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Sam shouldn't have behaved in this shitty fashion. His father was an ass and he hated him and was afraid of him. Why weep for such a man?

And if one looks at George's rather interesting take on the traditional view of the Night's Watch as represented by Lord Alaric Stark then it is quite clear that there are men not deserving of the black. It is not expected of a stern ruler to allow anyone to take the black - especially not such people who stupidly show defiance in the moment of defeat.

If Balon Greyjoy or Loren Lannister had refused to bend the knee they would have been executed, too. And nobody would have complained about that. People would have to be weaker than Tytos Lannister to grant traitors a third chance after that.

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Posted (edited)

HEY!  GAME OF THRONES IS BACK!

HEY!  I'M BACK!


You know what that means.  The MODIFIED MCSHANE SCORING SYSTEM IS BACK, TOO, and we're gonna ride it all the way through this 6 episode home stretch to determine scientifically just how good the swan song for this series is.


First things first:  Tits?  YES, in the form of Bronn doing Bronn things to remind you Bronn is Bronn.  Dragons?  YES.  So we have potential for a perfect 10 out of 10 episode.


Since Season 8 is re-establishing the show after a 20 month layoff AND it's the climax of the narrataive where all the geographically divergent plot threads finish merging together, I decided the show would be in line for some bonus points if every active [i.e. not plausibly written out/killed off] character made an appearance and 8.1 got really, really close.  Alas, no Pod and no Brie-Brie.  No points off, because this was just a bonus thing, because they still got really close, spiritually fulfilling the idea if not literally, and because no Brienne of Tarth means I don't have to come up with any Captain Phasma jokes this week.


I like when this show lets its cinematography breath.  We follow the journey of a young boy running around and being a little brat who climbs a tree and watches the parade of characters roll into Winterfell.  The tree happens to be near where Arya is standing so our perspective shifts to her as she smiles at all the people she likes (Gendry, Jon) and sneers at the people she doesn't (Sandor).  I do like how the little boy (it's actually Lord Ned Umber, remember him?) and Arya are visibly WTF at all the marching Unsullied because of course they'd have heard of but never seen any before.  NO DIALOGUE at first.  Which turns out to be a good thing as the first words of the new season a couple clunkers of "lol Eunuch" jokes from Tyrion at Varys' expense.  Varys even points out the naked hypocrisy of Tyrion making eunuch jokes while hating drawf jokes.  To which Tyrion responds with another joke about eunuchs not having testicles.  Well, at least it's out of the way.  MINUS ONE QUARTER POINT for the jokes that aren't even that funny. [9.75]


Once everyone who matters is inside Jon hugs his brother who is actually his cousin Bran and Sansa & Dany start exchanging feudal pleasantries to remind everybody we're in a period piece (with dragons) when Dr. Branhattan correctly interrupts and reminds everybody that WE ARE ALL GOING TO DIE unless we stop wasting time with medieval bullshit and focus on surviving personified climate change.  We have a conference scene where little Alys Karstark does a little silent existing, little Ned Umber drives home the whole medieval period piece thing by asking for horses and blah blah de blah so he can go pick up his people, and little Lyana Mormont yells at Jon for being a simp on behalf of all Northerners and Jon reminds everybody for the 83rd time that he [correctly] did this because crowns ain't shit if everybody's dead.  Now I understand and like that one of the central themes of ASOIAF and by extension GOT is that Feudalism Actually Sucks so they do need to belabor the point that people are stuck in the old ways of doing things and old tactics aren't suited to new battlefield realities but I GET IT ALREADY, SHOW.  Minus .5 for beating the drum a little too much. [9.25]


