Jump to content

dany and sansa


starklover

Recommended Posts

21 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

To be honest, I take everything that comes out of Ms. Turner's mouth with a grain of salt.

It's funny how the person put those quotes up but not the one that really matters. Because that quote won't fit the Sansa hate narrative. What Sophie said first was that she has no idea why, the writers didn't tell her. So anything else she said is just guessing. And this is confirmed over and over with other actors. No one ever tells them about why their characters do what they do, what motivates them etc.. Just ask the guy who played Stannis.

The reason for Sansa not telling Jon has NOTHING to do with Sansa or her character. It was all about the plot, in this case D&D copying Lord of the Rings. Plot is the reason, not character. As the showrunners have confirmed that this a plot driven show, stop analyzing the damn characters. There are no characters. It's all about the plot.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Reading all of this, I actually see that none of us can properly analyze Sansa's character or her motivations because it is all lost in translation. Between Miss Turner's desire to keep the hype on, script that inorganically created "Gandalfian" moments and writers telling us one thing and showing another, it is impossible to come to any sort of conclusion.

Is Sansa power-hungry? No. I don't think that is the case. But, does she sometimes mirror Cersei for no apparent reason? I can understand that argument. Is Sansa smart? Yes. But, is she "the smartest" cookie in the jar? No. Are we really to believe that Sansa and Arya took down LF on their own? The last 3 seasons have been so inconsistent that practically you can't say anything about Sansa and not having a scene (or more) to contradict it. 

For some reason, I have chosen that this Sansa is the extension of Martin's Sansa. And I put her actions in the context of who she is, or what road she is taking in the books. I know it may be absurd, but I do that . It works for me. I may be completely wrong, but then again, in this debate, we are all wrong. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Mystical said:

The reason for Sansa not telling Jon has NOTHING to do with Sansa or her character. It was all about the plot, in this case D&D copying Lord of the Rings. Plot is the reason, not character. As the showrunners have confirmed that this a plot driven show, stop analyzing the damn characters. There are no characters. It's all about the plot.

Creatively it made sense to us, because we wanted it to happen.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

47 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

Off the top of my head. The average horse needs about what 20lbs of feed per day. So that works out to what about 1000 tons of feed per day for the horses, assuming one horse per man. And the average soldier probably needs about 2lbs of food per day, so that works out to about 100 Tons of food per day, if were assuming 100K soldiers or whatever. So, I'd certainly hope so.

Logistics get overlooked to a remarkable degree in films and TV series that depict warfare.  In reality, get the logistics right, and you're probably halfway towards winning, while get them wrong, and you're almost certain to lose.

I don't see how Winterfell could come close to supplying more than 10,000 soldiers at the very maximum.  That would be about 10 tons of food per day, for the soldiers, plus several tons for the horses.  That's why it was very unusual for any one army in pre-industrial times to number more than 20,000 - more than that number just couldn't be fed, unless they were fighting very close to home, or had unusually abundant food supplies.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, StoneColdJorahMormont said:

Danny doesn't want to.. she is amongst her people sansa was second fiddle to Jon and now she is third fiddle with the new power couple

What power couple? Jon is NO ONE politically. Dany is the only power in that couple. The only power Jon had was his King title. Without it he's a bastard with no titles, lands or castle. He shouldn't even be sitting at the damn high table anymore. WHO IS HE? NO ONE. Why is he still sitting there even next episode? Dany makes sense. Sansa makes sense. Jon makes no sense. He isn't even Warden of the North until Dany is actually sworn in as Queen of the 7K. So what power couple are you talking about? There is only one with power in there.

Even with the parents reveal, Jon is no one. I don't understand how D&D don't get the story this is based on. The Targs were disposed so they have no claim to the throne anymore, therefor neither does Jon. Rhaegar and Lyanna's wedding happened in secret without witnesses anyway which makes it not legal. Jon has no army of his own to enforce his non-existent right to the throne.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Logistics get overlooked to a remarkable degree in films and TV series that depict warfare.  In reality, get the logistics right, and you're probably halfway towards winning, while get them wrong, and you're almost certain to lose.

Amateurs study tactics. Professionals study logistics.

I agree that TV often looks these matters. And I can understand it to a large extent. As I'm sure the trials and tribulations of the army quartermaster (or in this case quatermaester) probably doesn't make for very exciting TV. Still it would seem GOT could try a bit harder in this regard. Just like they could have tried a bit harder with that whole Vale Army/Ramsay thing.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, Risto said:

Reading all of this, I actually see that none of us can properly analyze Sansa's character or her motivations because it is all lost in translation. Between Miss Turner's desire to keep the hype on, script that inorganically created "Gandalfian" moments and writers telling us one thing and showing another, it is impossible to come to any sort of conclusion.

Is Sansa power-hungry? No. I don't think that is the case. But, does she sometimes mirror Cersei for no apparent reason? I can understand that argument. Is Sansa smart? Yes. But, is she "the smartest" cookie in the jar? No. Are we really to believe that Sansa and Arya took down LF on their own? The last 3 seasons have been so inconsistent that practically you can't say anything about Sansa and not having a scene (or more) to contradict it. 

