Jump to content
Eddard Waters

Who's the worst human being, Tywin Lannister or Roose Bolton

Recommended Posts

On 4/15/2019 at 6:29 AM, Eddard Waters said:

Tysha would like to have a word with you. 

Like seriously there are a million ways he could have handled that without doing what he did.

That was pure puppy kicking evil and only done to reinforce the idea that no one could love Tyrion.

You would have to consider what he did in the moral standard of Medieval world, in that world what his father's mistress did was seriously over the line, and need to be severely punished, what Tywin did to her was a little harsh, but people in the Medieval world would have to admit it was acceptable.

On the other hand what he did to house Reyne was completely justified, what else he could do? any less punishment than what he had done would be immediately undone by his father. Pay attention to the facts that, after he rise to the power, he never go to that extreme, he always told Jaime and his bannermen, "If someone knelt before you, you must pull him up by both of your hands, otherwise no one will ever kneel to you"

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 4/15/2019 at 6:29 AM, Eddard Waters said:

Tysha would like to have a word with you. 

Like seriously there are a million ways he could have handled that without doing what he did.

That was pure puppy kicking evil and only done to reinforce the idea that no one could love Tyrion.

Yeah, he could have a million other ways to handle this, say he could have killed her, again you CANNOT judge him by today's moral standard, in the Medieval world they live in, Tysha had committed an unforgiving crime by humiliating house of a great House, I actually surprised that he eventually let her live

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 4/15/2019 at 2:02 PM, Chris Mormont said:

Roose was far worse than Tywin. 

Roose likes to hurt people for the sake of hurting people, and he does nothing to control Ramsey.  Furthermore, Roose was undermining and betraying Robb way before the Red Wedding.

Tywin rationalizes everything he does by doing it in the course of war.  He may employ sadists, but he does not enjoy doing the deeds himself.

This.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah, Roose is marginally worse. The rapey flayer wins that one. Tywin didn't personally engage in acts of cruelty. Roose does. He literally drove a sword through his kings chest. And put the men who rebuilt WF to death. Roose has restraint. He's demonstrated this throughout tWoFK and in the presence of Arya and later with Theon. So he's selective, he picks his moments. But he takes his chances where he can.
Tywin, by comparison? Well, suffice to say it was surprising to learn that he slept with whores, even. Maybe he had other secrets. But the guy we meet in the book just gives out orders. The mountain and his men attacked the RL on Tywin's orders, but Tywin didn't tell him specifically to carry out acts of pure evil. He may of said, "kill Elia and her children" but he wouldn't of said, "bash her sons brain in and rape her to death". I think his most horrendous act was having Tyrion's new wife raped by his garrison. A few gold coins would of removed that problem. But he had to go the whole hog and actually have her used as a prostitute. It doesn't matter what comes out about Tywin. The loss of his wife, or the fact his house was a laughing stock, there are some things that go beyond reason. And the above is one of those examples. Even so, Roose is the more unscrupulous and cruel of the two. His treatment of the IB and his fellow northmen at the RW prove this. Tywin was their enemy. Roose was suppose to be their trusted ally, he offered the IB peace terms, then flayed them. Seriously, f*** Roose. 

I've always seen Tywin as somewhat detached from what he does. He's an elitist with a huge amount of entitlement. I wonder if he see's the small-folk as people at all? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 4/15/2019 at 6:04 PM, Plain, Simple Tailor said:

I’m sorry if I’m a little bit angry, but I just cannot stand the argument that he’s doing it “for Tyrion’s own good”

This is a bit hard to express and explain:

Tywin saw how people espacially one certain mistres get use the good will of a Lannister family.

Quote

Upon his return to Casterly Rock after hearing of his father's death, Tywin found his father's new mistress trying on one of his late mother's gowns. Tywin learned that while he was away serving as at King's Landing, his father's mistress, the daughter of a chandler, dominated Tytos utterly, ordering about the household knights and dismissing servants and helping herself to his late wife's jewelery

Tywin always thought of Tyrion as weak even when Tyrion was about to kill him:

Quote

"You do not have the courage."