QYBURN shows up to inform Cersei that the army of the dead has breached the wall (you know, given that the wall is 8000 years old you'd think more people would be freaking out about it being destroyed, but whatever), to which Cersei replies GOOD.  I like the efficiency in re-establishing that Cersei is evil, crazy, and dumb.  Pan to the Greyjoy fleet just outside of King's Landing harbor WHERE:
Captain Jack Greyjoy is the worst uncle Yara has ever heard of.  BUT YOU HAVE HEARD OF ME.  Anyway, we get a throwaway reference to Euron's crew all being mutes and the show at least TRIES to lampshade not just killing Yara off (set up oh so artfully by having Yara ask "so why haven't you killed me yet?").  Euron explains that he wants someone to talk to and we get our first obligatory LOL THEON GOT CASTRATED REMEMBER LOL joke of the season.  Euron vows to go fuck the queen.  You WISH you were on Sallador Saan's level, bro.  I really should take more than half a point off for this shit, but I want Asha to live through the series purely because I think she's cool, and this scene keeps that hope alive along with her, so only minus .5. [8.75]


Are you ready for the least Game Of Thronesy name ever that is ironically actually a canonical ASOIAF name?  Say hi to HARRY STRICKLAND.  He will be your waiter this evening at on-screen representation of the Golden Company restaurant.  He explains there will be no elephants because the dragons eat up all the budget ER I MEAN they're too much of a hassle to transport over water even though Hannibal managed the feat just fine much to Republican Rome's chagrin.  Harry Strickland looks like a Jaime Lannister cosplayer and I actually think that's a brilliant little touch.  Cersei and Euron have the same conversation they had 3 or 4 times last season only this time it continues after sex and concludes with a vow to put a prince in Cersei's belly, and we get lingering silence on Cersei's face giving YOU time to remember she told Jaime she was already pregnant last season.  Did they forget?  Did Cersei lie to Jaime about being pregnant?  Is she lying to Euron about not being pregnant?   Does it really matter?  No.  Too long, too redundant, too much making me wish Sallador Saan was still here.  But Strickland being generic store brand Jaime is just too good.  Only minus half a point [8.25]


Bronn does a Bronn thing until Qyburn cockblocks him by showing up to hand him his plot thread for the year [Cersei wants her brothers dead, will pay].  Joffrey's crotchbow makes its return to the show.  The annuled Stokeworth engagment is referenced.  Nothing remarkable about this scene, other than Qyburn tapping into his mad scientist spidey sense and predicting whore #2 will be dead of the pox within a year.  Qyburn is awesome.  I will give this a quarter point for Qyburn's line and for planting the potential for a White Walker Whore complete with Zombie Herpes shambling around in Episode 5.  [8.5]


JON AND ARYA HUGGING IT OUT FOR THE FIRST TIME IN 60 EPISODES GET HYPE.  Arya respects Sansa now.  Jon thinks that's weird but Arya reminds Jon that they're all family and on the same team.  Sorta.


DRAGON RIDING.  Okay this was pretty cool and while the dialogue is dragging behind the other elements of the show ("what if I fall off?"  "Then I have enjoyed your company."  I realize you THINK this is funny, show, but mostly it makes Dany sound like a dick and also I don't buy her being that blase about Jon potentially dying) but this scene does end with them finding a nice secluded spot to engage in Muchas Smoochas and it's good enough that I buy Jon and Dany as mutually horny teenagers.  Maybe they will make me actually feel the love by the end of this thing.


Gendry makes Sandor a Dragonglass Axe.  Gendry is Mr. Dragonglass.  Arya stops in to say hello and anachronistic shit about Gendry knowing one rich girl.  There's a little more to feudal class divides than that, show.  Arya and The Hound snip at each other and exchange begrudging respect.  MINUS ONE QUARTER POINT for breaking my immersion with the rich girl lines. [8.25]


