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Hi,  I feel that this episode was a bit disappointing in that there was little new information.  It was interesting to see how some characters reacted to info that we knew (e.g. Sam Tarly, "Jon Snow", Bran's insight that the KK had breached the Wall).  

I did not see Sam taking the death of Dickon so hard, for one thing.  Nor did I think he would be surprised that he stood by his father in his allegiance to Queen Cersei.  

Speaking of Sam, I do hope that one of the books he took from the Citadel was the High Septon's diary that described annulling Rhaegar's former marriage and new one to Lady Lyanna.  I think that Jon (or someone else) is going to converse with Dany about this, but beyond Bran's visions, what hard evidence would anyone have?  Even a transcribed diary is dubious evidence at best.

So, not much new information except for the current position of the WW, and interesting to see the reactions of characters to information we've known for 1.5 years.  

Looking forward to more!  Cheers!

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Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, Error-504 said:

None of the Tarlies tried to kill her. They took Higharden with the Lannisters. Neither Dany herself or Dragonstone was attacked. Dany's the attacker here.

I haven't even read the rest of your post yet, but this is a complete load of crap. An attack on your ally (the Tyrells) is an attack on you. End of story. Period. No discussion here. It speaks volumes to your understanding of war. At best, Dany's response is a counter-attack. 

Because "bending the knee" demand comes with the alternative, execution, classically, and because she demands loyalty of people in a war that is not yet concluded. She won 1 battle, and she has an empty Casterly Rock and Westerlands, no Dorne, no fleet, and a weakened Reach up for the grabs. She cannot trust the "bend the knee" in such a situation, and thus has to leave the Dothraki there to occupy the Reach anyway, depleting her own defences at Dragonstone.

It's common knowledge she (Dany) could end the war whenever she wanted to. More mis-understanding on your part. She doesn't have to leave the Dothraki there for anything, as Cersei cannot afford the forces to occupy the Reach with Dany at KL's doorstep. (you have to remember, this is before Dany committed to going North). Her refusal to do a direct assault on KL is further proof she is not like the others, as you want to make her out to be. (major oops on your part). The one thing that would take up a lot of time and resources is starting some POW camps. You brought up dungeons in dragon-stone. I highly doubt they are capable of holding 100's if not thousands of prisoners. BTW, I wonder how many live Tyrell soldiers the combined lannister/Tarley forces left behind? Or didn't you consider that? 

Now how does Dany "help the people" by demanding it of these men to bend the knee at the spot in the military strategic situation. She doesn't, nor does she have to reap the repercussions for it.

They are still alive, it's really not that hard to understand. 

Incarcerated enemies she might hope to win over though is an entirely different situation. Sure, she still needs to leave the Dothraki to occupy the Reach, meanwhile she has "hostages" to keep their families in check, and Cersei has no pretext to avenge herself on them. Once, the military situation is more to Dany's benefit, that is the time she can ask them to bend the knee for her, and likely would. It's done all the time throughout history. And no "allowing captives to live without swithcing sides" is not unwise.

Alliances changing sides during war happens all the time, do I need to point out when it has happened in history for you? Russia? Italy? 

Incarceration and occupation is a huge drain on a military. It's not a feasible option for Dany, regardless of how you might feel about the morality of it all. 

 

Its funny because some people seem to be thinking abut modern times only. In a medieval world, which ASOIAF is also based on, an attack on your allies or "liege lords" is an attack on you. People should know this by now, but think some strictly avoid it for the sake of arguing.

Edited by RhaegoTheUnborn

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1 hour ago, LadyNoOne said:

I think that Jon (or someone else) is going to converse with Dany about this, but beyond Bran's visions, what hard evidence would anyone have?  Even a transcribed diary is dubious evidence at best.
 

It's kind of irrelevant. The world has moved on. The throne was taken from the Targaryens by force. It wasn't just a case of there being no living issue to continue the line. Similarly if Daenerys were to ascend to the throne then it would be hers as it is not currently "belonging" to the Targaryen line. She would be starting anew rather than reverting to her brother's lineage.

