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dany and sansa

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3 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

No, back during the King in the North scene Sansa is actually expecting that they would make her the ruler, considering she is the Stark there. Jon isn't a Stark. Instead, those guys just dismiss her because she was forced into a Lannister marriage and then in this Bolton travesty thing. She is pissed about that. That was a real thing - back then. Now nobody cares about that anymore.

I saw nothing on my screen that Sansa expected to be made ruler. Maybe somewhere inside she did but I wouldn't know. If you can point me to dialogue where that is made clear, feel free. The only who said she should be Queen was LF, not Sansa. I'm pretty sure Sansa was happy not being made Queen, as that took one domino away from LF who expected her to become QitN and then his Queen after. But when Jon was proclaimed King she was happy smiles and only got an 'oh shit' look on her face when she noticed LF in the corner, knowing he would be a problem still.

7 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Just as it makes no sense to assume that there is a difference between the King in the North and the Lord of Winterfell. Because, you know, with Jon bending the knee like Torrhen Stark he should be Lord of Winterfell now, not Sansa. Instead he is apparently and stupidly nothing now. What kind of king was Jon back in the last season if he didn't even own his castle?

Well clearly there is a difference between the titles. WF is one castle in the North, the North is an entire Kingdom. Robb was both LoW and KitN because he was the inheritor of the LoW title after Ned died and he was voted to be King by the Northern Lords. Sansa is by law LoW but that doesn't mean she is also QitN automatically. But this really isn't the thread to talk about this. And the whole story of Jon becoming King makes no sense in the show anyway. So there isn't really anything to explain that mess.

11 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Even if she never had any intention of ruling the North herself - what issues does Sansa Stark have with Daenerys Targaryen?

Absolutely none. They never met, they never interacted with each other, they have no connection, good or bad, whatsoever.

And because they never met, there is no reason to embrace each other and braid the others hair. Family history is a thing. Jon and Dany in their first meeting also discussed family history, lets not forget. And everyone is aware of what Dany's ultimate goal is. The IT and ruler of the 7 Kingdoms. The 7 Kingdoms include the North. Same North that wants it's independence. Also a legitimate question is what Dany did to get Jon to offer up his crown. Did she threaten to burn the North down? That's a situation Jon could have and should have diffused, what with all the coldness Dany was getting, if he had told the truth. That Dany had pledged to fight for the North (for the moment) without asking Jon to bend the knee. But he neglected to give Dany that PR boost so the Northerners are free think whatever they want, including that Dany (like her father) threatened to burn it all down.

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19 minutes ago, Mystical said:

I saw nothing on my screen that Sansa expected to be made ruler. Maybe somewhere inside she did but I wouldn't know. If you can point me to dialogue where that is made clear, feel free. The only who said she should be Queen was LF, not Sansa. I'm pretty sure Sansa was happy not being made Queen, as that took one domino away from LF who expected her to become QitN and then his Queen after. But when Jon was proclaimed King she was happy smiles and only got an 'oh shit' look on her face when she noticed LF in the corner, knowing he would be a problem still.

Oh, I'm not going to watch that stuff again. I think she looked expectingly when the council scene where Jon was made king started, expecting to be the one who became queen - which she should have been, considering she defeated Ramsay, not Jon. Her men saved Jon's ass, after all. She is not completely unhappy with Jon taking charge, but she certainly would have preferred to call the shots herself.

19 minutes ago, Mystical said:

Well clearly there is a difference between the titles. WF is one castle in the North, the North is an entire Kingdom. Robb was both LoW and KitN because he was the inheritor of the LoW title after Ned died and he was voted to be King by the Northern Lords. Sansa is by law LoW but that doesn't mean she is also QitN automatically. But this really isn't the thread to talk about this. And the whole story of Jon becoming King makes no sense in the show anyway. So there isn't really anything to explain that mess.

But it makes no sense in the context of this world. There are no kings without castles in this world, and as king Jon most definitely would also be Lord of Winterfell - especially since as king he could just take it by fiat.

