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1 hour ago, Ice Queen said:

Tywin said that. I don't think Robert ever did. He valued honesty and bravery and was willing to be merciful as long as his foe had those qualities. 

What do you think Robert would have done with  Randyll Tarly?  He was intransigent, defiant, insulting, and totally disavowed Dany's authority.  And if we know anything about Tarly, it's that he's not the type of person who would change his mind and kneel if you put him in prison for awhile.

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1 hour ago, Ice Queen said:

And then she died, leaving the Tarlys without a liege lord. 

They owe Danaerys nothing. 

That's certainly not true from Dany's point of view.  They swore allegiance to the Targeryans before the rebellion.

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What are the chances we see ghost or nymeria at all this season? Was the elephant comments a nod to the fans wanting more screen time for the DWs?

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3 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Because Dany herself never even thought of offering that choice. Tyrion mentioned it, and before Dany could even think to formalize that option as an option, Randyll made clear it wouldn't be. So, no, Dany never gave that as third option choice. And when Randyl initially refused to bend the knee, even fore Tyrion opened his mouth abou the NW, Dany's sole alternative was death-by-dragonfire in her own mind. So, spare me the argument of the NW being a third option, when Dany had never even considered it as an option.

And given the fact that she's so against imprisonment and chains because she can only associate that with enslavement right after, when Tyrion argues for her to put Dickon in a cell, I doubt that she would consider NW duty as anything else than another form of enslavement.

The fact that Dany didn't initially think of the NW's is irrelevant. That is WHY she has advisors. the look on her face told me she was considering it, but didn't have a chance seeing how Randyll chose to use it to throw more shade at Dany. I will not spare you the argument as the NW being a third option, because it clearly was, like it or not. 

And it is not as if Dany was unaware of the importance of the NW, she was aware of the problems at the wall already. 

Poor Stupid Randyll Tarley. 

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4 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Because Dany herself never even thought of offering that choice. Tyrion mentioned it, and before Dany could even think to formalize that option as an option, Randyll made clear it wouldn't be. So, no, Dany never gave that as third option choice. And when Randyl initially refused to bend the knee, even fore Tyrion opened his mouth abou the NW, Dany's sole alternative was death-by-dragonfire in her own mind. So, spare me the argument of the NW being a third option, when Dany had never even considered it as an option.

And given the fact that she's so against imprisonment and chains because she can only associate that with enslavement right after, when Tyrion argues for her to put Dickon in a cell, I doubt that she would consider NW duty as anything else than another form of enslavement.

How would you have felt it Dany sent Randyll to the wall to serve regardless of his refusal to do so? And if he resfused to serve when at the NW, then the Lord commander of the NW beheaded him? Wouldn't this be better than imprisonment? 

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2 hours ago, Forlong the Fat said:

If you don't understand why someone would be upset that their father and brother were burned alive, and their house was essentially ended, I don't see how we can help you.

 

Yea, thats not what I was getting at at all, but nice assumption. House Tarly still exists through Sam. One would have to assume his mother is still alive, and she'd be the lady of the household. But again, with Sam being among the male line, the House still exists through him...And I personally wouldnt show much care, toward an individual who would care less if I died or not, especially if it's my own father..The thing is, Sam grew up in a world where war, treachery, and all things like it play a dominant role, Daenaerys told him she offered for them to keep their lives by bending the knee, its not like she just killed the two out of spite. It was a war, they lost and refused to become liege lords to a Targaryen queen. Whether its the novels or the show, we know that happens almost after every war, the Houses who fought for the losing side, in the end would switch over. Sam is aware of all of this, he knows when it comes to war there is a winner and a loser, and the losers in most cases in Westeros become casualties of said war. That's simply just how it goes, one would have to think someone growing up in the midst of all that, would perhaps be more understanding to the way his world is. Thats all I'm saying, in a world like the Seven Kingdoms, its simply a bit unrealistic to expect your no-good (towards you) father, and brother to be spared after refusing to bend the knee to the victorious.