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1 minute ago, Holymoly said:

It's kind of irrelevant. The world has moved on. The throne was taken from the Targaryens by force. It wasn't just a case of there being no living issue to continue the line. Similarly if Daenerys were to ascend to the throne then it would be hers as it is not currently "belonging" to the Targaryen line. She would be starting anew rather than reverting to her brother's lineage.

Hi, I meant it was an issue for Jon and Dany's romantic relationship, at least.  Frankly, I think Dany will take it as more of a threat than Jon ever would. 

Clearly, the succession has moved on as you point out. 

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1 minute ago, LadyNoOne said:

Hi, I meant it was an issue for Jon and Dany's romantic relationship, at least.  Frankly, I think Dany will take it as more of a threat than Jon ever would. 

Clearly, the succession has moved on as you point out. 

GoT is certainly incest by degrees.

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Posted (edited)
18 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

You asked for an example of people speaking about her like she's a barbarian invader and I gave them to you.  All you had to do was look at the looks on the faces of the Northerners to see that they, too, think she's a foreigner bringing with her a horde of foreign invaders. 

Dude are you serious? The show has made it clear over and over again that the North is like that towards ALL outsiders, hell Jon even says that to Daenaerys when their riding through the streets going toward Winterfell. Its not just her....So thats some what of a moot point, the Northerners not being trustworthy of Outsiders isnt a reflection of Daenaenarys being a barbarian or feeling shes barbaric based on what shes done. Thats just how the North is, untrusting of outsiders.

 

In the case of Sansa and some of the other liege lords who were around when Rickard went to Kings Landing, they dont dislike Dany because shes barbaric. They arent fond of her strictly because of who her father is, and fearing she'd be going down the same path.

Edited by RhaegoTheUnborn

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3 hours ago, Gala said:

Agree. Maybe that's why she wants both her brothers dead?
I do not understand why she would order to kill them. I am confused.

Because they both knew she was pregnant long before she slept with Euron.  Jaime would have a problem with her telling everyone that it’s Eurons.  Cersei knows what would happen if the truth came out.  The people would turn against her and she would lose her throne and crown.  Cersei is all about power, proving that she is better than all the men in her family.  This also includes Tywin, she is telling her father that he picked the wrong child, that it shouldn’t have mattered that she is a woman.  Qyburn would never reveal the secret for the same reason, he went from disgraced ex-Maester To Hand of the Queen.

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On 4/15/2019 at 2:56 AM, Danelle said:

When she confronted Randyll Tarly, the man was defeated and had nothing. On the other hand, she was victorious, she had an army and her dragons. Tyrion's proposal was sensible and even Randyll seemed to agree yet Dany chose to give them both to her dragons. Dickon's life might have been spared at least. 

Think of how Joffrey's decision affected his reign. He chose to have Ned Stark executed and had every reason to do so. Ned openly defied Joffrey and told him that he had no claim to the throne. Not only that but he intended to arrest him. 

Had Joffrey shown mercy and spared Ned, the situation with the Starks would have been somewhat less difficult, not to mention that the Starks held Jaime hostage.

Mercy is not always synonym to weakness. Sometimes it could be a sign of diplomatic attitude. 

Randyll Tarly did not agree. He refused to take the black.

Rewatch the episode. He went on a little racist tirade before he was executed.

Dickon's life should have been spared yes. But if he insisted on dying (which he did), well....

Joffrey's situation was completely different. Joffrey had suffered a crushing defeat, lost a prized commander and was surrounded by enemies: Robb's Tully-Stark (and, as far as they were concerned, Arryn) coalition to the north and the northwest, Renly and the Tyrells from the southwest, Stannis from the east. To be honest, King Aerys was in a better position than what Joffrey was in and Aerys had half of the Seven Kingdoms rebel against him.

Showing mercy was not only noble but it was also was in his best interest that he deal with Ned Stark gently. Joffrey was so much of an idiot that he was incapable of selfishly acting in his own best interest.

Apples and oranges.

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1 hour ago, LadyNoOne said:

but beyond Bran's visions, what hard evidence would anyone have?  Even a transcribed diary is dubious evidence at best.