I Used To Be An Extra Like You, Then I Took An Arrow To The Face.  Mystery arrows start dropping fools on Euron's boat and the problem with an all-mute crew - namely, nobody can shout out the alarm - immediately presents itself.  THEON IS FINALLY KICKING SOME ASS.  Took long enough!  While Euron is off trying to fill Sallador Saan's shoes, Theon is in his base, killing his d00dz, and liberating his captive.  Yara headbutts Theon as soon as she's cut free, which really smacks of lazy action movie "punch you then hug you" tripe, but then again these are the Greyjoys and that might just be how they shake hands in that fucked up family.  Also, as far as headbutts go, it was pretty good.  Theon and Yara make a clean getaway and Yara writes herself out of the main plot by explaining she's off to re-take the homeland while Euron's busy getting his dick wet, and justifies it by stating Team Dany will need a fallback point in case Shit Goes Wrong (and let's be real here, Shit is going to go Wrong).  Yara takes one more glance at the script and realizes Theon really wants to go to the sleepover at Jon's house and she gives him leave to do so.  A little disappointed in the lack of a showdown with maybe Theon heroically overcoming some of his trauma long enough to beat Euron's ass, but this DOES conform to a classic ASOIAF theme of thinking with your dick screws you over, as has happened to Euron here.  Theon got to be cool, Yara gets to live, and Theon is off to join the main plot at Winterfell.  I AM HAPPY.  Plus half a point [8.75]


Tyrion and Sansa check the character interaction box, but this is pretty nothing other than making Sansa kinda look like more of a dick than I think she should be and making sure the Lord Royce costume is still in working order.


Jon and Sansa have a chat.  Apparently the Glovers are not coming to the sleepover.  Sansa intimates this is Jon's fault somehow (even though she was already chirping about too many mouths to feed back when Dany's foreign hordes showed up) and implies that Jon bent the knee because he wants to bone Dany which, okay, kinda yeah (and Jon's face totally gives it away that this is part of it).  And Jon reminds her for the 500th time that it's actually because ZOMBIES.  I'm not sure if Sansa is supposed to be Not Quite Getting It because feudalism sucks, or because She Really Liked The Idea Of Being A Queen, or if it's just that they can't get the handle of characterizing someone as A Strong Woman without defaulting to Kinda A Bitch/"badass" dude only with tits.  Which is hardly a problem exclusive to Game of Thrones.  Anyway. WE GET IT, SHOW, Jon and Sansa don't trust each other and people aren't seeing the big undead picture.  I'm taking a full point off because I'm getting annoyed.  [7.75]


Dany, accompanied by Jorah The Fedorah, pops in to say hi to Sam.  Dany thanks Sam for saving Fedorah's life and does the classic feudal "name your reward" thing.  Sam asks for a pardon for all his theiving, including Heartsbane, which leads into an awkward convo where Dany reveals that she killed Sam's dad and bro which is a bit of a bombshell for Sam even though his dad was a total shit.  Family's complicated like that.  And besides Rickon Dickon was a decent enough dude.  Dany does not include the burnination detail.  Sam, tears in his eyes, asks to be excused.  I keep forgetting the name of the actor who plays Sam, which is too bad because I really like him here.  The "I killed your dad.  oh yeah, your brother, too" dialogue between Dany and Sam was good comedy beats, but this was supposed to be drama/tragedy.  So it feels pretty forced and like you can see the nuts and bolts of the stage.  DERP.


Sam runs out crying into the night and of course Dr. Branhattan is there, and he consoles Sam's grief by informing him now would be a good time to tell Jon about his true lineage.  Sam tries to pawn it off on Bran, because Bran is Jon's brother.  Of course, the whole point of this is that strictly speaking he isn't, but whateves.  Bran points out that Jon trusts Sam more (does not point out Sam also has the qualification of being able to walk) and off Sam goes into the crypt to hug it out with Jon.  