I'm wondering why Tywin never disinherited Tyrion because there was always a small chance that Tywin died in some accident. This is the medieval age where you have no safety  regulations or hospitals. In this case Tyrion would get all the wealth of house Lannister. 

IMO Tywin cared really much about the Lannister gold and not about having another laughing Lion. I know this is a show quote but this was when Book and show still agreed.

Quote

You know what "legacy" means? It's what you pass down to your children, and your children's children. It's what remains of you when you're gone. 

To sum it up:

Tywin couldn't care less about Tyrion’s whores if he had disinherited him. Tywin saw a some of his fathers behaviour in Tyrion and this made him do ridiculous things to prevent his son from becoming fully his father.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Karneol said:

This is a bit hard to express and explain:

Tywin saw how people espacially one certain mistres get use the good will of a Lannister family.

Tywin always thought of Tyrion as weak even when Tyrion was about to kill him:

I'm wondering why Tywin never disinherited Tyrion because there was always a small chance that Tywin died in some accident. This is the medieval age where you have no safety  regulations or hospitals. In this case Tyrion would get all the wealth of house Lannister. 

IMO Tywin cared really much about the Lannister gold and not about having another laughing Lion. I know this is a show quote but this was when Book and show still agreed.

To sum it up:

Tywin couldn't care less about Tyrion’s whores if he had disinherited him. Tywin saw a some of his fathers behaviour in Tyrion and this made him do ridiculous things to prevent his son from becoming fully his father.

Nope. Tywin is a projecting dick who sees himself in Tyrion and resents Tyrion for it. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

My first instinct was that Tywin is more cruel because the Tysha event demonstrates a profound degree of deliberate cruelty that few people can scarcely imagine, let alone commit.

But if I had to live in Westeros and I could choose which Lord to serve, Tywin or Roose, I would choose Tywin every day of the week and never think twice about it. Regardless of how their deeds compare, I think that's the best way for me to measure their evilness.

Tywin can be a monster to people he hates, but he is someone with whom I feel like I can build a relationship of mutual trust. Roose does not seem like someone I could ever trust. No matter how good my service has been to him, he doesn't seem like the type who would hold to any principles that might stop him from completely betraying me for sufficient gain. I have a strong sense for and repulsion to people who do not value or respect social contracts. So even mildly sociopathic behavior. It's mostly intuitive so I don't always know what specific observations cause it, but Roose gives me that sense and Tywin doesn't. Maybe it's because Tywin feels the need to justify breaking guest right, which suggests that he feels guilt. And then maybe guilt is an important indication of the presence of whatever inner workings constitute an understanding and respect for relationships. As far as I can tell, the only justification Roose needs is that it's convenient for him.

Edited by rustythesmith

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, marsyao said:

Yeah, he could have a million other ways to handle this, say he could have killed her, again you CANNOT judge him by today's moral standard, in the Medieval world they live in, Tysha had committed an unforgiving crime by humiliating house of a great House, I actually surprised that he eventually let her live

Humiliated them how? By marrying Tyrion? A sociallyinferior marriage is hardly humiliation

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Tywin claims he didn't order Elia's death and her children's death is done too brutally so he's not sadistic, sack of KL is different, his action about Tysha is inhumane though, he's giving orders of pillaging and raping, though but they're at war and he's want's to win it in anyway necessary, he's below to LF and Tyrells in power hungry category for me, he believe that Joffrey is true son of Robert so he think they are fighting for his rights.

Roose however is pretty different, he raped women after he killed her husband, he flayed people and send Reek to Ramsay as a mockery, so I'll give my vote to Roose on this one, he betray his King and other Lords, then place Grey Winds head to Robb after the RW, he's not the worst in Westeros, there's Ramsay and pets, Brave companions and Gregor's men.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think it boils down what one defines as "worst". I think there are at least two viable ways of interpretaing this question:
- the worst human being from moral point of view,
- the worst Lord to be subject to.