Howland Reed (father of Meera) was with Ned Stark when he recovered Lyanna's baby (i.e., Jon Snow) from the Tower of Joy.  Presumably Howland is still alive and in the north, since Meera mentioned going to see him when she came back from beyond the wall.  One would expect that he and Meera would now be at Winterfell, although neither he nor Meera have been shown to us there.  But he could give his eye-witness testimony about Jon being the son of Lyanna Stark.

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9 minutes ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

Randyll Tarly did not agree. He refused to take the black.

Rewatch the episode. He went on a little racist tirade before he was executed.

Dickon's life should have been spared yes. But if he insisted on dying (which he did), well....

Joffrey's situation was completely different. Joffrey had suffered a crushing defeat, lost a prized commander and was surrounded by enemies: Robb's Tully-Stark (and, as far as they were concerned, Arryn) coalition to the north and the northwest, Renly and the Tyrells from the southwest, Stannis from the east. To be honest, King Aerys was in a better position than what Joffrey was in and Aerys had half of the Seven Kingdoms rebel against him.

Showing mercy was not only noble but it was also was in his best interest that he deal with Ned Stark gently. Joffrey was so much of an idiot that he was incapable of selfishly acting in his own best interest.

Apples and oranges.

 Exactly. Good post.

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1 minute ago, McAssey said:

One would expect that he and Meera would now be at Winterfell

I doubt it. The Neck would be an ideal place to hide out in as the undead would struggle to cross the marshland. If they did move, the Crannogmen would likely relocate to the God's Eye.

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1 minute ago, House Cambodia said:

I doubt it. The Neck would be an ideal place to hide out in as the undead would struggle to cross the marshland. If they did move, the Crannogmen would likely relocate to the God's Eye.

True.  But now that winter has come Winterfell is where many of the northerners have gathered.  In any case, if Bran would tell Jon to summon Howland Reed to verify the truth about his parentage, he would get the hard evidence that is needed.

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3 hours ago, Gala said:

Agree. Maybe that's why she wants both her brothers dead?
I do not understand why she would order to kill them. I am confused.

There is the possibility Qyburn has started to betray her for Euron or the GC and lied that the order came from Cersei, but it sounds ridiculously unlikely for him to do so. I agree it makes little sense, but it might be because she now wants them out of the picture now that she wants to make Euron "the father".

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Okay, now that it's clear that no one really cares about the Tarlys or Cersei, let's get down to the core of the issue.

For the record, I think Daenerys will be absolutely ruthless AND frightening by the time she comes to Westeros in the books. In these last two books, Daenerys is going to have more in common with Magneto than Wonder Woman. She's shaping up to be a rather nasty anti-villain (notice how I said anti-villain and not villain, more on that later)

Think about it. She's not going to win the unwavering loyalty of the Dothraki by being clever and politically astute. This isn't an area of the world or a culture where Sansa, Cersei, Littlefinger or even Tywin have a chance of being the powerhouses they are or will be. Not only does she have to be tough, clever and fierce but Daenerys has to be a winner and she has to be physically strong...probably moreso given the fact that she is a woman. To anyone who isn't Dothraki or already blindly loyal to her, Daenerys is going to be a nightmare.

That's why I think the epilogue of Winds will be an Illyrio POV who is coming face-to-face with the all-new, all-different Daenerys.

Can we blame her? When it comes to the whole game of thrones, Daenerys has already "been there, done that, bought a T-shirt." Not only did it almost killed her, it almost destroyed everything she had worked so very hard fort. That's the whole point of Meereen. The whole point of Meereen was to organically get Daenerys to the point where she won't even try to play the game and rule Westeros the way everyone (both the characters and the audience) expect her to rule. If she even bothers with ruling, she'll do it her way on her terms. That's what Daenerys has done since the very beginning of the story -- do the exact opposite of what everyone (both characters and audiences) wants and expects her to do, rock the boat/break the wheel and not give too much of a f*** while doing it.

Yeah, it's borderline villainous but it's what I like about her. But more on that later.

On top of that, look at who will likely be accompanying Daenerys.

