dany and sansa

[Mystical]

4 minutes ago, Mrmanick1182 said:

And how do you think the very first king of the north was ever chosen? Was he born into a position that didnt even exist yet or was he chosen by his people to lead them like jon snow was? 

Well you seem to know so enlighten me. How did that person become King?

ETA: I'm guessing your point is that the first KitN was chosen by the people or the Lords. But that just supports my point and invalidates yours. Torren inherited, Jon was voted into office. So the North now operates on choosing their leader therefor they don't have to accept Dany as anything. They didn't chose her or vote for her.

[Raksha 2014]

19 minutes ago, Ice Queen said:

Respect must be earned. She's not automatically entitled to anything, although she may think the sun rises and sets on herself. She's just usurped the King in the North. Do you expect the northerners to be happy about it? They pledged their loyalty to Jon, not to her. 

I don't blame Sansa for being pissed off. She's just spent how many months trying to hold the North together while Jon goes off cavorting with his lady love. And to find out it was all for nothing...and they have to feed 10,000 more people and two dragons, all in winter. 

She has a right to be upset and angry. 

 

Sansa has seen first-hand what happens when a large number of people don't have enough to eat; she was almost raped and killed in the riot in King's Landing.  Imagine if, instead of peasants, thousands of Dothraki went nuts due to privation/starvation?  There's no force that could contain them except possibly the Unsullied, and the damage they could do to the people of the North would be devastating.  I don't blame Sansa for being upset and angry; especially since the North was already stretched, in winter, for food supply.

[Mrmanick1182]

13 minutes ago, Mystical said:

Well you seem to know so enlighten me. How did that person become King?

Admittedly I dont know but that was sarcasm. Meaning, I dont need to know exactly how he became king to know that he wasnt born into a position that does not exist. That just doesnt make sense. The first king would of either had to usurp power or he was chosen. But he definitely wasnt born into a position that did not exist. I can say that with 100% certainty. 

All this to say that you logic about "torren being born into his crown so its not the same" holds no water because his crown would have derived from the very first king who definitely was not born into the position. 

 

[Crona]

Why is Sansa, Varys, and Tyrion even in Winterfell? They should be taking other people who can’t fight to the south to be far from the fighting and protect themselves

[Mrmanick1182]

16 minutes ago, Mystical said:

Well you seem to know so enlighten me. How did that person become King?

ETA: I'm guessing your point is that the first KitN was chosen by the people or the Lords. But that just supports my point and invalidates yours. Torren inherited, Jon was voted into office. So the North now operates on choosing their leader therefor they don't have to accept Dany as anything. They didn't chose her or vote for her.

Yes, they chose jon as their king but that does not suddenly imply this is now a democracy. They chose him as King. Its still a monarchy. If jon died and had heirs i doubt their would be another "vote" as you say. His heir would be king and so on and so on. Thats a monarchy. And if their king surrenders his crown so do they. They have sworn to follow their king and his decision like it or not. Not follow him when it convenient and abandon when its not. If this is how the north operates then they are not as honorable as everyone claims them to. 

[King Jon Snow Stark]

3 minutes ago, Mrmanick1182 said:

Yes, they chose jon as their king but that does not suddenly imply this is now a democracy. They chose him as King. Its still a monarchy. If jon died and had heirs i doubt their would be another "vote" as you say. His heir would be king and so on and so on. Thats a monarchy. And if their king surrenders his crown so do they. They have sworn to follow their king and his decision like it or not. Not follow him when it convenient and abandon when its not. If this is how the north operates then they are not as honorable as everyone claims them to. 

It seems like most of the North is still following him. They seem to want to continue to follow House Stark. Even while bitching. 

[Mladen]

4 minutes ago, Mrmanick1182 said:

Yes, they chose jon as their king but that does not suddenly imply this is now a democracy. They chose him as King. Its still a monarchy. If jon died and had heirs i doubt their would be another "vote" as you say. His heir would be king and so on and so on. Thats a monarchy. And if their king surrenders his crown so do they. They have sworn to follow their king and his decision like it or not. Not follow him when it convenient and abandon when its not. If this is how the north operates then they are not as honorable as everyone claims them to. 

To remind everyone, EVEN Robb knew that is not how that worked.

[LucyMormont]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

There is no reason for this entire conflict. These people don't know each other and the obvious solution for this conundrum is to propose THE FUCKING AND OBVIOUS MARRIAGE ALLIANCE!

How stupid do you have to be to not realize this?!

You only need to be a character written by D&D to have enough stupidity for not realizing this. After having Tyrion mentioning the necessity of  a convenient marriage alliance with a Westerosi for Danaerys in season 6, they made all characters ignore this throughout the whole season 7, portraying all the conselours of both, and Jon and Dani themselves, as complete idiots. Not the biggest thing that made their stupidity stand out, but you get the point

And then made Davos to come up with the idea, way too late.

