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dany and sansa


starklover

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2 minutes ago, Mystical said:

Seriously. Some people act as if certain things don't happen in the books either if it support their narrative. I don't get it.

She doesn't need to know every little thing. That's why all the Kings and Lords have a council. No one can micro manage the entire Kingdom or even sometimes just part of it. Depending on the size, population and importance of the region in question...different people have different tasks that help the King or Lord run the land.

And what does sansa know about managing Money? About aplying justice? about the importance of ships? about how to manage an army?

Book sansa doesn t know any of these things...

And being in charge of organizing a tourney isn t being in charge of the eyrie.

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10 minutes ago, divica said:

She wasn t in charge of the eyrie. She was in charge of the tournament which is a social event.

And what I am saying is that social skills aren t the same as rulling skills. Sansa has no experience in admistering justice, in taxing, in leading, in managing anything… In the books we actually see the dificulties that jon (who has been thought by ned alongside robb to rule) and danny (that has been leading a group of people for a while) face while leading. Sansa isn t learning how to deal with the details of rulling...

One of the things I like about book Jon was that he thought logistics and the future. He got a meeting with the Iron Bank to get a loan in order to buy food and supplies for the Night's Watch so they could get threw the winter.

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6 minutes ago, divica said:

She wasn t in charge of the eyrie. She was in charge of the tournament which is a social event.

And what I am saying is that social skills aren t the same as rulling skills. Sansa has no experience in admistering justice, in taxing, in leading, in managing anything… In the books we actually see the dificulties that jon (who has been thought by ned alongside robb to rule) and danny (that has been leading a group of people for a while) face while leading. Sansa isn t learning how to deal with the details of rulling...

The point was she had the potential, not that she had all the experience. Social skills aren't the same as ruling. But, then neither is managing money or leading armies (and there have been some generals that haven't turned out to be good political leaders in the real world by the way. Grant was effective as a general but largely a disaster as president) and so forth. Social skills are just one skill set among many a leader might have. Certainly, knowing when and how to broach a topic, rather than snarking publicly about it would be helpful, I should think.

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1 hour ago, Risto said:

For some reason, I have chosen that this Sansa is the extension of Martin's Sansa. And I put her actions in the context of who she is, or what road she is taking in the books. I know it may be absurd, but I do that . It works for me. I may be completely wrong, but then again, in this debate, we are all wrong. 

I really agree with this.  Given that the Alayne gift-chapter GRRM gave out has her learning about grain, and specifically grain in Winter/wartime and trading/selling of it, and that she was de facto lady of the house for Sweet Robin and LF after he killed Lysa, then her worrying about grain now would make more sense.  Sansa herself was attacked in the bread riots of KL as well as witnessing how the city responded to Margaery, based on the tyrell food wagons.  She knows how important food is to the masses.

Unfortunately, the show opted to change her storyline, to make her more badass and "interesting", but now that we are on what I consider to be her eventual book path, then it seems disjointed for the viewers.  I also think that the show runners were hyping Sansa as a potential betrayer for so long, to keep fake tension in s 6 and s7, that it's hard for them to come back from it, and for viewers to accept that Sansa is worried about the food for the people.  IT's not just about feeding armies - winter is coming, the longest winter in a long time (and seasons last years in Westeros), so all of the WF stockpile used on armies increases the liklihoods of other smallfolk, children and babies, starving before the long winter is over.  It's a long time to manage food stores for the entire north.  It's not just about the time for the battle.

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In the show they made her attempted rape part of the bread riots. Not that I like writers that use rape as a motivator, but I think they wanted to make food security personal for her. 

Sansa is a queen consort in training and a leader, I dont know why this was so hard to see. The Ramsay rewrite was a substitute for the Harry plot which put her on the path to Winterfell anyway. 

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6 hours ago, Mystical said:

The hell? Have you blinked on the show? The North was only eclipsed by the Riverlands as most devastated Kingdom since the show started. Remember that maybe a year ago or less they still had things like Battle of the Bastards where thousands died? There was also an Ironborn invasion before then. There was a Red Wedding. And the North is not the most fertile region for food.