Edited by RhaegoTheUnborn

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49 minutes ago, Forlong the Fat said:

What do you think Robert would have done with  Randyll Tarly?  He was intransigent, defiant, insulting, and totally disavowed Dany's authority.  And if we know anything about Tarly, it's that he's not the type of person who would change his mind and kneel if you put him in prison for awhile.

Dany doesn't have a prison and Robert had being male and growing up in Westeros all his life in his favour.  It should also be noted that the decision to allow Jaime Lannister and Balon Greyjoy to keep their heads has retrospectively turned out to be two disasterous decisions!

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2 minutes ago, RhaegoTheUnborn said:

 

Yea, thats not what I was getting at at all, but nice assumption. House Tarly still exists through Sam. One would have to assume his mother is still alive, and she'd be the lady of the household. But again, with Sam being among the male line, the House still exists through him...And I personally wouldnt show much care, toward an individual who would care less if I died or not, especially if it's my own father..The thing is, Sam group up in a world where war, treachery, and all things like it play a dominant role, Daenaerys told him she offered for them to keep their lives by bending the knee, its not like she just killed the two out of spite. It was a war, they lost and refused to become liege lords to a Targaryen queen. Whether its the novels or the show, we know that happens almost after every war, the Houses who fought for the losing side, in the end would switch over. Sam is aware of all of this, he knows when it comes to war there is a winner and a loser, and the losers in most cases in Westeros become casualties of said war. That's simply just how it goes, one would have to think someone growing up in the midst of all that, would perhaps be more understanding to the way his world is. Thats all I'm saying, in a world like the Seven Kingdoms, its simply a bit unrealistic to expect your no-good (towards you) father, and brother to be spared after refusing to bend the knee to the victorious.

She didn't even give them a clean death, which would have been beheading or hanging.  She burned them alive.  That is barbaric even by Westerosi standards.  She certainly would have cemented the idea that she's a savage barbarian queen who doesn't belong in Westeros with that action.

 

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1 minute ago, Cas Stark said:

She didn't even give them a clean death, which would have been beheading or hanging.  She burned them alive.  That is barbaric even by Westerosi standards.  She certainly would have cemented the idea that she's a savage barbarian queen who doesn't belong in Westeros with that action.

 

 

 

But Stannis did it all the time, and certain Westerosi houses were still willing to back him..Whats the difference?

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Just now, Cas Stark said:

She didn't even give them a clean death, which would have been beheading or hanging.  She burned them alive.  That is barbaric even by Westerosi standards.  She certainly would have cemented the idea that she's a savage barbarian queen who doesn't belong in Westeros with that action.

 

Nothing clean about hanging.  A horrible way to go!

Randyll was to blame for Dickon's death.  He should have commanded Dickon to bend the knee.

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Just now, Ser Gareth said:

Nothing clean about hanging.  A horrible way to go!

Randyll was to blame for Dickon's death.  He should have commanded Dickon to bend the knee.

 

 

I was about to say that too, how is a hanging a clean death for anyone?

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3 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

And to make things very clear... I just think that Dany should stop touting she's going to change the system and be this over-the-rainbow-you-find-unicorns queen. Westeros is not a democracy nor a republic, nor is she vying to be a constitutional monarch of a democracy with a parliament. It is a feudal society and she's vying to be a totalitarian queen over them. In other words she's trying to be what several kings were during the 16th century. For that she needs to have a personal army loyal to her, and not just be dependent on the levies of the lords. And she has. And she will need to be ruthless to anyone opposing her. Everything else is lying to herself.

Well, no, that's your definition of breaking the wheel. Doesn't make it Dany's definition. In dany's mind she can still be a queen in a feudal society, as long as she is a good just queen, and looks out for the little people. Your saying because Dany doesn't meet your definitions of breaking the wheel, she is a hypocrite. That's just poor logic. 