[Mystical]

15 minutes ago, LucyMormont said:

You only need to be a character written by D&D to have enough stupidity for not realizing this. After having Tyrion mentioning the necessity of  a convenient marriage alliance with a Westerosi for Danaerys in season 6, they made all characters ignore this throughout the whole season 7, portraying all the conselours of both, and Jon and Dani themselves, as complete idiots. Not the biggest thing that made their stupidity stand out, but you get the point

And then made Davos to come up with the idea, way too late.

Isn't it funny that LF of all people, even when he was written the dumbest he ever was, suggested a Dany/Jon marriage last Season. He was literally the only one to even use that word. Hence one of my predictions for this Season was that it would fall to Sansa to suggest this very obvious solution. It made no sense for Davos to be the one to suggest it now, since he was just as stupid as Jon and Dany and her advisors last Season.

Seriously, a lot of this stupid drama could have been salvaged if anyone thought of this obvious marriage alliance.

[Martell Spy]

8 minutes ago, Mystical said:

Isn't it funny that LF of all people, even when he was written the dumbest he ever was, suggested a Dany/Jon marriage last Season. He was literally the only one to even use that word. Hence one of my predictions for this Season was that it would fall to Sansa to suggest this very obvious solution. It made no sense for Davos to be the one to suggest it now, since he was just as stupid as Jon and Dany and her advisors last Season.

Seriously, a lot of this stupid drama could have been salvaged if anyone thought of this obvious marriage alliance.

This is one of those rare times you miss Twyin Lannister. If he was still running things, every major living character would have been forcibly married off.

[Mystical]

3 minutes ago, Martell Spy said:

This is one of those rare times you miss Twyin Lannister. If he was still running things, every major living character would have been forcibly married off.

Nah, Tywin would be just as ruined as all the other characters on the show if he was still around. He would be advocating for 'marriage but only if you love each other' if he was still alive now.

[Mrmanick1182]

1 minute ago, Mystical said:

Nah, Tywin would be just as ruined as all the other characters on the show if he was still around. He would be advocating for 'marriage but only if you love each other' if he was still alive now.

You are probably right and that is just sad really. What the writing has become. 

[Lord Varys]

Last season they had that silly pseudo-conflict between Jon, Sansa, and Arya, right? Didn't Sansa then resent the idea of 'King Jon' for no good reason, wanting to rule the North herself (and being rejected at that for no good reason whatsoever)? So, why on earth does she not ingratiate herself with Queen Daenerys trying to become the new effectual ruler of the North once Jon joins his new sweetheart in the capital?

It is utterly nonsensical, worse even than the stuff bad soap writers come up with.

[Mystical]

2 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Last season they had that silly pseudo-conflict between Jon, Sansa, and Arya, right? Didn't Sansa then resent the idea of 'King Jon' for no good reason, wanting to rule the North herself (and being rejected at that for no good reason whatsoever)? So, why on earth does she not ingratiate herself with Queen Daenerys trying to become the new effectual ruler of the North once Jon joins his new sweetheart in the capital? 

It is utterly nonsensical, worse even than the stuff bad soap writers come up with.

When did Sansa resent Jon being King? And when did she want to rule the North herself? What are you even talking about?

[Lord Varys]

1 minute ago, Mystical said:

When did Sansa resent Jon being King? And when did she want to rule the North herself? What are you even talking about?

Didn't Sansa want to be the ruler back when Ramsay was defeated? Wasn't she pissed that the lords for some stupid reason chose Jon, no Stark and an oathbreaker at that? That's the message they sent back that, just as the message throughout last season was that Sansa was not happy having to play a secondary role besides - or rather beneath - Jon. Arya did even point blank accuse Sansa of trying to betray Jon back then - also without motivation and reason because in the framework of the story Harrington simply has no right to rule the North. He isn't a Stark.

[Every Last Chicken]

8 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Didn't Sansa want to be the ruler back when Ramsay was defeated? Wasn't she pissed that the lords for some stupid reason chose Jon, no Stark and an oathbreaker at that? That's the message they sent back that, just as the message throughout last season was that Sansa was not happy having to play a secondary role besides - or rather beneath - Jon. Arya did even point blank accuse Sansa of trying to betray Jon back then - also without motivation and reason because in the framework of the story Harrington simply has no right to rule the North. He isn't a Stark.

It was a little different than that. The conflict was more between Littlefinger, Sansa and Arya. When the northern lords announced Jon as their leader, she actually has a smile on her face and looks proud of her brother, right until she looks over and locks eyes with Littlefinger, who is giving her the "I told you so" look. From then on its LF trying to plant seeds of doubt in her and turn Arya against her by leaving a copy of her old letter (the one she was forced to write under Cersei/Jeoffrey's eye to Robb) for her to find. Jon is gone to dragonstone so he's not really involved in any of this. 