Both of them are criminals and it's really like comparing Ted Bundy and John Wayne Gacy. Or, rather, Gilles de Rais and Ivan the Terrible.

One of them is more prone to inflict suffering with his own hands, involving torture, mutilation, rape, murder and treason. His dominion is only a fracture of the other's "Empire", so committed atrocities may be lesser in scale, but definitely electric chair worthy. Roose takes opportunities given to him, he's selective with his victims and thinks twice before he moves. But make no mistake, if he's in a position to take what he wants and avoid detection, he'll do it. I think he's already flayed a good number of smallfolk during those years, not to mention other torments.

The other is definitely unforgiving to his enemies and burns them to the ground, literally. What some Tywin apologists overlook in my observation (not necessarily in this thread), he definitely has a sadistic side, and the way he's handled the Tysha case proves that imho. I think he could even go as far as annuling the "shameful" marriage, hanging the girl, flogging the Imp... and it still would be less twisted than the ordeal he planned on that day. Less twisted, not better.

Sleeping with Shae not only shows his hypocrisy, but proves even further that he was hell-bent on humiliating Tyrion - maybe he even took sexual satisfaction from it, but I can't prove it so I'll leave that out.

Ordering chevauchees in Riverlands, pillaging the King's Landing or destroying House Reyne were exceedingly cruel (even if he gained political advantage from it) and affected (arguably) more people than Roose's shenanigans. But I suspect Bolton wouldn't hesitate and do all the same in Tywin's position though - at least if he was as shrewd as Old Lion was.

So yes, they are definitely terrible human beings and anyone worth the Iron Throne should recognize it. Who's worse morally? If you go by the numbers, Tywin has the lead. If we judge them by personal deeds, Roose edges him out - you can't beat torturing someone to death, I think.

Now the second part. Well, I agree that living under Tywin's is much less likely to cause anguish. I give him that. I'm willing to bet that Roose Bolton harrassed smallfolk for no good reason and tried to cover it from Starks... and has been successful for years. Tywin probably leaves you alone as long as you're obedient and pay your taxes.

BUT Tywin Lannister also has Gregor Clegane and Amory Lorch under his banners. Who the hell knows what they do in their keeps. Who believes they were good overlords and let the smallfolk live peacefully... and who thinks Tywin didn't know about this? Why did he send Gregor and Amory to Red Keep that day instead of Harys Swyft, Lyle Crakehall or Andros Brax? I guess we'll never know.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Tywin Lannister is an immoral, overly proud, egotistical, somewhat paranoid, detached from reality, plotting, cruel, piece of dogshit who has been awarded with positions of immense power for no other reasons than his family’s name, his family’s money, and his ruthless behaviour. The only positives about the guy that isn’t merely an absence of a negative, is that he appears quite intelligent, but since he is detached from reality (as in any and all *indirect* consequences of his actions), and he is utterly merciless and unable to forgive or forget, it is kind of trumped by his stubborn pride and drive for self-importance.

He is not bad in the *worst possible example of human behaviour* way, but in the *I am the most importantest person in the whole world* way. He thinks his actions are not only justified, but moral and unquestionable, because he thinks his family and it’s interests are the topmost important thing in the universe.

He doesn’t have a very forgiving or amiable nature in the first place, and his father’s behaviour made it even more so, making him consider such qualities *weak*, and that you would inevitably be exploited for succumbing to it.

His solution to the Reynes and Tarbecks exploiting his father’s overly trusting nature and not submitting as soon as he told them to, was to MURDER ALL OF THEM. I would say exterminating two entire families for the actions of four-ish* individuals is a bit too far.

*I don’t really count Reynard or Walderan, Ellyn and Roger did most of the actual crimes and simply imbued them with a little too much arrogance.