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7 minutes ago, Error-504 said:

The fact that Dany didn't initially think of the NW's is irrelevant. That is WHY she has advisors. the look on her face told me she was considering it, but didn't have a chance seeing how Randyll chose to use it to throw more shade at Dany. I will not spare you the argument as the NW being a third option, because it clearly was, like it or not. 

And it is not as if Dany was unaware of the importance of the NW, she was aware of the problems at the wall already. 

Poor Stupid Randyll Tarley. 

It's not irrelevant. It shows Dany had no plan whatsoever what to do with POW before she even went into the battle. She claims to be a more just ruler, but decides stuff as she goes along, without thinking ahead, pretty much as she did in Mereen. Remind me why Mereen was such a disaster and Dany hasn't learned much of it. IIRC she was going to be a just ruler in Mereen and execute a freed slave, only to make people turn against her even more.

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1 minute ago, Cas Stark said:

She didn't even give them a clean death, which would have been beheading or hanging.  She burned them alive.  That is barbaric even by Westerosi standards.  She certainly would have cemented the idea that she's a savage barbarian queen who doesn't belong in Westeros with that action.

Is Aegon the Conqueror ever presented as savage or barbarian for torching Harrenhal?

I don't recall any such talk in either books or show.

And nobody in the show - especially not Sam - complained about the manner of the death of the Tarlys, no?

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3 minutes ago, RhaegoTheUnborn said:

 

 

But Stannis did it all the time, and certain Westerosi houses were still willing to back him..Whats the difference?

He lost almost all of his army after he burned his daughter alive, didn't he?

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4 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

1) Not quicker than beheading, since the brains need to be deprived of oxygen just as long

2) The skin is the biggest organ with the most intricate nerve system, which is what is targeted.

But hey, I guess death-by-oven is the most humane form of execution, which is why it's being touted and practiced as such in those present countries who still perform executions.

And I reject that line of argument, because when Dany refers to "breaking-the-wheel" she very much means she wants to change the political power system. She does not change that power system whatsoever by the choices she gave her POW. The only two who actually were doing it differently, never even claimed they were going to break the feudal system - Jon by not demanding it of wildlings and Robb by treating his POW per the Geneva conventions.

So, supporting Cersei and disloyalty to a liege lord deserves torturous death? Nice morals you have. I guess our discussion is over.

It deserves death. Tortuous is a term your applying to the manor in which Randyll was executed, In my mind, all death is tortuous to an extent, You just seem hell bent on drawing a line in the sand in which manor is too tortuous. I reject that line. 

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2 minutes ago, Error-504 said:

Well, no, that's your definition of breaking the wheel. Doesn't make it Dany's definition. In dany's mind she can still be a queen in a feudal society, as long as she is a good just queen, and looks out for the little people. Your saying because Dany doesn't meet your definitions of breaking the wheel, she is a hypocrite. That's just poor logic. 

That's not breaking the wheel though, that is being a benevolent absolute ruler.  That is keeping the wheel with Dany on top,unless she intends to execute all the nobles throughout Westeros so there can never be anyone to challenge her rule, in which case the wheel would be fairly well broken.

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9 minutes ago, Error-504 said:

How would you have felt it Dany sent Randyll to the wall to serve regardless of his refusal to do so? And if he resfused to serve when at the NW, then the Lord commander of the NW beheaded him? Wouldn't this be better than imprisonment? 

She can't make Randyl take the vows, as that is of his own choice, regardless. Imprisonment was imo the most prudent choice by Dany, if she wants to win the hearts of lords.

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2 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Is Aegon the Conqueror ever presented as savage or barbarian for torching Harrenhal?

I don't recall any such talk in either books or show.

And nobody in the show - especially not Sam - complained about the manner of the death of the Tarlys, no?

Cersei and the Tarlys have both in the show spoken about her like she is a barbarian, with her savage Dothraki and her other foreigners.  

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