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What smart things has Sansa done?


Nerevanin

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10 hours ago, SansaJonRule said:

In the Vale, when the Lords question LF, she lies for him because she believes at the time she is safer with him than without him (better the enemy you know than the one you don't,), and she secures his loyalty to her, which proved invaluable at the BotB.

I've seen this claim a few times in this thread, but Sansa didn't lie in the show - she told the truth, she told them that she was Sansa, that her aunt had gone mad and wanted to throw her out of the moondoor and LF pushed Lysa to save her. That's how the show did that Vale story.

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10 hours ago, SansaJonRule said:

I do have to disagree with you, and many other people, that Jon is stupid and ignores the people around him. For example, when he was advised not to go to Dragonstone to meet Dany, he acknowledges there fears and the risk involved, but explains why he believes he must do it. Just because a leader does not do as his advisors want, doesn't mean he doesn't listen to them. He did listen to Tormund about putting aside his pride and bending the knee to save his people (although I think it would have gone over better if he had waited until after he met with his bannermen and told them what he was going to do and why.) He is like LF in that he has one objective (to kill the NK and his army), and he evaluates his options on whether they will help him achieve that goal. He isn't so good at communicating, but that doesn't make him stupid.

I don't think Jon is stupid, but he does suck in communication. Even now in Winterfell, he fails to make people understand what a good person Dany is. He makes a poor case for "she is the best person to lead you all". And he has been a bit myopic to the emotions of Northerners. Something that costed him dearly the last time...

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3 hours ago, Kajjo said:

Well, well... the main question is whether Sansa is passionate about Jon himself as a person or more jealous of Daenerys being queen.

We should not forget that Sansa ultimate dream was to become the Queen. From episode 1 on. Now she is Lady of Winterfell and might be smart enough to plot her way to the Iron Throne. 

In the show we have no hints towards a Jon/Sansa romantic relationship. Jon and Sansa despised each other as children and even talkabout that later, how bad Sansa was to him. Currently, Sansa still believes Jon to be a half-brother, so romance is excluded anyway and psychologically unlikely.

Sansa has probably given up any dreams about men. She made only very bad experiences so far. Sansa wants to be Queen. 

But yes, I see a certain rivalry between Sansa and Daenerys, but over Jon and over power.

 

Sansa was raised on stories of how Daenerys' father and brother abused and killed her relatives; not to mention other depredations of the Mad King that were so bad that they sparked a rebellion involving four Lords Paramount and lots of deaths.  Sansa has also lived in King's Landing, where the Targaryens and later Robert and then Cersei ruled; and has seen the effect that the power of the Iron Throne has on its rulers; and she doesn't want that power, whether incarnate in Cersei or Daenerys, getting any influence on the North.  And now there's a self-proclaimed Targaryen queen riding into Winterfell with Sansa's (supposed) half-brother (who bent the knee to her and gave up the kingship that the Northern lords gave him, for her) at her side - of course Sansa is not going to be pleased.  She would have probably been much more at ease if Jon had remained the King in the North and rode with Daenerys as an equal, a fellow sovereign.  Jon is thinking only about destroying the White Walkers/Night's King (when he's not thinking about Daenerys).  Sansa is probably thinking that if/when they destroy the White Walkers/Night's King, will the Mad King's daughter and her forces pillage the North?  

I don't see any evidence that Sansa wants to sit on the Iron Throne, or ever return to King's Landing.  She might have a desire to rule the North, but it is her ancestral right; though she is not willing to destroy her family members (including Jon) to do so.

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1 hour ago, Kajjo said:

Sansa despised him and Jon suffered. They didn't like each other at all.

You're giving no room for an evolving relationship between them. When they first reunited in the show and she asked for an apology, he said "there's nothing to forgive." These bastard issues aren't even relevant to their issues now. Currently the relationship is about him seeking her validation while she's asking for him to be smarter with his leadership. There is also no evidence of her causing him suffering or her despising him in bookland.

56 minutes ago, King Jon Snow Stark said:

I don’t see why they have to be married. 

They fulfill the pact of ice and fire, which was supposed to be a marriage. He has a Targaryen claim to the crown and she has a Stark claim to Winterfell. If he is the heir to the Iron Throne the best way to secure that is to marry the daughter of a powerful house - and most importantly, a territory that is otherwise resistant to unification. 

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20 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

You're giving no room for an evolving relationship between them. When they first reunited in the show and she asked for an apology, he said "there's nothing to forgive." These bastard issues aren't even relevant to their issues now. Currently the relationship is about him seeking her validation while she's asking for him to be smarter with his leadership. There is also no evidence of her causing him suffering or her despising him in bookland.

They fulfill the pact of ice and fire, which was supposed to be a marriage. He has a Targaryen claim to the crown and she has a Stark claim to Winterfell. If he is the heir to the Iron Throne the best way to secure that is to marry the daughter of a powerful house - and most importantly, a territory that is otherwise resistant to unification. 

Doesn't he fulfill that? His mother is a Stark and his Father is a Targaryen. If none of his cousins survive. He gets Winterfell and the Throne. I still don't see the point of marriage. He can be king and he can make Sansa his hand. He doesn't need to marry her. 