Ned Statue!  Sam apologizes for going into the Stark only zone, even though non-Starks pop up here fairly regularly now.  Sam drops the bombshell.  YOUR MOTHER....WEARS COMBAT BOOTS

oh no wait excuse me, typo, YOUR MOTHER WAS LYANNA STARK.  Rhaegar's your dad, Bob's your uncle, you're actually Aegon VI and you might want to go backsies on the whole knee bending thing because you are ahead of Dany in line.  Sam also cites his dead dad and bro as a reason why Jon would actually be better at the whole king thing.  Jon also seemed not to know Dany burnt Sam's family, though I'm not sure why she'd be expected to tell him or why Jon would be particulary bothered by it.  Also one literally asked for it and the other had it coming so while Sam's bias is understandable (and a good plot tension hook going forward, maybe) I'm not sure this is as big a deal as Sam feels it is.  So we got that done.  MINUS 1 POINT for Bran's "he's not my brother" line because he's still your cousin, you pedantic little shit.  MINUS 1 POINT for Dany and Sam having a comedy dialogue exchange in a tragedy scene.  PLUS 1 POINT for Sam's actor being great.  PLUS HALF A POINT for Jon having a good freakout over learning the truth and for getting that reveal out of the way. [7.25]


Next, an instructional video on how to paint your horror movie by the numbers.  Tormund and Beric lead a cautious sweep of a very destroyed looking Last Hearth (complete with torn up Umber banners still hanging so you know) looking for signs of life, of which there are none.  OMG FOOSTEPS EVERYBODY HIDE.  Comedic relief of tension as it turns out to be Edd's crew doing the same thing.  Edd leads Tormund and Beric to the only body they could find, which turns out to be Little Ned Umber, tacked to the wall in the center of a White Walker spiral pattern.  "It's a message from the White Walkers" NO SHIT SHERLOCK BERIC the show wasn't on hiatus for that long, geez, it's been well established over 7 seasons as thing we do.  Anyway, to the surprise of no one, the camera cuts to Tormund at an angle where you can see dead Ned over his shoulder and recognize the facial makeup used for everyone who springs to life as a wight and the dead kid starts screaming and hissing to provide your jump scare at exactly the right time.  People freak out, Beric turns on his flamethrower and stabs the kid with his sword [once is enough with the Omni-Tool!] who immediately catches fire all over, spreading specificaly to the spirals and nothing else.  Inhuman screeching continues until he finishes burning.  MINUS A QUARTER POINT for being a scene for every horror movie ever.  MINUS HALF POINT for Beric's flamethrower sword telling physics to eat a dick.  PLUS HALF A POINT for courageously killing off a little kid.  PLUS A QUARTER POINT for working Edd in and not forgetting about him. [7.25]


THE HOODED MAN comes to Winterfell.  Well that was quick, Theon.  Oh no wait it's JAIME finally showing up, the other guy who damn well better stay incognito when showing up to Winterfell.  Jaime's got some great gray beard action going on that has him looking like Old Man Luke Skywalker in the new Star Wars films.  Of course the first person he makes eye contact with is Bran.  DUN DUN DUN.  and roll credits.


FINAL SCORE:  7.25.


Competent but not mindblowing.  I'm probably being a soft judge here because I'm glad the show's back, also the degree of difficulty is down as they enter the home stretch and they just have to not piss themselves while tying up all the dangling plot threads into one big fuzzy ball of climax.  Whatever. This didn't make me feel like a total fool for waiting 20 months to see and gave me enough good feels that I can say I was content with this episode and I can look past its warts.

Edited by Frances Bean Corbray

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8 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Because Dany herself never even thought of offering that choice. Tyrion mentioned it, and before Dany could even think to formalize that option as an option, Randyll made clear it wouldn't be. So, no, Dany never gave that as third option choice. And when Randyl initially refused to bend the knee, even fore Tyrion opened his mouth abou the NW, Dany's sole alternative was death-by-dragonfire in her own mind. So, spare me the argument of the NW being a third option, when Dany had never even considered it as an option.

And given the fact that she's so against imprisonment and chains because she can only associate that with enslavement right after, when Tyrion argues for her to put Dickon in a cell, I doubt that she would consider NW duty as anything else than another form of enslavement.

