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16 hours ago, Error-504 said:

The former slaves of marreen would like to have a word with you. 

I bet they would, since they are not used to question her decision. That's what I was trying to say: it is easy to free the slaves, who are just becoming free people with free will, and rule them, the other thing is to rule those who were free and whom you are not freeing, but rather otherwise- conquering. She does not understand that...I mean at all.

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3 hours ago, Gala said:

I bet they would, since they are not used to question her decision. That's what I was trying to say: it is easy to free the slaves, who are just becoming free people with free will, and rule them, the other thing is to rule those who were free and whom you are not freeing, but rather otherwise- conquering. She does not understand that...I mean at all.

You really don't understand context. The bolded section was to what my post was referring to, that Dany was unfit to rule. Do you think the citizens of mareen would agree with this? 

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3 hours ago, Gala said:

So...it was you who brought up Jaime to this discussion. I still do not understand what Jaime and his history with Bran have anything to do with this discussion. Yes, I am speculating and that's why I wrote "personally" at least few time, if you haven't noticed. Let's just wait and see who is right. 

Ok, I will get my crayons out.

You said Bran most likely wouldn't like Dany. Basd on what exactly. I used jamie as a reference to show that Bran is capable of looking past quite a bit if he sees good in a person. that is why I brought up Jamie. I am sayinig, if bran can like jamie, he most certainly can like Dany. It's not like Bran is going to concern himself with personality. 

3 hours ago, Gala said:

I am not discussing Jaime's heinous crimes (among them one which is actually heroic - slaying the Mad King) and certainly not comparing them to Dany's, that's absurd. One thing Jaime lacks - hunger to power, which both Dany and Cersei have, so comparing them would be more logical and appropriate. Additionally, Dany has no history with Bran at all. I definitely didn't use words like "condemn" when I talked about Bran and Dany.

 

Oy Vey. 

3 hours ago, Gala said:

Once again...Sansa was not obliged to do more than curtesy requires and she wasn't obliged "to fell blindly in love" with Dany on the spot, while Dany was actually expecting her to. Yes, after Dany's reaction - sort of "wtf" look on Dany's face after Sansa's cold curtesy- he broke the conversation and addressed directly Dany, because that was she who should have heard about dead dragon.  

And by the way, it was you who "said something about Sansa" and I just addressed your post, go and re-read.

Understanding context is everything. I said nothing about Sansa in specific. I said Bran though looking at Dany, was addressing everyone in the room. That included Sansa, last I checked. 

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Posted (edited)
21 hours ago, MinscS2 said:

@Error-504 Just a heads up.

Krishtotter compared Daenerys to, among others, Stalin, Pol Pot and Mao Zedong in a different thread. 
When Called out on it, he instead quoted half an essay on why Daenerys is like Robespierre. 

Don't bother. Some people will never see eye to eye, so it's best to just move on.


 

Actually, from the very first post in that thread, I referred to Daenerys as "Robespierran-style" and have always said that he is the best historical personage with which to compare her.

I invite you to go back and check. Here's the proof from my OP: 

 

Quote

 

This descent into Robespierre-style idealistic tyranny, reached a nadir last season when Dany burned the Tarlys - a father and son - to death, without first giving them a trial or attempting to remonstrate with by means of reason and discussion. She also threatened to burn Varys alive. And yet, Dany has still exhibited selflessness - for instance by finally allying herself with Jon's cause and making 'peace' with the machiavellian Cersei to fight the Night King, thus putting her lifelong ambitions for the throne on hold for the greater good of the people she intends to rule. 

And yet, the moral regression - of a kind - is still unmissable. 

 

 

Robespierre was my first and main comparative example from real world history. And I remain convinced that she is like him.

The others all followed in Robespierre's wake, as instigators of idealistic state terror and dictatorship in the name of the betterment of the people, but he set the precedent - and with perfectly noble and pure intentions too, just like Dany.

An originally liberal, humanitarian French Revolutionary and slavery abolitionist who ended up as a dictator and perpetrator of mass execution in a reign of terror in which he became ever more paranoid about plots to his rule and increasingly egotistical to boot, is not a bad comparison for Dany imo. I honestly see her heading this way and I think that many are blindsided by her Robespierre-style 'progressive' qualities like promising to break the dynastic wheel, abolishing the slave trade and what-not.

If that kind of tragic moral regression into tyranny can happen in 18th century republican France in the context of a liberal, democratic revolution - born of the Enlightenment philosophy and Scientific Revolution - against an absolute monarchy: are you telling me it can't happen to an idealistic military conqueror in a medieval, feudalistic world, like Dany?