Dany didn't even bring tents. Did you see any wagons in her entourage? Were the Unsullied carrying anything (tents, clothes, provisions)? No, all we saw was Dany and her army and the only wagon was the one that had Tyrion and Varys in it. So not only will the North have to provide food, but clothes and tents as well.

But Sansa is the one who is ungrateful and in the wrong here? LMFAO. Honestly, you make no sense.

Much ado about nothing. I'm not sure about you, but I prefer that they don't spend an entire episode explaining away the technical support and how they plan on feeding everybody when it could all be done offscreen, with merely a one line mention in the show. I also don't need to see tents to be convinced they brought there own. We didn't see wagons....so what? Technically, we didn't see 120,000 men either. maybe the wagons are with the other 90,000 men we didn't see, you know, at the end of the progression? 

Perhaps Vary's has arranged a large shipment of supplies from Illyrio Mopatis, or Mel has traveled to Volantis to ask Kinvarna for help with these matters. maybe Mareen or Dorne is still helping on the supply side of the equation? It would not be unfounded that Dany does by now have some financial backing, after all, what has Vary's been doing behind the scenes the last 2 years? 

If WF can feed 20,000+ of it's own people for over a year, They can feed 140,000 people for three months at least, and that's assuming Dany brought in zero food, and has no methods of acquiring any more, which is highly doubtful.That's not to mention we hear Sansa make mention that they had enough food to last 1 year when speaking to little finger and had plans to bring even more food in, so it's safe to say they added to that as well. 

Add to this fact that an extremely high mortality rate is about to be encountered, and that 140,000 people is looking to be 50,000 or less in three days. 

Waaa Waaa Waaa, people are spending way to much time on this. 

 

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2 hours ago, Mystical said:

Except that this makes no sense, timeline wise. Dany arrived the same day Ned Umber left WF to get to last Hearth. Tormund's and Edd's groups make it to Last Hearth when Ned Umber is already dead. You don't travel in a day to Last Hearth, especially in winter. The travel to and from Last Hearth should encompass weeks, not days.

And Dany doesn't? LOL. Btw who has threatened whom over not having their boots licked? Pretty sure that was Dany who wasn't even subtle in her death threats. Or maybe we watched different episodes.

Do you even understand young Sansa's dreams of being Queen? It wasn't about power. It was about being a good wife, bearing children and taking care of the house hold and what not. How is that in any way related to things now?

And guess what. Titles in their society are there for a reason. Jesus Christ, Jon himself said last Season that the North won't accept a southern ruler. The Lords already were rumbling about Jon's absence and non-communication but Sansa was keeping them together and the Vale Lords on board after LF death's. Jon is going on and on about a unified stand, well guess what genius, you bending the knee shot that all to hell. And he KNEW it, he said they won't accept her before any knee bending took place. So why bend the knee then, especially if it was not a requirement of Dany's help and knowing it will not go over well in the North? I wish people would stop looking at this as Dany vs Sansa because the real idiot is actually Jon, D&D just as usual throw the women under the bus for this emo, boring snowflake. He goes on and on about unification but doesn't seem to understand in the slightest what society they live in, that certain things do matter (like titles/ranks), especially in a situation like the current one where ranks and delegation is the only way to ensure a unified stand.

Maybe because the 120,000 soldiers and two dragons are more significant than the 1,000 soldiers that are butt hurt and went home? 

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44 minutes ago, Error-504 said:

If WF can feed 20,000+ of it's own people for over a year, They can feed 140,000 people for three months at least, and that's assuming Dany brought in zero food, and has no methods of acquiring any more, which is highly doubtful. That's not to mention we hear Sansa make mention that they had enough food to last 1 year when speaking to little finger and had plans to bring even more food in, so it's safe to say they added to that as well. 

Add to this fact that an extremely high mortality rate is about to be encountered, and that 140,000 people is looking to be 50,000 or less in three days. 

Waaa Waaa Waaa, people are spending way to much time on this. 

:agree:

People are really thinking too hard about this. 
It can be explained as seen above (Sansa did mention how much food they had, I forgot about that - and it's clearly enough to feed the entire "human army" for a good amount of time) and if not ... suspension of disbelief guys. 

