of Westeros.  Likewise for the execution of Slynt.

No, your argument of "my modern ideas" doesn't apply. I'm holding Dany against her own promises and aims about herself as ruler.

I'm not arguing that she can't do as Tywin has or Aerys or Cersei... Go ahead Dany. But if she does do it, this contradicts her claim and aim about herself about "breaking the wheel" or "giving them a choice for a better life"... She didn't prove she was better than Tywin. No, she proved she deals with these issues like Tywin Lannister. She proved she is going to keep the wheel going. All choice she gave them was the very classic choice "live or die" (a horrible death). .

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Every Last Chicken said:

Was anyone esle a little irked at how Daenerys handled herself throughout the episode? 

-smirks when all the small folks run in fear of the dragons in winter town. 

-offers no reassurance in the great hall that she will be a just ruler or that she was fully supported to helping. Only a snarky comment about her dragons "eating whatever they want"

-makes a veiled threat directed at Sansa in Jon's presence (if she doesnt obey) just before the dothraki show up and cut their conversation short. 

-offers zero condolences to Sam for the executions of his family. Just very matter of fact and unforgiving. 

I honestly don't think shes going to last this season. She's way too prideful and entitled. 

I've only seen clips so far.

in fairness to Dany, I think she handled the meeting with Sam about as well as she could.  Offering condolences would have been hypocritical in the circumstances, but she did come over as being somewhat sympathetic.

Admittedly, Sam hasn't yet found out exactly how his father and brother died. At this stage, he probably just thinks they refused to surrender.

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1 hour ago, Every Last Chicken said:

offers zero condolences to Sam for the executions of his family. Just very matter of fact and unforgiving.

Eh, I wouldn't exactly say that.  She delivered the information without sugar coating it, or allowing him to find out for himself.  She gave him leave when he asked politely for some time for composure.  Matter of fact, to the point, yes.  But I thought she delivered the news as well as one could in that circumstance.

I hope Dany doesn't go dark. I would be very disappointed.  I mentioned in another thread though, that I think this will be a turning point toward the light.  She started out in such a powerless position that it is physically revolting for her to be seen as weak or compromising, so she does these displays of strength that verge on terrible.  Now, she is being forced to reckon with how displays of strength can be a weakness, too, and I think she will temper with mercy going forth.

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2 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

No, your argument of "my modern ideas" doesn't apply. I'm holding Dany against her own promises and aims about herself as ruler.

I'm not arguing that she can't do as Tywin has or Aerys or Cersei... Go ahead Dany. But if she does do it, this contradicts her claim and aim about herself about "breaking the wheel" or "giving them a choice for a better life"... She didn't prove she was better than Tywin. No, she proved she deals with these issues like Tywin Lannister. She proved she is going to keep the wheel going. All choice she gave them was the very classic choice "live or die" (a horrible death). .

 

 

 

Tyrion's and Varys' unhappiness about what happened does suggest that in-universe, her treatment of the Tarlys would be viewed as morally questionable.

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If Dany gave up her crown or the IT, she wouldn't be going around insisting on being the queen. What's she the queen of? Somehow I don't think she's settling for Queen in the North.

She's still set on the IT, she's just taking a detour which landed her part of the 7 Kingdoms. 

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5 minutes ago, Gogossos said:

Dany giving up the crown to save people is what Sam made up on the spot because he was upset. I get that. But why should that be a criteria? How about Dany risking the only 3 dragons in the world to save people, doesn't that count?

I agree.  And I was frustrated with this episode for reasons I couldn’t put my finger on until I gave it some thought.

I think, with 6 episodes left, the premier introduced more complications and conflicts than were really necessary.  On this point, it was inevitable that Jon having a superior claim to Daenerys would introduce some problems.  But do we really need Sam’s feelings about the execution of his father (who he despised and recognized as an evil person anyway) to complicate his relationship with Jon and Daenerys at this point? And do we need that in addition top a Jon, Sansa, Arya conflict about the proper rule of the north> On top of a Tyrion, Jon, Daenerys, Jaime, Cersei conflict about whatever? And a Stark, Glover, Mormont conflict?