19 minutes ago, Mystical said:

And because they never met, there is no reason to embrace each other and braid the others hair. Family history is a thing. Jon and Dany in their first meeting also discussed family history, lets not forget. And everyone is aware of what Dany's ultimate goal is. The IT and ruler of the 7 Kingdoms. The 7 Kingdoms include the North. Same North that wants it's independence. Also a legitimate question is what Dany did to get Jon to offer up his crown. Did she threaten to burn the North down? That's a situation Jon could have and should have diffused, what with all the coldness Dany was getting, if he had told the truth. That Dany had pledged to fight for the North (for the moment) without asking Jon to bend the knee. But he neglected to give Dany that PR boost so the Northerners are free think whatever they want, including that Dany (like her father) threatened to burn it all down.

Dead family history. There are no personal grudges between the living Targaryens and Starks. All people involved in that stuff are dead. And there was no buildup whatsoever in the show about Sansa and Arya - or really any of the Stark children - having any issues with Dany or Viserys.

Sansa could, in previous seasons, differentiate between Joffrey and Tommen, could she not? One was a monster and the other was a nice guy. Surely this kind of, well, basic ability of human beings could also apply here.

Nobody has anything against legitimate and reasonable tension - but just as the tension in the last season between the Stark siblings this thing here is just a distraction. It won't go anywhere and only serves as filler until the series is over. Because there is really no substance to any of those 'conflicts' and 'grudges'.

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9 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Sansa could, in previous seasons, differentiate between Joffrey and Tommen, could she not? One was a monster and the other was a nice guy. Surely this kind of, well, basic ability of human beings could also apply here.

Nobody has anything against legitimate and reasonable tension - but just as the tension in the last season between the Stark siblings this thing here is just a distraction. It won't go anywhere and only serves as filler until the series is over. Because there is really no substance to any of those 'conflicts' and 'grudges'.

You are asking for characters to be characters in a plot driven show. That's not ever going to happen, especially not in a D&D run show. Of course it's all pointless but that's D&D for you.

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Not gonna lie, I expected there to be me more tension between Daenerys and Sansa in this episode than what there actually was.

Something that did bother me though is that the show now apparently wants us to believe that Sansa is super-smart.

Regardless of what Sansa might think of Daenerys, and regardless if Daenerys needs the north as much as the north needs her, the north is screwed without Dany's dragons and armies - so showing noticeable attitude towards the only person who can save you in this scenario is not something a smart person would do - and it never will be, regardless of how many characters there are telling me how smart and clever Sansa is. 

*Sigh*
I'm so tired of fake-drama in Winterfell.

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23 minutes ago, MinscS2 said:

Not gonna lie, I expected there to be me more tension between Daenerys and Sansa in this episode than what there actually was.

Something that did bother me though is that the show now apparently wants us to believe that Sansa is super-smart.

Regardless of what Sansa might think of Daenerys, and regardless if Daenerys needs the north as much as the north needs her, the north is screwed without Dany's dragons and armies - so showing noticeable attitude towards the only person who can save you in this scenario is not something a smart person would do - and it never will be, regardless of how many characters there are telling me how smart and clever Sansa is. 

*Sigh*
I'm so tired of fake-drama in Winterfell.

^^^ All of this!!

It kinda irks me that we even have to try to rationalize poor writing. 

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33 minutes ago, MinscS2 said:

Not gonna lie, I expected there to be me more tension between Daenerys and Sansa in this episode than what there actually was.

Something that did bother me though is that the show now apparently wants us to believe that Sansa is super-smart.

Regardless of what Sansa might think of Daenerys, and regardless if Daenerys needs the north as much as the north needs her, the north is screwed without Dany's dragons and armies - so showing noticeable attitude towards the only person who can save you in this scenario is not something a smart person would do - and it never will be, regardless of how many characters there are telling me how smart and clever Sansa is. 

*Sigh*
I'm so tired of fake-drama in Winterfell.

This so very much. It's like Sansa and her lords can't see the forest from the trees. Their only hope is Dany's armies and Dragons, yet they're worried about titles, and Jon bending the knee when there is a greater than probable chance that in a few days their entire kingdom is gonna get run over and destroyed.

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If Dany was allowed to act as a real person the tension would be over in a minute. All she had to do was tell Sansa 'ok, you don´t want me here, fine. I don´t want to be here either. But without us working together everybody here is fucked so you better be thankful Jon was able to convince me to go to this bloody cold hell and risk my armies and my precious dragon´s life to help you.' Unfortunatelly, ever since Dany and Tyrion got together she is not allowed to express anything except smirks in the background because Tyrion is the star of the show and he needs atleast something to do. So she just sat there as idiot and let everybody to hurl insults at her.