"We didn't see them bring any food or tents", no but we didn't see either of them take a piss either.
They're now all dead due to bursted bladders. 

Edit: Found the clip.

Before even bringing in food from other sources around the north, Winterfell had food for a year

The show is making a bigger fuss about this than it should be, all in the name of #fake-WF-drama. 
 

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3 hours ago, Mystical said:

What power couple? Jon is NO ONE politically. Dany is the only power in that couple. The only power Jon had was his King title. Without it he's a bastard with no titles, lands or castle. He shouldn't even be sitting at the damn high table anymore. WHO IS HE? NO ONE. Why is he still sitting there even next episode? Dany makes sense. Sansa makes sense. Jon makes no sense. He isn't even Warden of the North until Dany is actually sworn in as Queen of the 7K. So what power couple are you talking about? There is only one with power in there.

 

Wow, this argument is so off base I don't know where to start. It looks more like a rant by a 12 year old than anything resembling a well thought out response.

1) Dany is the only one with Power politically?

Seriously? The fact of the matter is, Sansa is the one without any power. Despite any of your simplistic claims to the contrary. Sansa might have a claim to some localized power, but currently WF is under Marital Law. As such she has only the powers alloted to her from Jon, and nothing else. but then again, you have never really understood how things work during war, your posts show this time after time. 

Jon, at the very least, is battle commander of all the ground forces. As to what power structure that him and Dany have agreed too off screen isn't really that hard to figure out. if he isn't warden of the North until Dany is sworn in, as you suggest, then he is still KotN, You can't have it both ways. As of right now, the two are allies, with a common goal.

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Rhaegar and Lyanna's wedding happened in secret without witnesses anyway which makes it not legal. Jon has no army of his own to enforce his non-existent right to the throne.

Where do yo come up with this nonsense? Rhaegars and Lyanna's wedding was not legal...SMDH. It did have a witness, a maester to be exact, that recorded the wedding. It is very legal, even by today's standards. Why would Same and Bran both agree that Jon is the legitimate heir if this were not the case? do you not think they are current with the laws in regards to legal marriage in Westeros? Good grief. I could get married in a secret ceremony as long as the one conducting the ceremony is licensed, and the proper paperwork filed. Lyanna and Rhaegar did exactly this. 

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Even with the parents reveal, Jon is no one. I don't understand how D&D don't get the story this is based on. The Targs were disposed so they have no claim to the throne anymore, therefor neither does Jon.

This is the only part of your post that has merit. But Robert was chosen as King because he had the most Targaryan blood in his family tree, so obviously it still means something. If it meant absolutely nothing, as you are trying to suggest, why are Bran and Sam calling him the rightful heir? Or are they just idiots as well? But ultimately I do believe it will come down to who wins the Iron Throne by conquest, of a completely new system of government will be issued in making the whole discussion mute. 

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4 hours ago, divica said:

A secret marriage is still legal. And danny doesn t have to be queen of all 7 kingdoms to name the person responsable for the kingdoms she controls...

The only things nobody understands is why danny didn t just name jon warden of the north and/or her heir… In show logic it is what she should have done to make the northern happy...

 

A secret marriage may or may not be legal, but if it's secret, and there is no proof, and the bride and groom are dead, and no one knows who performed the marriage, the marriage may not be recognized.  I sincerely doubt that Daenerys and her tens of thousands of supporters are going to believe that Jon is the legitimate Targaryen heir because that strange Stark boy says he saw a Rhaegar-Lyanna marriage in a vision.  I could see even the Northerners who have supported Jon's leadership scratching their heads over Bran's testimony.  

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2 hours ago, Error-504 said:

Wow, this argument is so off base I don't know where to start. It looks more like a rant by a 12 year old than anything resembling a well thought out response.

1) Dany is the only one with Power politically?

Seriously? The fact of the matter is, Sansa is the one without any power. Despite any of your simplistic claims to the contrary. Sansa might have a claim to some localized power, but currently WF is under Marital Law. As such she has only the powers alloted to her from Jon, and nothing else. but then again, you have never really understood how things work during war, your posts show this time after time. 