For some reason, I have chosen that this Sansa is the extension of Martin's Sansa. And I put her actions in the context of who she is, or what road she is taking in the books. I know it may be absurd, but I do that . It works for me. I may be completely wrong, but then again, in this debate, we are all wrong. 

It is a miracle the characters in the show undertand sansa at all. She was married to tyrion but ran away and decided to marry ramsay that was part of the familly that betrayed the starks. However then she escapes and suports her brother in killing ramsay…

Another example. She runs to the vale, lies for LF, willingly marries ramsay… Then does a 180 and runs from ramsay, asks for help in fighting against ramsay and then turns agains LF...

I am amazed anyone believes in whatever sansa says at this point...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, OldGimletEye said:

Amateurs study tactics. Professionals study logistics.

I agree that TV often looks these matters. And I can understand it to a large extent. As I'm sure the trials and tribulations of the army quartermaster probably doesn't make for very exciting TV. Still it would seem GOT could try a bit harder in this regard. Just like they could have tried a bit harder with that whole Vale Army/Ramsay thing.

The TV adaptations  of Bernard Cornwell's Sharpe novels  do it quite well.  Sharpe quite frequently has to deal with issues of supply. either having to guard supply trains, or wrangling with dishonest quartermasters.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, SeanF said:

The TV adaptations  of Bernard Cornwell's Sharpe novels  do it quite well.  Sharpe quite frequently has to deal with issues of supply. either having to guard supply trains, or wrangling with dishonest quartermasters.

I love his novels

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, Mystical said:

What power couple? Jon is NO ONE politically. Dany is the only power in that couple. The only power Jon had was his King title. Without it he's a bastard with no titles, lands or castle. He shouldn't even be sitting at the damn high table anymore. WHO IS HE? NO ONE. Why is he still sitting there even next episode? Dany makes sense. Sansa makes sense. Jon makes no sense. He isn't even Warden of the North until Dany is actually sworn in as Queen of the 7K. So what power couple are you talking about? There is only one with power in there.

Even with the parents reveal, Jon is no one. I don't understand how D&D don't get the story this is based on. The Targs were disposed so they have no claim to the throne anymore, therefor neither does Jon. Rhaegar and Lyanna's wedding happened in secret without witnesses anyway which makes it not legal. Jon has no army of his own to enforce his non-existent right to the throne.

A secret marriage is still legal. And danny doesn t have to be queen of all 7 kingdoms to name the person responsable for the kingdoms she controls...

The only things nobody understands is why danny didn t just name jon warden of the north and/or her heir… In show logic it is what she should have done to make the northern happy...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

Just like they could have tried a bit harder with that whole Vale Army/Ramsay thing.

How about they try harder, period? Even S7 was royally stupid in that regard. Ok so Jon is a feminist for a hot second and decides training women/girls is now the new thing. And Lyanna Mormont doesn't want to be knitting by the fire while her men fight (girl, you have never fought on this show so shut up). This is all well and good. But who is going to make bandages? Who will take care of the wounded. And don't soldiers need clothing under that armor in the freaking winter? Are they having their troops fighting naked beneath the armor?

15 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

Creatively it made sense to us, because we wanted it to happen.

If only they actually were creative.

18 minutes ago, Risto said:

For some reason, I have chosen that this Sansa is the extension of Martin's Sansa.

I'm not sure because book!Sansa understands such things as courtesy. Book!Sansa also has a much higher social IQ than show Sansa and is a lot more intuitive. Think of Sansa in Battle of Blackwater, that was Martin's Sansa (literally since he wrote the episode). That's not the Sansa that's now on the show, and that goes for all the incarnations of her character. And God knows there are plenty.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, divica said:

The only things nobody understands is why danny didn t just name jon warden of the north and/or her heir… In show logic it is what she should have done to make the northern happy...

You bring up a great point about heir. As far as Dany knows, she can't have any kids. So who does she plan on leaving to rule when she dies? One of the first things a ruler should do when going to war is to make sure there is a line of succession.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, Bran Snow said:

You bring up a great point about heir. As far as Dany knows, she can't have any kids. So who does she plan on leaving to rule when she dies? One of the first things a ruler should do when going to war is to make sure there is a line of succession.

Even if could have kids. They are going to fight the biggest war of their time. She should have an heir in case she dies in the war… Naming jon her heir should have been sugested by someone after tyrion's obecession last season.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, Mystical said:

I'm not sure because book!Sansa understands such things as courtesy. Book!Sansa also has a much higher social IQ than show Sansa and is a lot more intuitive. Think of Sansa in Battle of Blackwater, that was Martin's Sansa (literally since he wrote the episode). That's not the Sansa that's now on the show, and that goes for all the incarnations of her character. And God knows there are plenty.