You have not given me any reasons to doubt her similarity to Robespierre - a flawed, uncompromising, narrow-minded and almost schizophrenically paranoid moral idealist with a black-and-white (manichaen) view of human nature and absolute power at their disposal, who is both ready and willing to use terror (Robespierre said: "Terror is nothing other than swift, severe, indomitable justice – it flows, then, from virtue") as a means of pursuing what Robespierre called "the despotism of liberty against tyranny", or as Dany calls it "breaking the wheel". 

Edited by Krishtotter

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Posted (edited)
23 hours ago, Error-504 said:

Ok, I will get my crayons out.

You said Bran most likely wouldn't like Dany. Basd on what exactly. I used jamie as a reference to show that Bran is capable of looking past quite a bit if he sees good in a person. that is why I brought up Jamie. I am sayinig, if bran can like jamie, he most certainly can like Dany. It's not like Bran is going to concern himself with personality. 

 

Oy Vey. 

Understanding context is everything. I said nothing about Sansa in specific. I said Bran though looking at Dany, was addressing everyone in the room. That included Sansa, last I checked. 

Re-read: I said MY PERSONAL OPINION few times... let's wait and see who will love or not who

 

Last time I checked they were not even in the room at all, but I get what you are saying...He just happened to be looking at and talking to Dany particularly because it was she who had to hear him. 

Edited by Gala

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Posted (edited)

The way people treat Daenerys is pitiful. She's not a picture-perfect Mary Sue type heroine. She's going to be a bit ruthless and scary in the next couple of books (she really tried) but...come on, give me a break.

How can you be so forgiving in regards to Tywin Lannister and his children but call Daenerys reprehensible?

Like do y'all seriously believe that Daenerys is in the same category as Ramsay Bolton,? Or are you guys just arguing that for the sake of a lively discussion.

Edited by Jabar of House Titan

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On 4/15/2019 at 4:05 AM, briantw said:

Seems to be pointing to the idea that there is more at play here than simply the Night King killing all the humans.  They have some sort of goal beyond simple murder, else why leave a message on the wall?  

Or it's just psychological warfare. The White Walkers are freaking out and demoralizing their enemies. Worked for me. I sure as hell wouldn't want to fight that mutha.

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Posted (edited)
On 4/21/2019 at 8:19 PM, Jabar of House Titan said:

The way people treat Daenerys is pitiful. She's not a picture-perfect Mary Sue type heroine. She's going to be a bit ruthless and scary in the next couple of books (she really tried) but...come on, give me a break.

How can you be so forgiving in regards to Tywin Lannister and his children but call Daenerys reprehensible?

Like do y'all seriously believe that Daenerys is in the same category as Ramsay Bolton,? Or are you guys just arguing that for the sake of a lively discussion.

Probably the latter. The characters that demonstrate they can learn from their mistakes and setbacks tend to survive, whereas those who remain stubborn, or don't have a lot of significance to the plot, get ganked. I guess we'll see in the coming weeks! Is Daenerys like Robespierre and try to hold onto her throne like Jaime trying to hold onto his fleshy hand, or will she give it up for the greater good?

Edited by Talking Hodor
wanted to add to it.

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On ‎4‎/‎15‎/‎2019 at 12:56 PM, Frances Bean Corbray said:

HEY!  GAME OF THRONES IS BACK!

HEY!  I'M BACK!


You know what that means.  The MODIFIED MCSHANE SCORING SYSTEM IS BACK, TOO, and we're gonna ride it all the way through this 6 episode home stretch to determine scientifically just how good the swan song for this series is.


First things first:  Tits?  YES, in the form of Bronn doing Bronn things to remind you Bronn is Bronn.  Dragons?  YES.  So we have potential for a perfect 10 out of 10 episode.


Since Season 8 is re-establishing the show after a 20 month layoff AND it's the climax of the narrataive where all the geographically divergent plot threads finish merging together, I decided the show would be in line for some bonus points if every active [i.e. not plausibly written out/killed off] character made an appearance and 8.1 got really, really close.  Alas, no Pod and no Brie-Brie.  No points off, because this was just a bonus thing, because they still got really close, spiritually fulfilling the idea if not literally, and because no Brienne of Tarth means I don't have to come up with any Captain Phasma jokes this week.