Admittedly it could have been done much better had there been more dialog between the sisters and Bran to slowly uncover LF playing them, but they left a bunch to be interpreted off screen and it looked like crap writing by the end of it and forced drama. The writer's tried to hard to get the audeince to think that Sansa was going to punish Arya, when in reality they planned to execute LF the entire time. 

[Mystical]

10 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Didn't Sansa want to be the ruler back when Ramsay was defeated? Wasn't she pissed that the lords for some stupid reason chose Jon, no Stark and an oathbreaker at that? That's the message they sent back that, just as the message throughout last season was that Sansa was not happy having to play a secondary role besides - or rather beneath - Jon. Arya did even point blank accuse Sansa of trying to betray Jon back then - also without motivation and reason because in the framework of the story Harrington simply has no right to rule the North. He isn't a Stark.

No, Sansa did not want to be ruler. Her and Jon on the battlements had her saying Jon should have the Lord's chamber and Jon said it should be hers as Lady of WF. A title btw which she inherited and has every right to. But there was no indication she wanted to rule the North in S6, in fact when Jon was proclaimed King he looked to her and she smiled at him in reassurance.

In S7 Jon neglected to form an actual council and discuss his decisions before presenting them in open court. He forgot they need to present a unified front. That's why the Karstark/Umber issue was that public. Jon/Davos/Sansa agreed that Jon would not go South because it was a trap. Only for Jon to then suddenly announce in court that he was going without telling Sansa or Davos beforehand. He then sprang the Regency on Sansa as if he's asking her to take care of his plants because he's going on a vacation. Bran came back and she immediately gave up her title of LoW. The Northern Lords grew restless with Jon's absence and radio silence and suggested that maybe Sansa should take over. Sansa declined, reiterating that Jon was their King. Arya thought Sansa wanted power because she didn't CUT OFF the heads of those Lords for suggesting replacing Jon.

So no, nothing suggested that she wanted to rule. LoW is her title by inheritance, not because she wanted it and she gave it to Bran immediately. She was fine with Jon becoming King but she had issues with how he was handling things. She didn't ask for the Regency either. Neither did she ask to become Queen, the Lords suggested it. Nothing that was actually on screen suggested Sansa wanted to rule or was power hungry. It was just what a lot of haters were spewing about (because of character hate and actor interviews hyping something that wasn't on screen).

[Gertrude]

1 hour ago, Mystical said:

You really need to learn what sarcasm is. Or at least 'over exaggerating'.

The irony of this comment is delicious.

I thought the emote made it clear that I was just having some fun.

[Lord Varys]

No, back during the King in the North scene Sansa is actually expecting that they would make her the ruler, considering she is the Stark there. Jon isn't a Stark. Instead, those guys just dismiss her because she was forced into a Lannister marriage and then in this Bolton travesty thing. She is pissed about that. That was a real thing - back then. Now nobody cares about that anymore.

Even if she never had any intention of ruling the North herself - what issues does Sansa Stark have with Daenerys Targaryen?

Absolutely none. They never met, they never interacted with each other, they have no connection, good or bad, whatsoever.

It makes no sense to set this thing up as a conflict. Just as it makes no sense to assume that there is a difference between the King in the North and the Lord of Winterfell. Because, you know, with Jon bending the knee like Torrhen Stark he should be Lord of Winterfell now, not Sansa. Instead he is apparently and stupidly nothing now. What kind of king was Jon back in the last season if he didn't even own his castle?

[Tianzi]

Wow, that was irky.

That Sansa and Dany are snipping at each other like snotty middle-schoolers, is for the same reason why we have so many dick jokes and why we haven't seen any wit of Tyrion from several seasons - the general quality of the writing. But the drama in itself leaves me amazed how, after all those seasons and supposed life lessons, everyone sucks at basic diplomacy.

So, Sansa, while some of her concerns are valid, maybe shouldn't publicly undermine Daenerys or complain that her army and dragons need to eat. Does she hope for the dragons and the army to leave? I'd like to remind that the Night King also has a dragon at this point.

Daenerys conceitment and threats to Sansa made me cringe. Yes, the North needs her. But for this alliance to work, you need to sell some image to the locals, who see you as a suspicious, stinky foreigner. Sansa is a Stark. The acting Lady of Winterfell actually. They are at Winterfell. All the allies are the Northeners or brought by the Tully connection. Sansa is basically voicing what many of the Northeners think. Is Daenerys going to execute her because she doesn't like her tone? Good luck.

And finally Jon, who might have brought Daenerys for better reasons than thinking with his dick, but does nothing to make it appear so. Instead of employing himself and the Dragon Queen forces to show everyone how they get on the saving the world business, they are strolling around like a pair of Instagram influencers, looking pretty and giving everyone the impression that romance is the most urgent, and the war can wait. Way to increase his troops' support if even his #1 fan, Arya, starts to fear that Jon might forget his family loyalty.

 

Well, on the bright side, Sophie's 'you must have rolled in a rabbit poo' look at Emilia is somewhat enjoyable.