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What smart things has Sansa done?


Nerevanin

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18 minutes ago, MinscS2 said:

Irrelevant from an in-universe perspective (aunt/nephew isn't considered incest in Westeros), and not as big of an issue from an audience-perspective as some wants it to be. There's a very vocal "but they're related!"-minority, but most people seem to not care about it enough to be against it - mostly because they didn't know, and won't know until it's already too late - and again, because in the fictional world of Westeros, it's not taboo.

Ironically on the flipside, I'm surprised that so many here (relatively speaking at least) are in favor of a Jon-Sansa relationship. 
They may only be cousins in the reality (which admittedly is "better" than aunt/nephew, but still pretty gross from a modern perspective), but unlike Jon and Daenerys who had never met before S7, Jon and Sansa have known each-other for all of their lives and have always considered and regarded each other as (half)-siblings.


Unlike between Jon and Daenerys, the Westermarck Effect would be in full...effect, between Jon and Sansa.
 

Uncle/daughter and aunt/nephew relationships were taboo in Westeros at one point. Or at least I think I they were. I can't think of any other real reason why people would be so deeply bothered by Rhaenyra's relationship with her uncle Daemon. And it made Alys Karstark's dilemma that much more dire. But that's another can of worms.

I don't have a problem with the aunt/nephew facet of Daenerys and Jon's relationship...especially since its already way too late. They have already had sex multiple times and they are fond of each other in a lovey-dovey way. Those feelings are unlikely to subside once the truth is unveiled. As a matter of fact, judging from Jon's immediate reactions to Samwell's discovery, it has done nothing. Notice how he said nothing of his personal relationship with Daenerys.

The cousins thing? I've never had an issue with second or third cousins hooking up with each other. Or, as unusual and odd as this sounds, even first cousins. First cousins are unusual and are really pushing the envelope for me personally. Due to my cultural background, first cousins are more like siblings than cousins. But most of the world still practices cousin marriages. As a matter of fact, when you look at the breadth of human history, romantic/sexual relationships between cousins are much more commonplace and accepted than homosexuality.

Mind-blowing from a modern Western perspective.

In spite of all of that, I do not nor have I ever shipped a relationship between Jon and Sansa. Nope. Much less Arya.

The fact that GRRM originally intended for Jon, Arya and Tyrion to be in a love triangle with each other still makes me gag. Arya still would have been a pre-teen, Jon in his mid to late teens and Tyrion in his late twenties. Yikes!

Daenerys might not care too much about the fact that she has been dating and sleeping with her nephew as she always expected to marry or please to her brother. This facet of the revelation is more likely to bother Jon.

 

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1 minute ago, Charlie Hustle said:

She went from Joffery's prisoner, to bolton's prisoner to outsmarting Little Finger to the Warden of the north. Thats pretty smart.

- She could've stopped being Joffreys prisoner in S2, yet stayed until S4 for no apparent reason.
- She "voluntarily" became the Bolton's prisoner. She knew what kind of person Roose was if nothing else.
- She didn't outsmart LF, at least not on her own. For all we know, Bran told her everything right before she was about to move against Arya. (Honestly, the storytelling in WF during S7 was so freaking badly made. We will probably never know what truly happened.)
- She's not Warden of the North, she's Lady of Winterfell - and not by her own volition, but because Jon made her. 

I'll give Sansa credit, she survived circumstances that would've killed a ton of other characters.
But for all the "smart" things she's done, she's also done a ton of stupid decisions. 

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Just now, MinscS2 said:

- She could've stopped being Joffreys prisoner in S2, yet stayed until S4 for no apparent reason.
- She "voluntarily" became the Bolton's prisoner. She knew what kind of person Roose was if nothing else.
- She didn't outsmart LF, at least not on her own. For all we know, Bran told her everything right before she was about to move against Arya. (Honestly, the storytelling in WF during S7 was so freaking badly made. We will probably never know what truly happened.)
- She's not Warden of the North, she's Lady of Winterfell - and not by her own volition, but because Jon made her. 