It seems to me that it’s time to consolidate a bit more than split with so little story left.  And I am worried it will all play out like Arya Sansa Littlefinger plot last year—if they had spent 5 more minutes on that and established at some point that Arya and Sansa were playing Littlefinger for some time (which seems to be the case but wasn’t established) it would have been much more satisfying, 

 

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4 minutes ago, Lady Rhodes said:

Eh, I wouldn't exactly say that.  She delivered the information without sugar coating it, or allowing him to find out for himself.  She gave him leave when he asked politely for some time for composure.  Matter of fact, to the point, yes.  But I thought she delivered the news as well as one could in that circumstance.

I agree. She could have easily pretended not to know who Sam's father and brother were. Even made it seem like they died honorably on the battlefield but she didn't do that. She respected him enough to look him in the eye and tell him what she did. She didn't take the easy way and that was admirable I think. 

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7 hours ago, Mystical said:

Oleanna was a KINGSLAYER and child murderer. The same goes for Ellaria Sand. The Ironborne under Theon and Yara invaded the North and you know what they are famous for doing. Should Dany be judged by the company and allies she keeps? But you have an issue with Tarly choosing the crown over someone who isn't even the rightful ruler of the Reach or even Highgarden but not with Dany associating herself with the likes of these people?

For the record, stop comparing 'crimes'. That's not how it works. People actions have to be judged on their own merit. It's a weak argument when you basically defend your point by saying 'well A did this and it was so much worse so it's ok what B did.'

Except it's not a weak argument, it's a strong one. It go's to point out the accepted norms in a given society. Stop using 21st century morality on a show based in midevil times. 

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7 hours ago, GeorgeIAF said:

I don't blame Dany for burning the Tyrells, this is war, people die in it. It's not like he betrayed anyone, she even offered to spare them but they didn't want any of that and chose to die. It was their choice.

I think Sam has his judgement clouded by the sudden news of his family's death, he'll come around.

 

 

Everyone is appalled because of the Sam factor, and then there are those hell-bent on showing Dany is crazy. Fine, then all of westeros is bat-poop crazy as well. Randyll Tarley deserved to die, period. Dickon was just plain stupid, even Randyll wanted him to bend the knee. POW camps did not exist in those days, and though they might take an occasional hostage if he had any strategic value, the soldiers would have been executed had they followed Randyll's lead. The burning saved lives. 

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15 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

No, your argument of "my modern ideas" doesn't apply. I'm holding Dany against her own promises and aims about herself as ruler.

I'm not arguing that she can't do as Tywin has or Aerys or Cersei... Go ahead Dany. But if she does do it, this contradicts her claim and aim about herself about "breaking the wheel" or "giving them a choice for a better life"... She didn't prove she was better than Tywin. No, she proved she deals with these issues like Tywin Lannister. She proved she is going to keep the wheel going. All choice she gave them was the very classic choice "live or die" (a horrible death). .

 

 

 

But there’s a space between acting like Tywin or Aerys and not executing traitors that still includes ruling in a better manner.  We have to remember the context of what she’s doing—she’s re-establishing feudal rule over Westeros, not running for election on a progressive platform. And this is a conflict she’s dealing with in real time—can she be different and also be Queen of all of Westeros?  Maybe and maybe not.  But I don’t think executing the Tarly’s precludes her from being better than Tywin or Aerys.

As to your judgment of Jon and Sansa, for example, I think we all hope they will be better rulers as well.  And we believe that they are morally better than the Lannisters or the Mad King, at least.  Yet you are OK with their actions because they’re consistent with prevailing ideas of justice.  

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4 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Tyrion's and Varys' unhappiness about what happened does suggest that in-universe, her treatment of the Tarlys would be viewed as morally questionable.