I like when this show lets its cinematography breath.  We follow the journey of a young boy running around and being a little brat who climbs a tree and watches the parade of characters roll into Winterfell.  The tree happens to be near where Arya is standing so our perspective shifts to her as she smiles at all the people she likes (Gendry, Jon) and sneers at the people she doesn't (Sandor).  I do like how the little boy (it's actually Lord Ned Umber, remember him?) and Arya are visibly WTF at all the marching Unsullied because of course they'd have heard of but never seen any before.  NO DIALOGUE at first.  Which turns out to be a good thing as the first words of the new season a couple clunkers of "lol Eunuch" jokes from Tyrion at Varys' expense.  Varys even points out the naked hypocrisy of Tyrion making eunuch jokes while hating drawf jokes.  To which Tyrion responds with another joke about eunuchs not having testicles.  Well, at least it's out of the way.  MINUS ONE QUARTER POINT for the jokes that aren't even that funny. [9.75]


Once everyone who matters is inside Jon hugs his brother who is actually his cousin Bran and Sansa & Dany start exchanging feudal pleasantries to remind everybody we're in a period piece (with dragons) when Dr. Branhattan correctly interrupts and reminds everybody that WE ARE ALL GOING TO DIE unless we stop wasting time with medieval bullshit and focus on surviving personified climate change.  We have a conference scene where little Alys Karstark does a little silent existing, little Ned Umber drives home the whole medieval period piece thing by asking for horses and blah blah de blah so he can go pick up his people, and little Lyana Mormont yells at Jon for being a simp on behalf of all Northerners and Jon reminds everybody for the 83rd time that he [correctly] did this because crowns ain't shit if everybody's dead.  Now I understand and like that one of the central themes of ASOIAF and by extension GOT is that Feudalism Actually Sucks so they do need to belabor the point that people are stuck in the old ways of doing things and old tactics aren't suited to new battlefield realities but I GET IT ALREADY, SHOW.  Minus .5 for beating the drum a little too much. [9.25]


QYBURN shows up to inform Cersei that the army of the dead has breached the wall (you know, given that the wall is 8000 years old you'd think more people would be freaking out about it being destroyed, but whatever), to which Cersei replies GOOD.  I like the efficiency in re-establishing that Cersei is evil, crazy, and dumb.  Pan to the Greyjoy fleet just outside of King's Landing harbor WHERE:
Captain Jack Greyjoy is the worst uncle Yara has ever heard of.  BUT YOU HAVE HEARD OF ME.  Anyway, we get a throwaway reference to Euron's crew all being mutes and the show at least TRIES to lampshade not just killing Yara off (set up oh so artfully by having Yara ask "so why haven't you killed me yet?").  Euron explains that he wants someone to talk to and we get our first obligatory LOL THEON GOT CASTRATED REMEMBER LOL joke of the season.  Euron vows to go fuck the queen.  You WISH you were on Sallador Saan's level, bro.  I really should take more than half a point off for this shit, but I want Asha to live through the series purely because I think she's cool, and this scene keeps that hope alive along with her, so only minus .5. [8.75]


Are you ready for the least Game Of Thronesy name ever that is ironically actually a canonical ASOIAF name?  Say hi to HARRY STRICKLAND.  He will be your waiter this evening at on-screen representation of the Golden Company restaurant.  He explains there will be no elephants because the dragons eat up all the budget ER I MEAN they're too much of a hassle to transport over water even though Hannibal managed the feat just fine much to Republican Rome's chagrin.  Harry Strickland looks like a Jaime Lannister cosplayer and I actually think that's a brilliant little touch.  Cersei and Euron have the same conversation they had 3 or 4 times last season only this time it continues after sex and concludes with a vow to put a prince in Cersei's belly, and we get lingering silence on Cersei's face giving YOU time to remember she told Jaime she was already pregnant last season.  Did they forget?  Did Cersei lie to Jaime about being pregnant?  Is she lying to Euron about not being pregnant?   Does it really matter?  No.  Too long, too redundant, too much making me wish Sallador Saan was still here.  But Strickland being generic store brand Jaime is just too good.  Only minus half a point [8.25]


Bronn does a Bronn thing until Qyburn cockblocks him by showing up to hand him his plot thread for the year [Cersei wants her brothers dead, will pay].  Joffrey's crotchbow makes its return to the show.  The annuled Stokeworth engagment is referenced.  Nothing remarkable about this scene, other than Qyburn tapping into his mad scientist spidey sense and predicting whore #2 will be dead of the pox within a year.  Qyburn is awesome.  I will give this a quarter point for Qyburn's line and for planting the potential for a White Walker Whore complete with Zombie Herpes shambling around in Episode 5.  [8.5]


JON AND ARYA HUGGING IT OUT FOR THE FIRST TIME IN 60 EPISODES GET HYPE.  Arya respects Sansa now.  Jon thinks that's weird but Arya reminds Jon that they're all family and on the same team.  Sorta.