I'll give Sansa credit, she survived circumstances that would've killed a ton of other characters.
But for all the "smart" things she's done, she's also done a ton of stupid decisions. 

She went from a dumb blonde to a major player. Tho she took the scenic route and a couple of tragic relationships to learn it all, but she lived in the world of politics so she knows people intentions inside and out. She is very smart and has the experience to back it all up.

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Just now, Charlie Hustle said:

She went from a dumb blonde to a major player.

I'd say she's still pretty dumb, at least on occasion. Undermining and antagonizing the people who are coming to save you and your home just because you don't like them isn't something a smart person would do.

Sansa is remarkably haughty for someone who's been trough everything she's been trough.

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3 hours ago, Charlie Hustle said:

She went from a dumb blonde to a major player. Tho she took the scenic route and a couple of tragic relationships to learn it all, but she lived in the world of politics so she knows people intentions inside and out. She is very smart and has the experience to back it all up.

All of this is very nice but the problem imo is that it makes her look as if it was all her actions that made her go from a "dumb blonde" to a "major player". In fact she always needed someone's help, she herself did basically nothing. A great example of who someone gets to the top via politics is Littlefinger (let's ignore the fact that the show made him an idiot and killed him) - he was a boy from an unimportant tiny House, he used his skills and became Master of Coin, then Lord of Harrenhall and eventually Lord of Eyrie. He put the whole freaking story in the motion. All of this was his skills, planning, scheming (and a bit of help from Lysa, but once again he needed some skills like charm and manipulation to make her do all that). Compared this to Sansa who always needed help of someone else:

- she needed LF's help to get out of King's Landing - without him she would have been executed for Joffrey's dead

- she needed LF's help to survive Lysa's attempt to kill her

- she got back to Winterfell as the first Stark, true, but once again, thanks to LF (I know she agreed to marry Ramsay but still, it wouldn't happen without LF)

- she needed Theon's help to run away from Winterfell. She needed Brienne's help to survive on the run. Then she needed John's help to survive on the run. She needed LF's help to survive Battle of the Bastards.

- she got LF killed but only thanks to Bran (and a big bunch of lords who didn't want to see a single proof *rolling eyes*)

- she currently is one of the leaders of Winterfell but only thanks to Jon's honourable heart. He is (was) the king, if he was more power hungry, she would be "just there" without any real power. Her biggest chance to actually become a big player was after the Battle of the Bastards - she should have tried to make the lords elect her instead of Jon. Instead she just sat there.

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On 4/18/2019 at 2:19 PM, sweetsunray said:

I'm not splitting hairs... It's how I read this claim about Sansa lying to those who came to investigate about Lysa's murder, and it seemed to me people were confusing book-Sansa's lies to Nestor Royce (a complete cover up) with show-Sansa revealing her identity. And it is important, because much of the Vale plotline is utterly moronic once Sansa outs herself to Royce and those with him, even if she told the truth in such a way it made LF look good at the time, especially when LF hands Sweetrobin over to Roye like that. It's a complete miracle that LF remained warden after that and as guardian of Sansa.

Just so you know, since this is the Season 8 section of the forum, I only speak of what happened during the show.

In the scene where Sansa is questioned by the Lords of the Vale, after telling them the truth of who she was and what had happened to her before coming there, and what had happened between her and Lysa (Lysa seeing LF kiss her and calling her a whore), thereby establishing her credibility (very smart move), she told them that Lysa said "she didn't want to live anymore", and LF promised Lysa "she was the only woman he had ever loved" and "...she stepped through those doors...".

So you see, Sansa did lie, outright. If you disagree that it was a smart thing to do, just say so. Don't dance around the truth of what happened.

As far as the rest of it, that has nothing do with the subject of this thread and it happened in season 4 so I think it's not even worth discussing.

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