Well, they remember that burning Lords of an ancient House like that can cause a rebellion.

At the time during S7 I ranted about the whole situation set-up of Tarly even going to Cersei's summons, and then Dany doing exactly the opposite of what she was promising to that miserable leftover army, and nothing seemed to come off it. I still think the whole thing was clunky, but at least D&D showed it was a set-up for Samwell to put it to Jon.

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14 minutes ago, Forlong the Fat said:

I agree.  And I was frustrated with this episode for reasons I couldn’t put my finger on until I gave it some thought.

I think, with 6 episodes left, the premier introduced more complications and conflicts than were really necessary.  On this point, it was inevitable that Jon having a superior claim to Daenerys would introduce some problems.  But do we really need Sam’s feelings about the execution of his father (who he despised and recognized as an evil person anyway) to complicate his relationship with Jon and Daenerys at this point? And do we need that in addition top a Jon, Sansa, Arya conflict about the proper rule of the north> On top of a Tyrion, Jon, Daenerys, Jaime, Cersei conflict about whatever? And a Stark, Glover, Mormont conflict?

It seems to me that it’s time to consolidate a bit more than split with so little story left.  And I am worried it will all play out like Arya Sansa Littlefinger plot last year—if they had spent 5 more minutes on that and established at some point that Arya and Sansa were playing Littlefinger for some time (which seems to be the case but wasn’t established) it would have been much more satisfying, 

 

Maybe its because I had to stay up late to watch it here but it came across to me that it wasn't necessarily the news of his father dying that caused him the greatest upset, he composed himself somewhat to say at least his brother was in charge now and it was news that his brother, who from what I recall in the show was somebody he had demonstrable affection for, that ultimately upset him and caused him to request his leave.

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9 minutes ago, Error-504 said:

Everyone is appalled because of the Sam factor, and then there are those hell-bent on showing Dany is crazy. Fine, then all of westeros is bat-poop crazy as well. Randyll Tarley deserved to die, period. Dickon was just plain stupid, even Randyll wanted him to bend the knee. POW camps did not exist in those days, and though they might take an occasional hostage if he had any strategic value, the soldiers would have been executed had they followed Randyll's lead. The burning saved lives. 

If you're judging by contemporary standards of morality, then yes, the summary burning of two men of rank would be considered bad by other nobles.

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Hey guys !

I saw that no one mentioned this so what do you think of Drogon staring at Jon when he was with Dany ? I thought that maybe it was Bran's doing but I'm not sure.

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1 minute ago, sweetsunray said:

Well, they remember that burning Lords of an ancient House like that can cause a rebellion.

At the time during S7 I ranted about the whole situation set-up of Tarly even going to Cersei's summons, and then Dany doing exactly the opposite of what she was promising to that miserable leftover army, and nothing seemed to come off it. I still think the whole thing was clunky, but at least D&D showed it was a set-up for Samwell to put it to Jon.

Your saying everyone should be in an uproar over the manner of execution. It has been proven that under those conditions, in that time period, most everyone in Dany's position would  have executed Randyll. The argument that beheading is less painful is weak, death is not instantaneous as evryone thinks, rather the fact the vocal cords have been severed not allowing any screams only makes it appear that way. Science has stated that they think (no one has ever volunteered for a study) there would be a period of intense pain for 2-7 seconds, until the brain runs out of oxygen. 

Your also not allowing for the fact that dragon fire is much hotter than normal fire, so it's not like Stannis roasting someone ala barbeque style. The Tarleys died relatively quick. Maybe 7 seconds? So, essentially what your arguing is that Dany's style of execution, because it may last a few more seconds of intense pain, is reason to question her sanity. Randyll Tarley deserved that extra few seconds of pain. 

Ludicrous

Have you ever seen House Bolton's sigil? You know, the flayed man? It didn't stop Robb Stark from allying with the Boltons in the beginning, now did it? Dany showed them more compassion than most. They had two outs. They choose not to take them. 

End of story. 

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