His relationship with Aerys is a rather tragic and sympathetic story. Up until the point that he decided that the best thing to do was murder Aerys and all of his immediate family because it would benefit him politically. Understandable, though a little... excessively coldhearted. Especially playing on Aerys’s insecurities of loyalty.

His solution to his son marrying one of the little people without his permission was... forcing Jamie to lie to Tyrion about Tysha being a prostitute and then... gangrape... what a lovely chap.

His behaviour and attitude towards Tyrion in general, Jamie after renouncing heirship, and Cersei in regards to her gender, are the true catalysts to see him for what and who he truly was.

Tyrion reveals his lack of forgiveness and empathy. Jamie reveals his egocentrism. And Cersei reveals just how stupid his style of leadership really was, after all, who do you think she is trying to imitate? Kevan reveals his good sides, and I like Kevan, but in truth, each of his good sides is a double-edged sword, his ambition for one. Genna also makes some statements that help prove just how silly his world-view really was.

All in all, he’s a real piece of shit if you actually look beneath the polished surface, which is the facade he himself has created, and the reason that his actions can be interpreted as less egregious than they really were.

When he opens up about Gregor and Amory’s sadistic murders of children, that felt real and raw. But... it also points out that he is kinda detached from reality, Gregor and Amory, really? Of all possible assassins he chose the most murdery ones? And he really expected Elia to just step aside as Gregor bashed her son’s head in? He didn’t expect that Rhaenys might have resisted?

Roose isn’t the best guy, but I have a genuinely decent impression of him. He is appalled by Ramsey on some level, and whilst he is immoral, he isn’t amoral. “A quiet land, a peaceful people”, that at least means that he tries to keep his peasants a little happy.

He is a confessed rapist, he has possibly flayed people, he is unemotional, and he is a murderer. So he is still a horrible person, but his horribleness is less far-reaching than Tywin’s.

Also, I love the Reek chapter where he just rails into Ramsey and points out all of Ramsey’s flaws on a level that he could have been a psychotherapist in our world if he wanted to. So I think that’s where my bias comes from.

I also love the actor’s portrayal of Roose in seasons 4-6 for some reason. Speaking of the actor, that voice, goddamn, Challenger Deep’s got nothing on that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That's a tough one.

 

Roose can be contradicting. He's against kinslaying but is a rapist and oathbreaker. He gave Ramsey lordship even though he knows he is a bad guy, and lets him do all kinds of things and even uses him a personal fallguy. Tywin was going to let Tyrion die even though he knew Tyrion didn't kill Joffrey. For this reason, I must go with Tywin. He's basically the one who got Roose to do what he did against Robb Stark.

 

Truthfully, if I were to think about it again. I'd change my mind to Roose.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, HelenaExMachina said:

Humiliated them how? By marrying Tyrion? A sociallyinferior marriage is hardly humiliation

Again you are using today's moral standard, some kind of "Guess Who's Coming to Dinner" Medieval version

Edited by marsyao

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
42 minutes ago, marsyao said:

Again you are using today's moral standard, some kind of "Guess Who's Coming to Dinner" Medieval version

No i’m not. Prince Duncan married below his station. His father did not have the poor bride gang raped

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, HelenaExMachina said:

No i’m not. Prince Duncan married below his station. His father did not have the poor bride gang raped

Well, the issue was Tyrion was only 13, still a child, and Prince Duncan was 17 thus already an adult, and as a King Aegon had the right to punish Jenny, included had her gang raped and killed, he choose not to do that. that did not prove what Tywin did, though cruel, was anything against moral standard at that time,

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 4/14/2019 at 7:57 PM, Eddard Waters said:

So we have Tywin Lannister, a sadistic and power-hungry egomaniac who is probably the biggest mass murderer in recent Westerosi history, or Roose Bolton, a psychopathic torturer, serial rapist and Kingslayer.