As for Sansa, I have no idea what´s her plan. It´s like because she knows Dany and Jon are in love Dany will not leave no matter what so she can atleast make her stay as unpleasable as possible. But she has no alternative. No secret hidden army to use. It´s either Dany and her dragons or walking dead North. 

Btw. that´s also true for Jon. It´s understanable Sam would prefer his best friend Jon to be the king, but Jon has nothing to offer. So pushing him to go against Dany makes zero sense. 

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Posted (edited)

Same with Sam, why are you pushing Jon to push his claim to the throne when the Night King is days away from killing everybody? This is the worst possible time to introduce friction in this alliance.

Edited by D-Shiznit

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18 hours ago, Mystical said:

In their conversation about what dragons eat. And then later in her convo with Jon? Did you not see the episode?

yeah i remember that

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1 hour ago, tws1978 said:

If Dany was allowed to act as a real person the tension would be over in a minute. All she had to do was tell Sansa 'ok, you don´t want me here, fine. I don´t want to be here either. But without us working together everybody here is fucked so you better be thankful Jon was able to convince me to go to this bloody cold hell and risk my armies and my precious dragon´s life to help you.' Unfortunatelly, ever since Dany and Tyrion got together she is not allowed to express anything except smirks in the background because Tyrion is the star of the show and he needs atleast something to do. So she just sat there as idiot and let everybody to hurl insults at her.

As for Sansa, I have no idea what´s her plan. It´s like because she knows Dany and Jon are in love Dany will not leave no matter what so she can atleast make her stay as unpleasable as possible. But she has no alternative. No secret hidden army to use. It´s either Dany and her dragons or walking dead North. 

Btw. that´s also true for Jon. It´s understanable Sam would prefer his best friend Jon to be the king, but Jon has nothing to offer. So pushing him to go against Dany makes zero sense. 

This so much. Alot of people just dont seem to get that having a claim to the throne is not the same as having the power to claim throne.

If all you needed was a claim then Viserys would be king right.? 

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By the way guys, all we historically know about them literal dragons - and from the books as well, considering Jon's line about a dragon at the Wall in ADwD - imply that the Northmen would not solely be terrified by the dragons - because no dragon ever ravaged the North - but they would be in awe of them and see them as wondrous allies in their fight against the zombie army.

This whole moronic attempt to play a non-existent threat or a non-existing great rift just makes no sense. The Northmen never rebelled against a Targaryen king who had dragons, and they would most definitely not reject a ruler who came with dragons to help them in their hour of need.

I mean, last time I looked nobody threw out the Vale knights because they were 'foreigners' and 'invaders' and the guys in the North could deal with Ramsay all by themselves...

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I must be the only person who didn’t think this ‘conflict’ had either of the two characters acting poorly. I read a lot of the comments before watching the show and I was getting anxious when watching to see how Sansa (a book favourite) was going to  be a complete moron. But, tbh, her response was pretty expected for me and not as bad as I find people are making it out to have been. She greeted Dany and welcomed her to Winterfell as she was supposed to. Did she have a tone? For sure! But it wasn’t like she said anything she wasn’t supposed to. Then at the meeting with the Northerners, she spoke up, questioning the supplies. Now, we can go back and forth on how to speak to monarchs and Westerosi courtesy and what not, but IMO, the show has consistently depicted the North as being much more blunt with their leaders and having a more democratic speaking process at councils. So, for show Sansa to speak in what might be considered a ‘rude’ tone, seems very in sync with how the North handles things and how she would handle things now in the North as LoW. I also thinks Sansa has a very valid concern. Are there enough provisions? Because yes, obviously the North need allies and assurance but it isn’t silly to worry about feeding them! Imagine bringing this massive army and then them running out of food before the white walkers get there! That’s not going to be of any help then, is it! And they would in fact be better without them.

But, saying that Sansa’s reactions are justified doesn’t mean Dany is a villain. Smirking at people being scared of her dragons or not she has also chosen to come and save those people. And she does expect Sansa to receive her better, because that’s what she has come to expect. In Dany’s experience she has quite consistently had allies who adore her and only enemies that treat her coldly. Then when Sansa is blunt in the meeting, Dany, who isn’t used to having other people speaking to her/about her in that way, is understandably annoyed and feels like Sansa is crossing a line. Dany would likely even cast her in a ‘villain’ light, confusing Sansa’s lack of faith for a desire to usurp her. 

