What smart things has Sansa done?

[dbunting]

11 hours ago, Ser Yorick Ampersand said:

Lady Sandra is a joke

Everyone has been trying to save her from season 1 but she always refuses and gets into worse situations again and again.

1- The Hound offers to take her home after battle of blackwater - she refuses and gets humiliated by joffrey and married to Tyrion

2 - Gets used by Petyrfinger against her own aunt who liked her. Her aunt gets killed because of her inaction and she even protects Petyrfinger, she was completely manipulated to petyrs will.

3 - Brienne offers her service has bodyguard and take her to Jon - Sandra refuses and gets sold to the Boltons and raped by Ramsay

There are many other examples. She got Lady killed and Arya separated from Nymeria and if she had run from Kingslanding like Arya, Robb would have attacked Casterly Rock after Ned died.

 

1.  At that point in the story she was still somewhat scared of the Hound and didn't trust him.

2. Almost everyone got used by him, Ned, Tywin, Cersei everyone, so a 15 year old girl getting manipulated makes sense.

3. Brienne was also shunned by Arya, do you think Arya is dumb as well?

How many teenagers would have lied in that situation? She was to be married to the Prince for petes sake! It's like if she was engaged to Justin Bieber or something.

And if Robb attacked Casterly Rock he would have been soundly defeated. The Lannister army was at full strength then plus he didn't know about the super secret entrance!

Littlefinger to Sansa = Arya and the FM and Jon and the Nights Watch.   A plot device to get them to the end, Sansa learned politics and scheming from LF, Arya learned assassin skills, Jon learned combat and leadship. Each had their plot teacher to move them along. Each of them suffered under their training but came out a stronger person.

[Error-504]

11 hours ago, Every Last Chicken said:

Sometimes I think back about this scene and what might have changed had she told them to wait, but I also come to the realization that perhaps not saying anything was a better move in the long run.

It would have changed, immensely. But if one of the goals was to save Rickon, than by no way was it a better move. Are you trying to say Sansa was willing to sacrifice Rickon to make retaking WF easier? I don't buy that. 

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Ramsay was all about mind games and playing very cautiously. He wouldn't dismount during their parley for a 1 on 1 against Jon because he knew the odds were not in his favor. He arrogantly came outside the castle walls of Winterfell to meet Jon and his army on the open fields because the odds WERE in his favor and he knew it. Had he seen or scouted the vale army and known that they would be joining, it’s possible that he would have retreated to a more strategic position within the castle walls and prepared for a siege. 

I will go farther than that, it is a given he would not have left the walls of WF. Also, he would not have killed Rickon, as Rickon would be a vastly valuable asset to negotiate a retreat if needed, to live another day. 

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Aside from maybe Wun-Wun, I don't think Jons army + the Vale would have had an easy time taking Winterfell by siege. In the end it was a gamble to withhold the information about the Vale troops, but the gamble paid off. 

No, it didn't, it got Rickon killed. You also not allowing for the fact had it been known that the Vale forces were committed to the liberation of WF, then the Glovers, Manderlys, and Cerwynns would most likely have joined the cause as well, having a ripple effect. Now all of a sudden Ramsay is faced with a vastly superior force staring him down. The question then turns to how would his allies handle this? Would the Umbers and Karstarks still side with Ramsay in the face of most certain defeat, or would they switch sides, and completely undermine Ramsay from within the Castle Walls themselves. if all this happens, and there is a very good chance it would have happened, Ramsay surrenders, and in exchange for Rickon, he is allowed safe passage back to the dreadfort. 

 

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I'm not going to say Sansa is the smartest person on the show all of a sudden; we've all seen her make some terrible blunders and pay for them dearly (not going with the Hound, not going with Brienne, etc). But to say she hasn't learned or developed is a little disingenuous in my opinion. 

 

As for the Winterfell court, I feel like what the previous poster said is accurate. They have a more open system where everyone airs their greivances without worrying about retaliation. After all, despite all the grumbling they are still at Winterfell and still appear to be ready to fight and help. Only Lord Glover chickened out at the last moment. 