If Daenerys has "been there, done that, bought a T-shirt," Tyrion has written books and taught several graduating classes on the subject. While Tyrion loves to play the game, he is not going to be in the mood to play it with kids' gloves on. Tyrion is a borderline sociopolitical genius but he completely low-balled himself the first time around. He won't make that mistake again. Plus, Tyrion has some very old, very personal grievances with the Westerosi nobility. By the time it's time to head to Westeros, Tyrion will be playing for the one-man team known as Team Tyrion: everyone else -- including Daenerys -- is an enemy, a pawn, a doormat or both.

Also who is likely to be right at Daenerys' side is Victarion. And anyone who knows anything knows that Victarion and the previous generations of Ironborn don't care anything about titles and thrones. They have a belief system that is almost contrary to everything on the mainland. They just want to reave and raid. They are very similar to the Dothraki in this regard. And then there's the fact that the god they believe in is probably an evil Lovecraftian being of some sorts that will end up f****ng the survivors up after everything is said and done. 

Now to the core of the issue. An anti-villain is the opposite of an anti-hero. While an anti-hero is someone who fights alongside "the good guys" but has some very questionable, if not villainous, methods that are very different from those his comrades, an anti-villain is someone who antagonizes "the good guys" but has heroic goals and a charismatic, noble character.

In light of all of the problems Robert, Littlefinger and Cersei caused and the future problems that Euron, the Others and even Aegon are going to cause, Daenerys is likely to going to feel that setting the entire continent on fire, burning it clean and starting all over is a viable option. And, as scary as that sounds, I don't think it's that bad of an idea...especially if the continent is overrun with a greyscale plague, zombies big and small, ice demons, man-eating spiders, mad scientists, sleazeball war criminals and religious zealots. But this obviously is going to ruffle a lot of feathers.

The characters have found themselves in places that they have not earned and it's inorganic. People who are so against Daenerys' execution of defiant backstabbers are sensing that this is where Daenerys is supposed to be but it rings hollow because it's not that big of a deal...because we're talking about defiant backstabbers who willfully aligned themselves with an evil hypocritical wretch of a woman. Who cares if they are executed? Bend the knee and join me or die. That's how everyone operates in this world. From Aegon the Conqueror and his sisters to Ned Stark to Khal Drogo. If they refuse to help me break the wheel, they are part of the wheel and must be broken.

The end.

Yes, keeping Dickon alive (whatever his wishes) makes political sense. But Daenerys -- at this point of the story -- is supposed to be apolitical. A foil of the Others. Except she's not. So what we have is a jumbled mess of a story. According to what's happened in the show, there's no reason for audiences to be upset with Daenerys. Look at Jon.

Jon Snow gives multiple chances to a defiant, disrespectful subordinate...the man is executed. Jon Snow shows mercy to those undeserving and fails to properly deal with signs of mutiny within his ranks...Jon Snow dies. Jon Snow executes the defiant, oathbreaking backstabbers who killed him and threatened the lives of those who actually kept their oaths. Who complains about that?

But the showrunners are writing the show (or allowing the show to be written) as if Daenerys has earned her position as the common enemy of everyone south of the Neck who isn't threatened by the Others. As if she poses a enough threat to the status quo to make lords like Randyll Tarly throw in with someone as sketch as Cersei Lannister. Worse, people are buying into it....EVEN THOUGH IT HASN'T EVEN BEEN SHOWN OR TALKED ABOUT.

The fact that she has foreign soldiers fighting for her should not matter. Cersei was born in Westeros and has foreign soldiers fighting for her on Westerosi soil. Dany was born on Dragonstone which is a part of Westeros...she would have continued living in Westeros if she was allowed to do so. Dany returning to Westeros to reclaim her birthright is no different from the Starks returning to Winterfell and reclaiming theirs.

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Late to the party, but... that was an okay episode. Very predictable from everything we've seen before, but hey, at least we've got all the inevitable beats out of the way now.

My favorite moment, which weirdly nobody has mentioned yet, was the little "show me yours I'll show you mine" scene between Arya and Jon in the Godswood. Bonding over weapons... just like Arya and Gendry, come to think of it.

So the next episode will have the battle of Winterfell, I suppose... but other than that, I'm really seriously hoping for more surprises and new developments there, rather than just picking up the strands left hanging by the last season. (I felt the same about season 7's first episode, though, and there the next one sure delivered.)