 

I think that Daenerys should have fried Lord Tarly and chained Dickon, marched him to Dragonstone and kept him as a hostage for House Tarly's allegiance.  By frying both the lord and heir of the (apparently) only major House left in the Reach, she's driven House Tarly and possibly what's left of the Reach into Cersei's corner.  Or didn't Daenerys know that Randyll left a wife and daughters?

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12 minutes ago, Error-504 said:

Do you really want me to pull out the science behind burns?

Yes, please do. But in the process, make sure it is the science behind burns by direct dragon fire. the point is, it is much hotter than dragon fire, ergo death is much quicker. You can place someone in an oven set to 500 degrees and the death would be excruciating. Put them in the same oven at 5000 degrees, and death will be much quicker. 

1) Not quicker than beheading, since the brains need to be deprived of oxygen just as long

2) The skin is the biggest organ with the most intricate nerve system, which is what is targeted.

But hey, I guess death-by-oven is the most humane form of execution, which is why it's being touted and practiced as such in those present countries who still perform executions.

12 minutes ago, Error-504 said:

And I have already rejected your argument, a one off instance does not prove Dany is like all the other rulers, in all matters. We will find this out next episode with Jamie. 

And I reject that line of argument, because when Dany refers to "breaking-the-wheel" she very much means she wants to change the political power system. She does not change that power system whatsoever by the choices she gave her POW. The only two who actually were doing it differently, never even claimed they were going to break the feudal system - Jon by not demanding it of wildlings and Robb by treating his POW per the Geneva conventions.

12 minutes ago, Error-504 said:

What did show-Randyll Tarly do that made him deserve extra few seconds of pain? Because he hunts? Because he's a bigot about wildlings and Dothraki? Because he looks down on Samwell? Hell, the show made him a more decent man than he is in the books, reminding his sons that his wife deserves respect for talking back to him. And even book-Tarly, while abusive to his son and a mysoginist, is someone who makes sure his men don't get away with raping, stealing or making fun of a naive woman.

Supporting Cersie and backstabbing his liege Lord. At least have the decency to inform the Tyrell's of your intention to break treaty.

So, supporting Cersei and disloyalty to a liege lord deserves torturous death? Nice morals you have. I guess our discussion is over.

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2 minutes ago, Frances Bean Corbray said:

Tits?  YES, in the form of Bronn doing Bronn things to remind you Bronn is Bronn.

I don't think we'll see much more, if any, this season. I saw that scene as a jokey, ironic nod to how the series began. the point's been made and now it's too damn cold for nooky.

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7 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

I agree, they should have stuck with 10 episodes.  That would have given them much more time to make last season, at least less rushed feeling and silly.  And same for this season, more time to let the story breath and give some character beats.  

I don t know if that is the problem. You are forgeting pearls like the winterfell plot last season. More eps of that would have been even worse. Or more eps of danny sitting on dragonstone seeing her allies being defeated.

In order to have a full season I think we would need big changes in the scipts. But that would make D&D work harder...

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1 minute ago, divica said:

I don t know if that is the problem. You are forgeting pearls like the winterfell plot last season. More eps of that would have been even worse. Or more eps of danny sitting on dragonstone seeing her allies being defeated.

In order to have a full season I think we would need big changes in the scipts. But that would make D&D work harder...

Yeah, D&D don’t work hard at all... :rolleyes:

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1 minute ago, divica said:

I don t know if that is the problem. You are forgeting pearls like the winterfell plot last season. More eps of that would have been even worse. Or more eps of danny sitting on dragonstone seeing her allies being defeated.

In order to have a full season I think we would need big changes in the scipts. But that would make D&D work harder...

Its one of the problems, one problem among many.  The show has felt both rushed and full of filler for a few seasons now.  But, at least if they had 10 episodes there is the opportunity to make the time and distance elements less obviously stupid.  An opportunity that the story can feel a little more organic and less contrived. 