Actually, having rambled in this way I’ve convinced myself that this is probably one of the more realistic character ‘conflicts’ they’ve created haha. The blunt lady of the North (which show Sansa is) and the proud Queen were of course going to clash! Of course... their ‘conflict’ will go absolutely no where so it’s pointless. But at least I don’t think it’s illogical

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Dany used her dragons to intimidate the common folk. Meanwhile I'm 100% certain we will be shown a scene of Sansa feeding the common folk.

"I'll have to make some changes to the Citadel when I take my throne." - Daenerys S8E1

"He knows I won’t forget my friends when I come into my throne." - Viserys S1E1

They did say there would be episode 1 throwbacks. 

She is like her brother, with dragons.

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1 minute ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Dany used her dragons to intimidate the common folk. Meanwhile I'm 100% certain we will be shown a scene of Sansa feeding the common folk.

"I'll have to make some changes to the Citadel when I take my throne." - Daenerys S8E1

"He knows I won’t forget my friends when I come into my throne." - Viserys S1E1

They did say there would be episode 1 throwbacks. 

She is like her brother, with dragons.

she has always acted like her brother. she is just nicer then he ever was

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5 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Dany used her dragons to intimidate the common folk. 

No she didn’t. If she really wanted to do that she could have come screeching in atop Drogon and made a statement entrance like she did to Cersei at the dragon pit. 

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2 minutes ago, Nictarion said:

No she didn’t. If she really wanted to do that she could have come screeching in atop Drogon and made a statement entrance like she did to Cersei at the dragon pit. 

"I just burnt his tokar a little"

"I just scared the poor starving common folk a little"

 

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The mere presence of dragons would scare the common folk, regardless if they where flying overhead (which they did) or walking next to the army on the ground (something they would never do.)

At least they where following Daenerys and the army around by the looks of it, so most people who are nearby would have at least some clue of why there are dragons there. It's not like they where roaming the skies around the entirety of the north, scaring clueless peasants and looking for food.

Claiming that Daenerys actively tried to intimidate the common folk is just false, and in the off case that she would actually do that, Jon would disapprove, and he's not whipped enough (yet) to keep his opinion to himself - and for all we know, she still cares a great deal about his opinion.

 

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She wasn't getting the reaction she wanted out of them, awe/adoration, so she went with fear/intimidation instead. Then she smiled. Read John Bradley, Sam's take on Dany. It is how they're writing her:

"a dangerous figure"

"imbalanced"

"such a volatile character"

"volatile, murderous, irrational behavior"

"terrified of what she's capable of"

"without any compassion at all"

"feels psychopathic"

"no moral code"

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5 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

She wasn't getting the reaction she wanted out of them, awe/adoration, so she went with fear/intimidation instead. Then she smiled. Read John Bradley, Sam's take on Dany. It is how they're writing her:

"a dangerous figure"

"imbalanced"

"such a volatile character"

"volatile, murderous, irrational behavior"

"terrified of what she's capable of"

"without any compassion at all"

"feels psychopathic"

"no moral code"

 

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9 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

She wasn't getting the reaction she wanted out of them, awe/adoration, so she went with fear/intimidation instead. Then she smiled. Read John Bradley, Sam's take on Dany. It is how they're writing her:

"a dangerous figure"

"imbalanced"

"such a volatile character"

"volatile, murderous, irrational behavior"

"terrified of what she's capable of"

"without any compassion at all"

"feels psychopathic"

"no moral code"

I got to ask - what's your point?
Bradley is talking from Sam's PoV, and Sam met her once and learned that she executed his father and brother. He has nothing to relate to, so of course his instant reaction is to dislike her. Who can blame him?

I saw the episode with 8 people, all with mixed views on Daenerys, but none of us thought she actively tried to intimidate people.
As for her smile, it felt like a "heh, they're in awe of my kids". Way closer to a proud parent than an evil fearmonger. (So there's the awe/adoration you're talking about.)

You on the other hand, clearly dislike Daenerys (judging by most of your posts) and so you instead see her actively using her dragons to intimidate and scare northern commoners, smiling with glee as she does so. I assume for no other reason than because "she is evil"? 
You even twist John Bradley's words to fit your narrative.

I don't generally mind people criticizing Daenerys - she's is flawed and has made plenty of stupid choices - but this just feels like tedious hate, not based in what we actually saw happen on the show.

 

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