Sansa might be responsible for the death of thousands of Northerners, wildlings, and Rickon. Anyone with any intelligence can see this. 

[MinscS2]

1 hour ago, Error-504 said:

Sansa might be responsible for the death of thousands of Northerners, wildlings, and Rickon. Anyone with any intelligence can see this. 

And Wun-Wun!

[SansaJonRule]

On 4/15/2019 at 9:49 AM, Risto said:

Since she was a prisoner and her options were limited, I will focus on the time she spent in Winterfell.

1. She questioned Jon's decisions. Simply put, Sansa is the one always making him to explain his decisions. If we all remember, Jon died because he was thinking too big, not realizing what is happening around him. The same can be said happened again. She voiced the concerns and as any good leader would tell you, you need a loyal people questioning you every now and then.

2. Sansa kept the North in line. We see Glovers are gone. We see Mormont and Royce being thoroughly unhappy with the new arrangement. In Season 7, Sansa worried what Lords may do if they had found out about the letter she write to Robb when she was 12 years old. And Jon absolutely didn't give a moment of thinking what would mean to bring a foreign army with a daughter of the man who decimated Northern and Vale houses. On top of that, he is telling them that Lannister Army is also coming. Basically, without privately addressing his bannermen, without making them understand the importance of the alliance and moving past the transgressions, he expects obedience. And obedience he would not get had it not been Sansa holding the North and calming the lords down. 

3. War is not only about soldiers. Yes, Dany has 100 000 soldiers, but she has no logistics of keeping them fed. The problem here is that show makes War for Dawn will last one night of battle (in books, it is said that the last War for Dawn lasted a generation.) So Sansa summoned all the Northerners to Winterfell, made sure the food supplies are ready. She organized the defense when someone brought 100 000 soldiers without any logistical support.

4. Littlefinger. Oh, yes... We all call Cersei stupid, but then we see the three "smartest" leads buying Cersei's lies. Sansa, on the other hand, doesn't trust Cersei for a single second. She warned Jon about Cersei, but just like with Ramsay, Jon didn't listen. And we see how that turned out. Now, can you imagine what havoc would LF be able to do with them. How quickly he would turn dissent into rebellion or worse. By killing him, Sansa practically saved all of them. 

I would agree that Sansa being the smartest person doesn't make much sense, but in this current leadership, she does make a string case to be the most capable one. Jon simply ignores people, Tyrion lost his way somewhere between Essos and Westeros, Dany demands obedience (what is worse, we heard in last season how she inspired Esossi to fight for her. Now, she just sits and demands the knees to be bent.). Sansa is doing something. It is perhaps uncharted territory for all of us, but this is what some of us have been expecting - Sansa to have her own role in the fights to come.

I understand what they wanted to achieve but I also feel that Arya could have expressed her loyalty to Sansa in better way.

 

You make some very astute observations in my opinion.

In the Vale, when the Lords question LF, she lies for him because she believes at the time she is safer with him than without him (better the enemy you know than the one you don't,), and she secures his loyalty to her, which proved invaluable at the BotB. She knew she couldn't trust him, told him straight to his face, but kept him around I guess for as long as he might prove useful or until she had the proof she needed to have him executed. (Whether it was her or Arya or both who figured out that LF was trying to turn them against each other, or whether they knew it all along is a subject for another thread, which was done last season.)

Sansa knows Cersei can't be trusted. Period.

Sansa has grown tremendously from a frivolous little girl into a shrewd woman. She's been through a lot, but she's learned from her experiences. She has learned to read and deal with people. She understands the logistical needs of running a castle, as a lady of a hold needs to.

When Arya said that Sansa was the smartest person she ever knew, I think she was telling Jon not to underestimate Sansa (remember Tyrion said a lot of people underestimated her and most of them are dead now), and was also letting us (the viewers) know that Arya sees the changes in Sansa and respects her. Whether smart is the best word is, I believe, splitting hairs.