The showrunners also, hugely, lack the subtlety of GRRM, this is why they have had to resort to having characters tell the audience the things they want them to know 'Jon and Dany are in love' 'Sansa is smart'.... 

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And to make things very clear... I just think that Dany should stop touting she's going to change the system and be this over-the-rainbow-you-find-unicorns queen. Westeros is not a democracy nor a republic, nor is she vying to be a constitutional monarch of a democracy with a parliament. It is a feudal society and she's vying to be a totalitarian queen over them. In other words she's trying to be what several kings were during the 16th century. For that she needs to have a personal army loyal to her, and not just be dependent on the levies of the lords. And she has. And she will need to be ruthless to anyone opposing her. Everything else is lying to herself.

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46 minutes ago, divica said:

It is obviously stupid that she thought that after she burned the army the surviving soldiers would decide to bend the knee because they believe in her. The world doesn t work that way…

Like it is stupid to not make prisoners or send people to the Wall or get hostages… It just sends the mensage that she isn t that good of a person...

But I think the problem also lies with the show making people uterly stupid and inflexible. What was danny supposed to do with the way randyll reacted? Like why are the northern lords raising so manny probs when danny brought all her armies, dragons and dragonglass north to help save it?

Agreed. D&D manufactured a hamfisted situation.

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4 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

And to make things very clear... I just think that Dany should stop touting she's going to change the system and be this over-the-rainbow-you-find-unicorns queen. Westeros is not a democracy nor a republic, nor is she vying to be a constitutional monarch of a democracy with a parliament. It is a feudal society and she's vying to be a totalitarian queen over them. In other words she's trying to be what several kings were during the 16th century. For that she needs to have a personal army loyal to her, and not just be dependent on the levies of the lords. And she has. And she will need to be ruthless to anyone opposing her. Everything else is lying to herself.

 

Dany should really shut up about breaking the wheel, since she wants to be the Targaryen Queen of Westeros at the top of that same wheel; does she want her own power, should she win, vastly curtailed or her head put on a spike by angry peasants who took her at her word...Yes, it's rather absurd that she is talking about changing the social order while she goes on about everyone bending the knee to her as the true and only ruler of the seven kingdoms.

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Also, can we go back to the "pregnant Cersei" topic? Last season, Tyrion found out Cersei was pregnant because she was not drinking wine and now she clearly is drinking again and seamed a bit sad at the end of her scene. Was this pregnancy just a plot point the show decided not to use anymore or is there more to this?

The show has shown the prophecy where she'll have 3 children in the 3rd or 4th season, so she "couldn't" have any more, if the show is still keeping with prophecies.

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Just now, AndréaV said:

Also, can we go back to the "pregnant Cersei" topic? Last season, Tyrion found out Cersei was pregnant because she was not drinking wine and now she clearly is drinking again and seamed a bit sad at the end of her scene. Was this pregnancy just a plot point the show decided not to use anymore or is there more to this?

The show has shown the prophecy where she'll have 3 children in the 3rd or 4th season, so she "couldn't" have any more, if the show is still keeping with prophecies.

Lannisters Lie.

Lying to Jaime about being pregnant, lying to Euron about not being pregnant.  Either.  Both.  Look that wine isn't going to drink itself. ;)

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3 minutes ago, Frances Bean Corbray said:

Lannisters Lie.

Lying to Jaime about being pregnant, lying to Euron about not being pregnant.  Either.  Both.  Look that wine isn't going to drink itself. ;)

But what was she expecting to get by lying that she is pregnant? Jaime by her side? That's it

 

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46 minutes ago, divica said:

She can t admit that he father was an evil man and then condemn the man that killed him... 

Jaime's trial isn t that great of a test. I am more interested in her reaction to jon's parentage. Even if they just marry the problem would be solved… I have no idea what the fuss will be...

That's exactly the point.  She cannot admit that her father is an evil man and blame Jaime for murdering him.  But she has been raised her entire life to despise Jaime.  The test? Will she be able to temper her feelings and emotions with reason and knowledge?

