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Eddard Waters

Who's the worst human being, Tywin Lannister or Roose Bolton

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Posted (edited)
On 4/15/2019 at 3:59 AM, SiSt said:

Easy. As Roose isn't entirely human, it has to be Tywin. B)

I think Tywin anyway. 

Nailed it

Haha for real though, both are terrible, but no worse or better than Jon Arryn or Hoster Tully, a couple of "good guy" patriarchs, so it's all relative I think 

Edit: actually, of the four I mentioned, by modern standards, Tully is far and away the worst, the other 3 were ruthless to thier enemies, Hoster forcibly aborted his own grandchild to save face.

Edited by Back door hodor

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1 hour ago, Back door hodor said:

Nailed it

Haha for real though, both are terrible, but no worse or better than Jon Arryn or Hoster Tully, a couple of "good guy" patriarchs, so it's all relative I think 

Edit: actually, of the four I mentioned, by modern standards, Tully is far and away the worst, the other 3 were ruthless to thier enemies, Hoster forcibly aborted his own grandchild to save face.

Roose goes around raping his own peasants for no apparent reason other than he feels like it and I wouldn't exactly call Tysha in enemy of House Lannister.

What Holster did was horrible but at least by the end of his life he seemed to regret what he did. Certainly doesn't excuse his actions but still. 

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Neither of these gents would qualify for "worst human being" because they had their reasons for their brutality.  You and I might not agree with their reasons but at least they had their reasons.  What they did was not completely unprovoked.  They're bad people but they are not close to being the worst in this series.  I can make a long list of those who are worst than Tywin and Roose.

  1. Euron
  2. Warlocks of Qarth
  3. Slave traders in Essos
  4. Volantene slaver owners
  5. Weeper
  6. Faceless Men
  7. Mercenaries in Essos
  8. Bronn
  9. Jaime
  10. Gregor Clegane

Tywin is on the extreme when it comes to harsh.  He went too far with the Tarbecks, Reynes, Princess Elia, Princess Rhaenys, and Aegon.  So he is worse than Roose but not on the level of Euron and Gregor.  Roose could be argued had a responsibility to pull down Robb Stark because he recognized his obligation to support his king.  He had no way of knowing Joffrey was a Lannister.  Robb Stark was just another petty lord attempting to advance himself as far as the eyes of the majority are concerned.  What he did to Ramsay's mom is what many nobleman in the north would do in the past if one of their peasants had denied him the right to bang his new wife.  The north held right of the first night in high regard.  I'm sure any city that gets sacked will have suffered the same thing.  It's very bad but not enough to put Roose on the same level of evil as the ironborn.  

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2 hours ago, The Gizzard of Oz said:

Neither of these gents would qualify for "worst human being" because they had their reasons for their brutality.  You and I might not agree with their reasons but at least they had their reasons.  What they did was not completely unprovoked.  They're bad people but they are not close to being the worst in this series.  I can make a long list of those who are worst than Tywin and Roose.

  1. Euron
  2. Warlocks of Qarth
  3. Slave traders in Essos
  4. Volantene slaver owners
  5. Weeper
  6. Faceless Men
  7. Mercenaries in Essos
  8. Bronn
  9. Jaime
  10. Gregor Clegane

Tywin is on the extreme when it comes to harsh.  He went too far with the Tarbecks, Reynes, Princess Elia, Princess Rhaenys, and Aegon.  So he is worse than Roose but not on the level of Euron and Gregor.  Roose could be argued had a responsibility to pull down Robb Stark because he recognized his obligation to support his king.  He had no way of knowing Joffrey was a Lannister.  Robb Stark was just another petty lord attempting to advance himself as far as the eyes of the majority are concerned.  What he did to Ramsay's mom is what many nobleman in the north would do in the past if one of their peasants had denied him the right to bang his new wife.  The north held right of the first night in high regard.  I'm sure any city that gets sacked will have suffered the same thing.  It's very bad but not enough to put Roose on the same level of evil as the ironborn.  

The Ironborn are an ancient culture with thousands of people. Men women and children who champion the rights of smallfolk and democracy. 

Its not only stereotypical to think an entire culture is worse then the rapist kingslayer who glorifies flay, its also largely incorrect.

Regarding the rest of your list, I have issues with #2,#5,#7, and possibly #8 or #9 as well. 

The Warlocks and the Weeper dont have enough story for us to truly judge their character. But from what I can tell they are fighting for the survival of their culture.

The mercenaries of Essos are no worse then a common Westerosi soldier

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On 4/14/2019 at 7:57 PM, Eddard Waters said:

So we have Tywin Lannister, a sadistic and power-hungry egomaniac who is probably the biggest mass murderer in recent Westerosi history, or Roose Bolton, a psychopathic torturer, serial rapist and Kingslayer.

Tough choice. But given what we know of both, I pick Tywin. 

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Roose commits atrocities, but advocates discretion and moderation while doing so.

Tywin also commits atrocities, but was one of the most effective administrators in the history of Westeros. Many commoners considered the reign of Aerys II a golden age of peace and prosperity, largely due to Tywin's actions.

There are many powerful people in the series that are far worse than either Roose or Tywin, but Tywin's atrocities were calculated, while Rosse's were for pleasure. I would rather live under Tywin.

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37 minutes ago, Ibbison from Ibben said:

Roose commits atrocities, but advocates discretion and moderation while doing so.

Tywin also commits atrocities, but was one of the most effective administrators in the history of Westeros. Many commoners considered the reign of Aerys II a golden age of peace and prosperity, largely due to Tywin's actions.