In terms of sheer numbers, I would give the prize to Tywin: Castamere, Tarbeck Hall, King's Landing, the Riverlands . . . he probably has the blood of upwards of half-a-million people on his hands.

Roose had his part in the RW, approx. 10,000 men, a crime that he shares with Tywin, plus various and sundry atrocities committed against his own smallfolk and other northern lords.

But I agree with @SiSt in that Roose is not entirely human, so we get into some gray area when we talk about the morality of him killing humans. We are more like animals to him. On the flip side, however, Roose is thousands of years old, so his body count may be higher than Tywin's.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Shpati said:

Tywin was going to let Tyrion die even though he knew Tyrion didn't kill Joffrey.

How would he "know" that?

I say it's easily Roose. Joffrey causes lots of problems while Tywin is away, but when Tywin sees how he's screwing things up he constrains the king. Roose sics Ramsay on his enemies (while publicly acknowledging that Ramsay is evil), and indicates that he's going to do nothing about Ramsay murdering his own family in order to become lord. That's a nihilism which goes way beyond Tywin. Roose's line about "A peaceful land, a quiet people" is just a matter of keeping things hushed up. Murdering a woman's husband and then raping her underneath his hanging body, along with cutting out the tongue of the man's brother to keep him from talking, is not "keeping the peasants happy". Tywin's atrocities tend to be public knowledge, because the threat that he might do something could deter others from acting in a way that would result in the threat being carried out. Roose acts secretly because he'd be severely punished otherwise. Appointing Tywin as Hand resulted in (by every account we know of) good service, but Roose gave Ned the terrible advice of executing Barristan Selmy (when Tywin knows you want him on your side) and sabotaged Robb's battle plans even before there were any plans for the Red Wedding.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Roose pretty much wins it.  He murdered a peasant and raped his wife because they didn't observe First Night.  He is perfectly content to let Ramsay run wild.  He is unbothered by the fact that his legitimate son was murdered by Ramsay.  He deliberately and secretly undermined his liege lord, long before there was a losing cause, and then personally murdered him.  

Tywin has done none of that.  If you cross him, he will overreact, but is essentially Machiavellian.  He curbed Joffrey (or tried to).  He returns loyalty with loyalty.  He'll defend the Lannisters and Westeros quite ruthlessly, and can do evil acts in furtherance of that, but I do not consider him on a level with Roose.

On 4/17/2019 at 7:24 AM, Shpati said:

Tywin was going to let Tyrion die even though he knew Tyrion didn't kill Joffrey.

I actually think Tyrion truly believed that Tyrion actually murdered Joffrey.  Tywin certainly had ample reason to believe so.  Between Tyrion's staements that Joffrey was unfit, his threats against Joffrey, and his wife Sansa's mistreatment by Joffrey, there was plenty of evidence against Tyrion.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 4/17/2019 at 1:07 PM, marsyao said:

Well, the issue was Tyrion was only 13, still a child, and Prince Duncan was 17 thus already an adult, and as a King Aegon had the right to punish Jenny, included had her gang raped and killed, he choose not to do that. that did not prove what Tywin did, though cruel, was anything against moral standard at that time,

We've never seen a situation akin to Tysha. Theres no reason to assume thats moral standard, especially since Bronn and Jaime were thundetstruck with the story.

 

Tywins totally a worse person. He reminds me of Michael Corleone. He saw his father being taken advantage of and when time came to rule he came out swinging. Mike wanted the Corleone family to become legit and to stop dabbling in the criminal underworld; Like Tywin wanted regalty instead of petty Lordship squabbles. They got it, but it was all a sham. The courts acqutited Michael of wrongdoing like Joff was king, but its bullshit. Mike was still a criminal and Lannisters no king. Yet everything was "for the family", Mike and Tywin only act immoral for the benifit of their house. Whatever their intentions, their kids disowned their dad. (Not even getting into their incestuous daughter) The most powerful and respected man in recent history dies alone with no one to shed a tear.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×