 

48 minutes ago, Nictarion said:

Because it would be totally in character for her to leave people in need

I get your point, but if she is very upset and angry, she may want to escape, even momentarily.

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15 hours ago, Fire is coming said:

My laptop broke down right when the group rode into the Winterfell yard and then it didn't load again for 11 minutes.. drove me crazy! Will watch those again now, I'm guessing the Jon-Arya reunion took place during those!

Otherwise, I didn't expect Jon to be told who he is already. Sam's reluctance (him "hiding") was probably broken down when he heard that Daenerys burned his father and Dickon.

It looks like Sam is trying undermine Daenerys by trying to make his BFF king. 

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2 minutes ago, AndréaV said:

But what was she expecting to get by lying that she is pregnant? Jaime by her side? That's it

 

And for Tyrion to believe she would send Lannister soldiers. After all Tyrion believes she's a loving mother. Except she isn't, because she shrugged at Tommen jumping out of the window after she blew up the woman he lurved, and called Tommen a traitor.

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1 hour ago, sweetsunray said:

Have you actually read my reply to you. I'm holding Dany's actions then against Dany's speech 5 mins prior to it to the same people. And I pointed out that yes, her first tactic was "running for election". And her speech to her POW was an "election speech" not the "I'm the rightful queen" speech. An election speech isn't an election speech when you burn the men who don't vote for you.

The reason why I do not hold Jon and Sansa to that standard is because they don't give election speeches. They held speeches where they stress their inherited claim. And even if Jon was elected to be LC or KitN, he (nor Sansa) ever pretended to rule for the people. Jon never made such a claim to get elected. And once elected he rules, whether as LC or as KitN, with the feudal power he has.

I just re-watched that scene in case I missed something.  What you're saying just isn't in there.  She said she was going to break the wheel that is Cersei Lannister. And then Tarly said Cersei is his queen and he would not renounce or take the black.  He was exactly what she said she was going to break.

 

And she didn't suggest in any way that she was going to act in a democratic manner. She merely said she was going to be more just than the people in charge now. 

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27 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Sam shouldn't have behaved in this shitty fashion. His father was an ass and he hated him and was afraid of him. Why weep for such a man?

And if one looks at George's rather interesting take on the traditional view of the Night's Watch as represented by Lord Alaric Stark then it is quite clear that there are men not deserving of the black. It is not expected of a stern ruler to allow anyone to take the black - especially not such people who stupidly show defiance in the moment of defeat.

 

How is it shitty for Sam to feel some sadness over his father's and especially his brother's death? Yes, his father was awful to Sam; people with abusive parents still often have complicated feelings for their families, and few react to the death of a father with "yippee!" Especially people as sensitive as Sam. And you can see through his acting in the scene that while the death of his father made him somewhat sad, it was the death of his decent brother that made him angry.

I also don't see how refusing to bend the knee right after a battle where you've just watched all your men be horribly burned to death is indicative of someone not being deserving of taking the black. Like, the Night's Watch accepts the cruellest of criminals in the best of times; at this moment, Dany knows that this is not the best of times, and that the Wall needs capable leaders and warriors. People like the Tarlys are the best possible Night's Watch recruits.

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14 minutes ago, Raksha 2014 said:

 

Dany should really shut up about breaking the wheel, since she wants to be the Targaryen Queen of Westeros at the top of that same wheel; does she want her own power, should she win, vastly curtailed or her head put on a spike by angry peasants who took her at her word...Yes, it's rather absurd that she is talking about changing the social order while she goes on about everyone bending the knee to her as the true and only ruler of the seven kingdoms.

Yup this. So, basically I have issues with show-Dany's PR. Aside from that, if I were to be free to elect a monarch who's the most humane, I'd still argue that of all the kings and queens we've seen in the show so far Robb and Jon are the best rulers, though they're daft at times.

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