There are many powerful people in the series that are far worse than either Roose or Tywin, but Tywin's atrocities were calculated, while Rosse's were for pleasure. I would rather live under Tywin.

A cruel person can lead effectively.  They just have to be consistent and make the right decisions for the good of the majority.  While taking into consideration the welfare of the minority.  Tywin Lannister was a bad man but a good administrator.  Aerys was crazy but his kingdom prospered under his rule.  Robert was a good man but the realm suffered under his reign.  It's not about being a good person.  What it really is about is being effective.  

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Roose is worse.

Because Tywin is reactive in cruelty, but Roose is proactive. He murdered smallfolk which rebuilt Winterfell to no purpose. That's Maegor level of evil. 

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Oh yes Tywin the greatest evil world has seen.

He started of his career by crushing a rebellion, I mean how could he, why not just let Reynes take over and bloodshed could be avoided.

Then he serves the king for years as King Hand and thanks to him realm prospers. Aerys honoured Tywin by naming Jamie Kingsguard and ungrateful Tywin left his position. 

In Roberts rebellion he took Kingslanding with a trick instead of having a siege and a proper assault. He ordered killed every Targaryen, which was really bad since the more Targaryen pretenders there are the better for the realm. Since only incestuous family of Targaryens can truly rule the Seven Kingdoms. 

Then his son gets arrested by House Stark and he goes to war with them? Just because some House has arrested someone without Kings justice having anything to do with arrest? 

Then he helps organising a Red Wedding with which he ends one war. He should have fought 20 battles to honourably defeat Stark-Tully rebellion. 

Truly a terrible terrible man. 

On a serious note Arya is probably worst human being or Ramsey. 

 

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On 4/15/2019 at 3:49 AM, Talking Hodor said:

Euron Greyjoy...

I don't think we understand him well enough judge how evil he is or isn't. We don't know his methods, and many of the actions attributed to him (ie, raping his brothers) are based on conclusions drawn from fragmentary memories that might not mean what we think they mean.

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On 4/14/2019 at 7:57 PM, Eddard Waters said:

So we have Tywin Lannister, a sadistic and power-hungry egomaniac who is probably the biggest mass murderer in recent Westerosi history, or Roose Bolton, a psychopathic torturer, serial rapist and Kingslayer.

These two are normal lords for their time.  The dark ages was not a time of kindness.  Tywin.  What he did to his son's fiance was uncalled for.  

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7 hours ago, Tour De Force said:

These two are normal lords for their time.  The dark ages was not a time of kindness.  Tywin.  What he did to his son's fiance was uncalled for.  

If what Roose Bolton is doing is normal, why the hell did he even bother to cover up his actions?

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Roose illegally continued to practice the Lord's Right to the First Night.  He had to cover it up.  The groom committed an offense in his eyes.  The husband denied him the right to deflower the bride.  This is the tradition of the northmen. 

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I have never thought Tywin was anywhere near bad or evil. Quite the opposite actually, My opinion is that Tywin would have made best king of all characters in asoiaf. Yeah, he was extremely ruthless but that is almost desirable trait for a feudal ruler. I think Tywin never did any of those ruthless acts for his own enjoyment, unlike Ramsay of Joffrey, but to serve greater purpose and his long term goals.

By wiping out Castameres and Reynes he prevented having those houses seeking revenge in the future and we all have seen what disloyal vassals can do. It is also mentioned that future threats of vassals rebelling could be prevented just by sending someone to play "rains of castamere" potentially saving hundreds of lives. Same goes for killing Targaryen heirs. I mean it was horrendous and brutal thing to do but as said, might have prevented full scale wars in the future. And Tywin himself stated that he never intended those murders to be executed in such brutal fashion.

Tywin was also great administrator and military leader and just threat of going toe to toe with him made many to think twice of causing trouble. It is also said that the realm was peaceful and prosperous when he was the hand.

On the other hand Tywin sure did and said some mean things especially to his children. Especially the whole Tysha situation was pretty dark. Then again Tyrion who is known to crack jokes and to bed whores must have reminded Tywin of his own father who had caused all the mess he had to clean up.

 

But yeah, Im gonna say Roose is worse of the two. I really like the character but he is a complete psychopath. He seems to enjoy his hurting and humiliating as we can see during red wedding.  Also letting Ramsay do what he does and raping a woman while her husband hangs in the background is pretty evil to me.

 

 

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Tywin has weaponised, pragmatic cruelty but takes little to no pleasure in his work and sees it as a necessary evil to propel his family legacy; Roose masks his callous ways ("A peaceful land, a quiet people.", or paying off the miller's wife who he had raped), and as Lady Dustin said, he treats people like playthings. We also know he knows that human skin is not best suited for leather... not very common knowledge I would assume. 

So I'd say Roose. Tywin has commited more atrocious acts (that we know of) on grander scales than anything Roose has, but Roose has that evil mens rea that Tywin lacks.

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Posted (edited)

I personally don't think we have all of the information for Tywin. It is literally revealed in the last chapter that we see him alive in that their is massive hypocrisy in Tywin's story that we don't know. We pretty much know how bad Roose was and his reach was small. Tywin on the other hand can't be believed about anything. Especially that hogwash about not ordering the deaths of Elia's children. Isn't he the same guy that said that he came to the war effort too late and that after Robert saw what he had done to baby Aegon no man could doubt what side he was on. Tywin is the worst, easily. Confirmed child killer vs so.done who we have no info about him killing children.

Edited by Slaver's Dread

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