Jon, at the very least, is battle commander of all the ground forces. As to what power structure that him and Dany have agreed too off screen isn't really that hard to figure out. if he isn't warden of the North until Dany is sworn in, as you suggest, then he is still KotN, You can't have it both ways. As of right now, the two are allies, with a common goal.

Where do yo come up with this nonsense? Rhaegars and Lyanna's wedding was not legal...SMDH. It did have a witness, a maester to be exact, that recorded the wedding. It is very legal, even by today's standards. Why would Same and Bran both agree that Jon is the legitimate heir if this were not the case? do you not think they are current with the laws in regards to legal marriage in Westeros? Good grief. I could get married in a secret ceremony as long as the one conducting the ceremony is licensed, and the proper paperwork filed. Lyanna and Rhaegar did exactly this. 

This is the only part of your post that has merit. But Robert was chosen as King because he had the most Targaryan blood in his family tree, so obviously it still means something. If it meant absolutely nothing, as you are trying to suggest, why are Bran and Sam calling him the rightful heir? Or are they just idiots as well? But ultimately I do believe it will come down to who wins the Iron Throne by conquest, of a completely new system of government will be issued in making the whole discussion mute. 

 

I thought that the maester whose diary was found by Gilly just recorded the annulment of the marriage of Rhaegar and Elia.  When Sam first discussed Jon's true parentage with Bran, Sam believed that Jon was a bastard with the surname "Sand" instead of "Snow" since Jon was born in Dorne; Sam had not seen any written proof of the marriage of Rhaegar and Lyanna.

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1 hour ago, Raksha 2014 said:

 

A secret marriage may or may not be legal, but if it's secret, and there is no proof, and the bride and groom are dead, and no one knows who performed the marriage, the marriage may not be recognized.  I sincerely doubt that Daenerys and her tens of thousands of supporters are going to believe that Jon is the legitimate Targaryen heir because that strange Stark boy says he saw a Rhaegar-Lyanna marriage in a vision.  I could see even the Northerners who have supported Jon's leadership scratching their heads over Bran's testimony.  

A secret marriage is always legal. It may not be recognized, but it is legal.

And with sam there are documents about the anulment and marriage… And then we have jon riding dragons… And all this doesn t include whatever else bran might have seen that can provide us more proof… Like howland reed or other people that witnessed the events.

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3 hours ago, Error-504 said:

This is the only part of your post that has merit. But Robert was chosen as King because he had the most Targaryan blood in his family tree, so obviously it still means something. If it meant absolutely nothing, as you are trying to suggest, why are Bran and Sam calling him the rightful heir? Or are they just idiots as well? But ultimately I do believe it will come down to who wins the Iron Throne by conquest, of a completely new system of government will be issued in making the whole discussion mute. 

I don't think that is GRRM's intent. We know he wrote his story based loosely on War of the Roses and at the end of it was a more powerful centralized monarchy since so many great houses were destroyed during it.

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1 hour ago, Raksha 2014 said:

 

I thought that the maester whose diary was found by Gilly just recorded the annulment of the marriage of Rhaegar and Elia.  When Sam first discussed Jon's true parentage with Bran, Sam believed that Jon was a bastard with the surname "Sand" instead of "Snow" since Jon was born in Dorne; Sam had not seen any written proof of the marriage of Rhaegar and Lyanna.

You got this twisted. Bran thought Jon was a sand, not Sam. Bran knew Jon was Rhaegar and Lyanna's son. what he didn't know was about the annulment and the legal wedding, this is the information Sam provided. Sam had no idea the two had a baby. 

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2 hours ago, Raksha 2014 said:

 

A secret marriage may or may not be legal, but if it's secret, and there is no proof, and the bride and groom are dead, and no one knows who performed the marriage, the marriage may not be recognized.  I sincerely doubt that Daenerys and her tens of thousands of supporters are going to believe that Jon is the legitimate Targaryen heir because that strange Stark boy says he saw a Rhaegar-Lyanna marriage in a vision.  I could see even the Northerners who have supported Jon's leadership scratching their heads over Bran's testimony.  