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2 hours ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

Okay, now that it's clear that no one really cares about the Tarlys or Cersei, let's get down to the core of the issue.

For the record, I think Daenerys will be absolutely ruthless AND frightening by the time she comes to Westeros in the books. In these last two books, Daenerys is going to have more in common with Magneto than Wonder Woman. She's shaping up to be a rather nasty anti-villain (notice how I said anti-villain and not villain, more on that later)

Think about it. She's not going to win the unwavering loyalty of the Dothraki by being clever and politically astute. This isn't an area of the world or a culture where Sansa, Cersei, Littlefinger or even Tywin have a chance of being the powerhouses they are or will be. Not only does she have to be tough, clever and fierce but Daenerys has to be a winner and she has to be physically strong...probably moreso given the fact that she is a woman. To anyone who isn't Dothraki or already blindly loyal to her, Daenerys is going to be a nightmare.

That's why I think the epilogue of Winds will be an Illyrio POV who is coming face-to-face with the all-new, all-different Daenerys.

Can we blame her? When it comes to the whole game of thrones, Daenerys has already "been there, done that, bought a T-shirt." Not only did it almost killed her, it almost destroyed everything she had worked so very hard fort. That's the whole point of Meereen. The whole point of Meereen was to organically get Daenerys to the point where she won't even try to play the game and rule Westeros the way everyone (both the characters and the audience) expect her to rule. If she even bothers with ruling, she'll do it her way on her terms. That's what Daenerys has done since the very beginning of the story -- do the exact opposite of what everyone (both characters and audiences) wants and expects her to do, rock the boat/break the wheel and not give too much of a f*** while doing it.

Yeah, it's borderline villainous but it's what I like about her. But more on that later.

On top of that, look at who will likely be accompanying Daenerys.

If Daenerys has "been there, done that, bought a T-shirt," Tyrion has written books and taught several graduating classes on the subject. While Tyrion loves to play the game, he is not going to be in the mood to play it with kids' gloves on. Tyrion is a borderline sociopolitical genius but he completely low-balled himself the first time around. He won't make that mistake again. Plus, Tyrion has some very old, very personal grievances with the Westerosi nobility. By the time it's time to head to Westeros, Tyrion will be playing for the one-man team known as Team Tyrion: everyone else -- including Daenerys -- is an enemy, a pawn, a doormat or both.

Also who is likely to be right at Daenerys' side is Victarion. And anyone who knows anything knows that Victarion and the previous generations of Ironborn don't care anything about titles and thrones. They have a belief system that is almost contrary to everything on the mainland. They just want to reave and raid. They are very similar to the Dothraki in this regard. And then there's the fact that the god they believe in is probably an evil Lovecraftian being of some sorts that will end up f****ng the survivors up after everything is said and done. 

Now to the core of the issue. An anti-villain is the opposite of an anti-hero. While an anti-hero is someone who fights alongside "the good guys" but has some very questionable, if not villainous, methods that are very different from those his comrades, an anti-villain is someone who antagonizes "the good guys" but has heroic goals and a charismatic, noble character.

In light of all of the problems Robert, Littlefinger and Cersei caused and the future problems that Euron, the Others and even Aegon are going to cause, Daenerys is likely to going to feel that setting the entire continent on fire, burning it clean and starting all over is a viable option. And, as scary as that sounds, I don't think it's that bad of an idea...especially if the continent is overrun with a greyscale plague, zombies big and small, ice demons, man-eating spiders, mad scientists, sleazeball war criminals and religious zealots. But this obviously is going to ruffle a lot of feathers.

The characters have found themselves in places that they have not earned and it's inorganic. People who are so against Daenerys' execution of defiant backstabbers are sensing that this is where Daenerys is supposed to be but it rings hollow because it's not that big of a deal...because we're talking about defiant backstabbers who willfully aligned themselves with an evil hypocritical wretch of a woman. Who cares if they are executed? Bend the knee and join me or die. That's how everyone operates in this world. From Aegon the Conqueror and his sisters to Ned Stark to Khal Drogo. If they refuse to help me break the wheel, they are part of the wheel and must be broken.

The end.