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1 minute ago, King Jon Snow Stark said:

Doesn't he fulfill that? His mother is a Stark and his Father is a Targaryen. If none of his cousins survive. He gets Winterfell and the Throne. I still don't see the point of marriage. He can be king and he can make Sansa his hand. He doesn't need to marry her. 

He has no claim to Winterfell - never did -  and would refuse it because it means kicking Sansa out of her position. She's the one calling the banners now. So that makes it clear what her role is. What you're describing is so close to marriage anyway. Co-rule? Why not make it official. Marriage seals the tie and makes their power stronger.

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1 minute ago, Kajjo said:

He is already half Targaryen and half Stark. He is not 100% Targaryen. He does not need to marry a Stark to get some Ice.

 

Quite so.  Rhaegar and Lyanna fulfilled the pact of Ice & Fire, surely.  Jon is the product of that.

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1 hour ago, sweetsunray said:

I've seen this claim a few times in this thread, but Sansa didn't lie in the show - she told the truth, she told them that she was Sansa, that her aunt had gone mad and wanted to throw her out of the moondoor and LF pushed Lysa to save her. That's how the show did that Vale story.

She made it sound like it was an accident when she knew very well that it wasn't. That's a lie.

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I know they had Sansa mention they don't have enough food to make her seem smart, but it shows she isn't getting it.  It also of course, shows how lazy the writing of the show is.

They are not going to be at WF for the "Winter" the NK and his army will be there within a matter of days or weeks. If they win the battle, Dany and her army will leave the North, so they have enough food.  If they lose the battle, then it doesn't matter whether they had food for 6 months or 6 years, they are dead or evacuated.

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Just now, Cas Stark said:

I know they had Sansa mention they don't have enough food to make her seem smart, but it shows she isn't getting it.  It also of course, shows how lazy the writing of the show is.

They are not going to be at WF for the "Winter" the NK and his army will be there within a matter of days or weeks. If they win the battle, Dany and her army will leave the North, so they have enough food.  If they lose the battle, then it doesn't matter whether they had food for 6 months or 6 years, they are dead or evacuated.

A normal army would set up a siege, in which case food would be a critical issue. Her concerns are perfectly legitimate. That the undead are unlikely to play by the rules is not her fault.

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2 minutes ago, Kajjo said:

He is already half Targaryen and half Stark. He is not 100% Targaryen. He does not need to marry a Stark to get some Ice.

 

The pact is about the political reality of the claim. The original pact as planned was that a person with a Targaryen surname would marry a Stark heir to Winterfell to unite the kingdoms. That was never fulfilled. Lyanna wasn't a Stark heir and their marriage brought war. Jon can't unify the kingdoms by himself because he currently has no title right now and the Lords won't follow a guy who is a Targaryen. They're more likely to follow Sansa. Sansa is the key to the North.

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13 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

He has no claim to Winterfell - never did -  and would refuse it because it means kicking Sansa out of her position. She's the one calling the banners now. So that makes it clear what her role is. What you're describing is so close to marriage anyway. Co-rule? Why not make it official. Marriage seals the tie and makes their power stronger.

From what I understand cousins can inherit. As bastard he had no claim but as trueborn descendant of House Stark he would be able to inherit. He would be in the line of succession. 

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4 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Jon can't unify the kingdoms by himself because he currently has no title right now

Let's see what happens when Daenerys learns about his parentage. She has no more rights or titles than Jon. Daenerys is just bold enough to call herself queen, because she threatens everyone with her dragons.

4 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

the Lords won't follow a guy who is a Targaryen.

Probably true. It is not only interesting how Daenerys reacts, but also how the Northerners react to that revelation. Maybe Jon holds back his new knowledge until after the battle?

5 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

They're more likely to follow Sansa. Sansa is the key to the North.

Well, Lyanna is very sceptic of Sansa and many other Northern lords probaly just shut up, too. Marrying Tyrion Lannister made no impression on the North and marrying Ramsay Bolton even less. 

And then there is still Arya.

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I'd also like to add that Ned Umber already gave an interesting clue. "My lord. My lady." The Lord and Lady of Winterfell. They also hang out in the Lord's chambers together, and Jon entered her chambers for no purpose at all...he came just to hang out. They're acting out Ned and Cat, who also argued with each other about political decisions in S1. Catelyn/Sansa doesn't want to lose Ned/Jon to Robert/Dany.

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19 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

The pact is about the political reality of the claim. The original pact as planned was that a person with a Targaryen surname would marry a Stark heir to Winterfell to unite the kingdoms. That was never fulfilled. Lyanna wasn't a Stark heir and their marriage brought war. Jon can't unify the kingdoms by himself because he currently has no title right now and the Lords won't follow a guy who is a Targaryen. They're more likely to follow Sansa. Sansa is the key to the North.

Lyanna is not a heir but Sansa is? That doesnt make any sense. Lyanna was Ned's sister. Just like Sansa is Bran and Robb's sister. She is only leading because she is a Stark. And Bran will not lead. 

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8 minutes ago, House Cambodia said:

A normal army would set up a siege, in which case food would be a critical issue. Her concerns are perfectly legitimate. That the undead are unlikely to play by the rules is not her fault.

She knows they are undead, so her concern is, dare I say, sort of stupid.

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