Maybe, maybe not. There are literally thousands of ways to interpret this vision here:

Dany walks into a war torn KL. Note the Seven pointed start above the throne (not the current sygil of house lannister). Snow is on the throne and she turns away, never to sit on it. She thens go's to visit her child.........

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6 hours ago, MinscS2 said:

 

 

Thank you for the reminder. This shows how smart Sansa is operating. Everyone now keeps telling she doesn't have any power. Aren't they all taking her very seriously? Too bad I didn't rewatch the show before the new season started, I would have remembered better how things were.

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"She's come across some frosty people in her life, but she's been able to kind of get rid of them. She can't get rid of these guys. They just simply don't like her and how can you fight against that? You can't. That's a bitter pill to swallow because at this point her ego is at a place that doesn't handle that too great. But her love for Jon is the thing that allows her to take that breath and try--try--to make friends." -Emilia in the Behind the Scenes video

Out of the mouth of babes. Dany doesn't give a damn about the North. It sucks for her that she can't get rid of them because Jon clearly wouldn't approve. So basically the only stopping her from killing them all is that sweet Jon loving.

Jon in S7: They will come to see you for what you are.

Maybe Jonny boy, you should see her for what she actually is.

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3 hours ago, Deminelle said:

Thank you for the reminder. This shows how smart Sansa is operating. Everyone now keeps telling she doesn't have any power. Aren't they all taking her very seriously? Too bad I didn't rewatch the show before the new season started, I would have remembered better how things were.

The issue I see with this clip is that Sansa, while making some valid points, is also making a big fuss over something that, in the current grand scheme of things, isn't really worth the tension it causes. It's an issue, but not a massive one.

If WF had "enough food for a year", it's safe to assume that it now has enough food to supply the northern army for at least 2-3 months, which with the NK approaching, is good enough in the current situation.

If D&D remembered their own writing from S7 (sadly not a guarantee), then Sansa making a snarky remark about food is clearly only a jab at Daenerys, and a way to score cheap points in front of the northern lords.

Unless she forgot the fact that they might all be dead very soon, in which case she's one of the biggest idiots on the show...

1 hour ago, Mystical said:

Out of the mouth of babes. Dany doesn't give a damn about the North. It sucks for her that she can't get rid of them because Jon clearly wouldn't approve. So basically the only stopping her from killing them all is that sweet Jon loving.

Haha, what!? How did you come to the conclusion that "The northerners don't like Dany, so she wants to kill them all" from that quote?
When has Daenerys killed people, let a lone a whole region, only because they didn't really like her?

Emilia basically said that Daenerys will humble herself in the eyes of the northerners in order to try and make them like her.
Feels like a pretty far cry from "I want to kill you all but my boyfriend wouldn't like it so I wont."

 

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4 minutes ago, MinscS2 said:

If WF had "enough food for a year", it's safe to assume that it now has enough food to supply the northern army for at least 2-3 months, which with the NK approaching, is good enough in the current situation.

If D&D remembered their own writing from S7 (sadly not a guarantee), then Sansa making a snarky remark about food is clearly only a jab at Daenerys, and a way to score cheap points in front of the northern lords.

And this is only valid point because the War for Dawn seems to be only ONE BATTLE. In books, War for Dawn lasted for a generation but it is much condensed in the series.

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7 minutes ago, Risto said:

And this is only valid point because the War for Dawn seems to be only ONE BATTLE. In books, War for Dawn lasted for a generation but it is much condensed in the series.

What happens in the books is irrelevant, the show became it's own thing a long time ago.
For all we (and Jon) knows, the War for the Dawn (and winter) ends when the NK dies, which could theoretically happen within 2 weeks.

I saw some try to make a case about how defeating the NK and the AotD means nothing if they all starve afterwards, which seems a bit strange to me.
Yeah ultimately everyone in the north would die in either case, but in one of the cases evil is vanquished, but everyone south of the neck lives on, and in the other case, evil lives on and everyone in Westeros dies, not just the northerners.
Seems like a pretty big difference to me.

But then again, S7 made it clear that WF has enough food to supply everyone there for the time being. 
Worrying about "maybes" at this stage seems a bit trite. 

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