DRAGON RIDING.  Okay this was pretty cool and while the dialogue is dragging behind the other elements of the show ("what if I fall off?"  "Then I have enjoyed your company."  I realize you THINK this is funny, show, but mostly it makes Dany sound like a dick and also I don't buy her being that blase about Jon potentially dying) but this scene does end with them finding a nice secluded spot to engage in Muchas Smoochas and it's good enough that I buy Jon and Dany as mutually horny teenagers.  Maybe they will make me actually feel the love by the end of this thing.


Gendry makes Sandor a Dragonglass Axe.  Gendry is Mr. Dragonglass.  Arya stops in to say hello and anachronistic shit about Gendry knowing one rich girl.  There's a little more to feudal class divides than that, show.  Arya and The Hound snip at each other and exchange begrudging respect.  MINUS ONE QUARTER POINT for breaking my immersion with the rich girl lines. [8.25]


I Used To Be An Extra Like You, Then I Took An Arrow To The Face.  Mystery arrows start dropping fools on Euron's boat and the problem with an all-mute crew - namely, nobody can shout out the alarm - immediately presents itself.  THEON IS FINALLY KICKING SOME ASS.  Took long enough!  While Euron is off trying to fill Sallador Saan's shoes, Theon is in his base, killing his d00dz, and liberating his captive.  Yara headbutts Theon as soon as she's cut free, which really smacks of lazy action movie "punch you then hug you" tripe, but then again these are the Greyjoys and that might just be how they shake hands in that fucked up family.  Also, as far as headbutts go, it was pretty good.  Theon and Yara make a clean getaway and Yara writes herself out of the main plot by explaining she's off to re-take the homeland while Euron's busy getting his dick wet, and justifies it by stating Team Dany will need a fallback point in case Shit Goes Wrong (and let's be real here, Shit is going to go Wrong).  Yara takes one more glance at the script and realizes Theon really wants to go to the sleepover at Jon's house and she gives him leave to do so.  A little disappointed in the lack of a showdown with maybe Theon heroically overcoming some of his trauma long enough to beat Euron's ass, but this DOES conform to a classic ASOIAF theme of thinking with your dick screws you over, as has happened to Euron here.  Theon got to be cool, Yara gets to live, and Theon is off to join the main plot at Winterfell.  I AM HAPPY.  Plus half a point [8.75]


Tyrion and Sansa check the character interaction box, but this is pretty nothing other than making Sansa kinda look like more of a dick than I think she should be and making sure the Lord Royce costume is still in working order.


Jon and Sansa have a chat.  Apparently the Glovers are not coming to the sleepover.  Sansa intimates this is Jon's fault somehow (even though she was already chirping about too many mouths to feed back when Dany's foreign hordes showed up) and implies that Jon bent the knee because he wants to bone Dany which, okay, kinda yeah (and Jon's face totally gives it away that this is part of it).  And Jon reminds her for the 500th time that it's actually because ZOMBIES.  I'm not sure if Sansa is supposed to be Not Quite Getting It because feudalism sucks, or because She Really Liked The Idea Of Being A Queen, or if it's just that they can't get the handle of characterizing someone as A Strong Woman without defaulting to Kinda A Bitch/"badass" dude only with tits.  Which is hardly a problem exclusive to Game of Thrones.  Anyway. WE GET IT, SHOW, Jon and Sansa don't trust each other and people aren't seeing the big undead picture.  I'm taking a full point off because I'm getting annoyed.  [7.75]


Dany, accompanied by Jorah The Fedorah, pops in to say hi to Sam.  Dany thanks Sam for saving Fedorah's life and does the classic feudal "name your reward" thing.  Sam asks for a pardon for all his theiving, including Heartsbane, which leads into an awkward convo where Dany reveals that she killed Sam's dad and bro which is a bit of a bombshell for Sam even though his dad was a total shit.  Family's complicated like that.  And besides Rickon Dickon was a decent enough dude.  Dany does not include the burnination detail.  Sam, tears in his eyes, asks to be excused.  I keep forgetting the name of the actor who plays Sam, which is too bad because I really like him here.  The "I killed your dad.  oh yeah, your brother, too" dialogue between Dany and Sam was good comedy beats, but this was supposed to be drama/tragedy.  So it feels pretty forced and like you can see the nuts and bolts of the stage.  DERP.