Yeah, I understand all of that and I understand how different the two versions are (I opened 30+ threads dedicated to the subject) and you are right. But, this Sansa, just like book Sansa, has my utmost loyalty :D 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, Mystical said:

I'm not sure because book!Sansa understands such things as courtesy. Book!Sansa also has a much higher social IQ than show Sansa and is a lot more intuitive. Think of Sansa in Battle of Blackwater, that was Martin's Sansa (literally since he wrote the episode). That's not the Sansa that's now on the show, and that goes for all the incarnations of her character. And God knows there are plenty.

But here you are touching about a very important issue. Book sansa understands politics. And politics are only a small part of ruling. Does anyone believe that sansa knows how to govern in the books? Has anyone thaught sansa how much she should tax her vassals? How to apply justice? And all the other things included in ruling a place?

However show sansa is nearly the oposite. In season 6 and 7 she doesn t understand people (thinks the northerns will blindly follow the starks, doesn t understand arya…) however somehow she becomes a good ruler...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, divica said:

A secret marriage is still legal. And danny doesn t have to be queen of all 7 kingdoms to name the person responsable for the kingdoms she controls...

The only things nobody understands is why danny didn t just name jon warden of the north and/or her heir… In show logic it is what she should have done to make the northern happy...

No, a secret marriage is not legal in the sense that it can be contested because there are no witnesses to it. Jesus Christ, even in our day and age witnesses are required when we get married. There are damn good reasons for that. When it comes to a feudal society that relies heavily on succession and inheritance, it's even more important that there be witnesses when the freaking crown prince gets married.

No, what I don't understand is why J/D didn't get married in S7 already. Political marriage would have solved the problem. So many people were saying that during S7. But since the show is written by morons, no one on Team Jon or Dany suggested it. Freaking Littlefinger, even at his worst written, was the only one to think of it. Davos thinking of it now is just idiotic. D&D can't use a character for that that was part of the brain fart of not thinking of that last Season. It should have come from Sansa or someone else who wasn't part of the Dragonstone storyline. And Jon did sign his letter to Sansa with WotN but again, it's a figurative title until Dany actually is the Queen of the 7K. Because Warden is a specific title that was made up by her ancestors who were Kings of the 7K. For this title to mean something or hold any weight politically, Dany needs to be Queen of the 7K first.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, Mystical said:

How about they try harder, period?

Well they might hurt themselves. So I guess I'll let them take baby steps.

 

5 minutes ago, Mystical said:

I'm not sure because book!Sansa understands such things as courtesy. Book!Sansa also has a much higher social IQ than show Sansa and is a lot more intuitive. Think of Sansa in Battle of Blackwater, that was Martin's Sansa (literally since he wrote the episode). That's not the Sansa that's now on the show, and that goes for all the incarnations of her character. And God knows there are plenty.

Eventually I got lazy, and stopped writing book!Sansa, to distinguish between book!Sansa and her show counterpart. Now there is just Sansa and Sandra. Agree there are some pretty big differences between Sansa and Sandra. I think Sansa would handle matters differently.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, divica said:

But here you are touching about a very important issue. Book sansa understands politics. And politics are only a small part of ruling. Does anyone believe that sansa knows how to govern in the books? Has anyone thaught sansa how much she should tax her vassals? How to apply justice? And all the other things included in ruling a place?

However show sansa is nearly the oposite. In season 6 and 7 she doesn t understand people (thinks the northerns will blindly follow the starks, doesn t understand arya…) however somehow she becomes a good ruler...

Book Sansa has been in charge of Eyrie, told to have excelled in her studies. Tyrion notices that she is quite good in social skills. Sansa is a kid and has a lot to learn but there is nothing to suggest that Sansa would be incapable of being a good ruler. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, Risto said:

Book Sansa has been in charge of Eyrie, told to have excelled in her studies. Tyrion notices that she is quite good in social skills. Sansa is a kid and has a lot to learn but there is nothing to suggest that Sansa would be incapable of being a good ruler. 

Seriously. Some people act as if certain things don't happen in the books either if it support their narrative. I don't get it.

12 minutes ago, divica said:

But here you are touching about a very important issue. Book sansa understands politics. And politics are only a small part of ruling. Does anyone believe that sansa knows how to govern in the books? Has anyone thaught sansa how much she should tax her vassals? How to apply justice? And all the other things included in ruling a place?

She doesn't need to know every little thing. That's why all the Kings and Lords have a council. No one can micro manage the entire Kingdom or even sometimes just part of it. Depending on the size, population and importance of the region in question...different people have different tasks that help the King or Lord run the land.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, Risto said:

Book Sansa has been in charge of Eyrie, told to have excelled in her studies. Tyrion notices that she is quite good in social skills. Sansa is a kid and has a lot to learn but there is nothing to suggest that Sansa would be incapable of being a good ruler. 

She wasn t in charge of the eyrie. She was in charge of the tournament which is a social event.

And what I am saying is that social skills aren t the same as rulling skills. Sansa has no experience in admistering justice, in taxing, in leading, in managing anything… In the books we actually see the dificulties that jon (who has been thought by ned alongside robb to rule) and danny (that has been leading a group of people for a while) face while leading. Sansa isn t learning how to deal with the details of rulling...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...