Yes, keeping Dickon alive (whatever his wishes) makes political sense. But Daenerys -- at this point of the story -- is supposed to be apolitical. A foil of the Others. Except she's not. So what we have is a jumbled mess of a story. According to what's happened in the show, there's no reason for audiences to be upset with Daenerys. Look at Jon.

Jon Snow gives multiple chances to a defiant, disrespectful subordinate...the man is executed. Jon Snow shows mercy to those undeserving and fails to properly deal with signs of mutiny within his ranks...Jon Snow dies. Jon Snow executes the defiant, oathbreaking backstabbers who killed him and threatened the lives of those who actually kept their oaths. Who complains about that?

But the showrunners are writing the show (or allowing the show to be written) as if Daenerys has earned her position as the common enemy of everyone south of the Neck who isn't threatened by the Others. As if she poses a enough threat to the status quo to make lords like Randyll Tarly throw in with someone as sketch as Cersei Lannister. Worse, people are buying into it....EVEN THOUGH IT HASN'T EVEN BEEN SHOWN OR TALKED ABOUT.

The fact that she has foreign soldiers fighting for her should not matter. Cersei was born in Westeros and has foreign soldiers fighting for her on Westerosi soil. Dany was born on Dragonstone which is a part of Westeros...she would have continued living in Westeros if she was allowed to do so. Dany returning to Westeros to reclaim her birthright is no different from the Starks returning to Winterfell and reclaiming theirs.

While I agree that Cersei's base of power is not adequately explained, you are jumping over something pretty major here. The Dothraki have been feared "savages" in Westeros for a very long time. Robert referenced this all the way back in season one. Ned acknowledged them as a threat but thought they would never cross the sea. Randyll Tarly's aversion to Dothraki (and all "savages" for that matter) was explained and didn't come from nowhere.

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3 hours ago, McAssey said:

Howland Reed (father of Meera) was with Ned Stark when he recovered Lyanna's baby (i.e., Jon Snow) from the Tower of Joy.  Presumably Howland is still alive and in the north, since Meera mentioned going to see him when she came back from beyond the wall.  One would expect that he and Meera would now be at Winterfell, although neither he nor Meera have been shown to us there.  But he could give his eye-witness testimony about Jon being the son of Lyanna Stark.

And the 3ER made a point of identifying Howland in the first ToJ vision -I think that's significant.  He's been mentioned in the series several times now, so the odds are good of his making an appearance for additional confirmation which comes from a respected northern lord and loyal Stark bannerman.  The other lords may fall in line if he publicly vouches for Jon's true identity and parentage. 

While Sansa had the bannermen "retreat" to Winterfell from the approaching AotD,  Reed's stronghold at Greywater Watch is far south in the The Neck, out of their path.  Also Reed's warriors are mostly Crannogmen who fight with guerrilla tactics in the swamps, so I don't see them marching up to Winterfell.  I can see Winterfell falling though, and the survivors retreating to Moat Cailin or to Greywater Watch where the Crannogmen can fight more effectively.

Retreating to The Neck makes strategic sense because the continent narrows here forming a more defensible bottleneck,  Making a stand here would also open the possibilities of receiving rapid reinforcements from the Vale and the Riverlands -- if Edmure Tully can muster up a force in time.

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, House Cambodia said:

I doubt it. The Neck would be an ideal place to hide out in as the undead would struggle to cross the marshland. If they did move, the Crannogmen would likely relocate to the God's Eye.

While I like the idea of a battle here, I'm unsure of the terrain advantage because of the weather and perhaps the Night King's mysterious abilities.  If the swamps freeze they won't be much of a hindrance to the marching Dead.

Edited by Astrotherapist

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It was great to see everyone reunited but some of the interactions were so flat this episode which is strange because Sam got a really emotional scene. It was mentioned here before that characters just spit one liners back and forth at each other and its so noticeable this episode. It was so unbelievable that Jon and Arya would meet up and not talk about Eddard, Catelyn, Robb and Bran. Like last seasons where Davos went to Dragonstone and note a single word about Stannis, Shireen or how the castle he spent years in was now abandoned and his King dead. I wish the show would humanise the characters more but thats a complaint I have about 95% of TV/films. They don't act like people would act in those situations. 

 

 

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