Sam runs out crying into the night and of course Dr. Branhattan is there, and he consoles Sam's grief by informing him now would be a good time to tell Jon about his true lineage.  Sam tries to pawn it off on Bran, because Bran is Jon's brother.  Of course, the whole point of this is that strictly speaking he isn't, but whateves.  Bran points out that Jon trusts Sam more (does not point out Sam also has the qualification of being able to walk) and off Sam goes into the crypt to hug it out with Jon.  


Ned Statue!  Sam apologizes for going into the Stark only zone, even though non-Starks pop up here fairly regularly now.  Sam drops the bombshell.  YOUR MOTHER....WEARS COMBAT BOOTS

oh no wait excuse me, typo, YOUR MOTHER WAS LYANNA STARK.  Rhaegar's your dad, Bob's your uncle, you're actually Aegon VI and you might want to go backsies on the whole knee bending thing because you are ahead of Dany in line.  Sam also cites his dead dad and bro as a reason why Jon would actually be better at the whole king thing.  Jon also seemed not to know Dany burnt Sam's family, though I'm not sure why she'd be expected to tell him or why Jon would be particulary bothered by it.  Also one literally asked for it and the other had it coming so while Sam's bias is understandable (and a good plot tension hook going forward, maybe) I'm not sure this is as big a deal as Sam feels it is.  So we got that done.  MINUS 1 POINT for Bran's "he's not my brother" line because he's still your cousin, you pedantic little shit.  MINUS 1 POINT for Dany and Sam having a comedy dialogue exchange in a tragedy scene.  PLUS 1 POINT for Sam's actor being great.  PLUS HALF A POINT for Jon having a good freakout over learning the truth and for getting that reveal out of the way. [7.25]


Next, an instructional video on how to paint your horror movie by the numbers.  Tormund and Beric lead a cautious sweep of a very destroyed looking Last Hearth (complete with torn up Umber banners still hanging so you know) looking for signs of life, of which there are none.  OMG FOOSTEPS EVERYBODY HIDE.  Comedic relief of tension as it turns out to be Edd's crew doing the same thing.  Edd leads Tormund and Beric to the only body they could find, which turns out to be Little Ned Umber, tacked to the wall in the center of a White Walker spiral pattern.  "It's a message from the White Walkers" NO SHIT SHERLOCK BERIC the show wasn't on hiatus for that long, geez, it's been well established over 7 seasons as thing we do.  Anyway, to the surprise of no one, the camera cuts to Tormund at an angle where you can see dead Ned over his shoulder and recognize the facial makeup used for everyone who springs to life as a wight and the dead kid starts screaming and hissing to provide your jump scare at exactly the right time.  People freak out, Beric turns on his flamethrower and stabs the kid with his sword [once is enough with the Omni-Tool!] who immediately catches fire all over, spreading specificaly to the spirals and nothing else.  Inhuman screeching continues until he finishes burning.  MINUS A QUARTER POINT for being a scene for every horror movie ever.  MINUS HALF POINT for Beric's flamethrower sword telling physics to eat a dick.  PLUS HALF A POINT for courageously killing off a little kid.  PLUS A QUARTER POINT for working Edd in and not forgetting about him. [7.25]


THE HOODED MAN comes to Winterfell.  Well that was quick, Theon.  Oh no wait it's JAIME finally showing up, the other guy who damn well better stay incognito when showing up to Winterfell.  Jaime's got some great gray beard action going on that has him looking like Old Man Luke Skywalker in the new Star Wars films.  Of course the first person he makes eye contact with is Bran.  DUN DUN DUN.  and roll credits.


FINAL SCORE:  7.25.


Competent but not mindblowing.  I'm probably being a soft judge here because I'm glad the show's back, also the degree of difficulty is down as they enter the home stretch and they just have to not piss themselves while tying up all the dangling plot threads into one big fuzzy ball of climax.  Whatever. This didn't make me feel like a total fool for waiting 20 months to see and gave me enough good feels that I can say I was content with this episode and I can look past its warts.

I'm new to this Forum (am I supposed to capitalize that?  Maybe i should capitolize instead?) and I really, really enjoy these Modified McShane Scoring System Reports!!!!

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