I do have to disagree with you, and many other people, that Jon is stupid and ignores the people around him. For example, when he was advised not to go to Dragonstone to meet Dany, he acknowledges there fears and the risk involved, but explains why he believes he must do it. Just because a leader does not do as his advisors want, doesn't mean he doesn't listen to them. He did listen to Tormund about putting aside his pride and bending the knee to save his people (although I think it would have gone over better if he had waited until after he met with his bannermen and told them what he was going to do and why.) He is like LF in that he has one objective (to kill the NK and his army), and he evaluates his options on whether they will help him achieve that goal. He isn't so good at communicating, but that doesn't make him stupid.

[SansaJonRule]

15 hours ago, Ser Yorick Ampersand said:

Lady Sandra is a joke

Everyone has been trying to save her from season 1 but she always refuses and gets into worse situations again and again.

1- The Hound offers to take her home after battle of blackwater - she refuses and gets humiliated by joffrey and married to Tyrion

2 - Gets used by Petyrfinger against her own aunt who liked her. Her aunt gets killed because of her inaction and she even protects Petyrfinger, she was completely manipulated to petyrs will.

3 - Brienne offers her service has bodyguard and take her to Jon - Sandra refuses and gets sold to the Boltons and raped by Ramsay

There are many other examples. She got Lady killed and Arya separated from Nymeria and if she had run from Kingslanding like Arya, Robb would have attacked Casterly Rock after Ned died.

 

All the examples you state are from the first what, 4 seasons, before she is even 16? You are aware there have been 3 more seasons since then?

3 hours ago, Error-504 said:

No, it didn't, it got Rickon killed. You also not allowing for the fact had it been known that the Vale forces were committed to the liberation of WF, then the Glovers, Manderlys, and Cerwynns would most likely have joined the cause as well, having a ripple effect. Now all of a sudden Ramsay is faced with a vastly superior force staring him down.

 

3 hours ago, Error-504 said:

No, it didn't, it got Rickon killed.

Rickon was dead the moment he was handed over to Ramsey. There was no way he was gonna let that boy live, and Sansa knew it. Ramsey might have used him as a bargaining chip, but do you really think he would have honored any such agreement? You give him way too much credit.

4 hours ago, dbunting said:

3. Brienne was also shunned by Arya, do you think Arya is dumb as well?

 

4 hours ago, dbunting said:

Littlefinger to Sansa = Arya and the FM and Jon and the Nights Watch.   A plot device to get them to the end, Sansa learned politics and scheming from LF, Arya learned assassin skills, Jon learned combat and leadship. Each had their plot teacher to move them along. Each of them suffered under their training but came out a stronger person.

Both excellent points, and the latter very obvious IMO.

[dbunting]

2 hours ago, SansaJonRule said:

All the examples you state are from the first what, 4 seasons, before she is even 16? You are aware there have been 3 more seasons since then?

 

Rickon was dead the moment he was handed over to Ramsey. There was no way he was gonna let that boy live, and Sansa knew it. Ramsey might have used him as a bargaining chip, but do you really think he would have honored any such agreement? You give him way too much credit.

 

Both excellent points, and the latter very obvious IMO.

And I forgot Bran - 3ERaven. Each surviving Stark child had a clear mentor, for lack of a better term, who prepared them for what is the climax of the series.

[LokisRaider]

12 hours ago, Raksha 2014 said:

 

If I were Sansa, and Arya came to me and made all kinds of assumptions (i.e. that I was colluding with the Lannisters while wearing a pretty dress and watching them kill my father)  based on inconclusive observations and was implying that she could and might kill me and take my place with her magical assassin's skills; I would be thinking of gutting my own sister too, if only for self-preservation; thinking that she had lost her mind and would have to be killed or imprisoned.  The fact that Sansa (at least according to the script) consulted with her oracular brother before taking any action against Arya shows self-control, presence of mind, and at least some intelligence. 

But that doesn't make you smart that just makes you average. I'm not tying to say she is dumb as a sack of potatoes, I'm just saying everything she does that is supposed to make her seem smart is just basic knowledge or actions. Asking for advice and council is what you should do when making a big decision. Especially when that advice is from your all knowing brother and the decision being made is to get rid of your sister. Acting without thinking and jumping into something like that would be stupid, figuring out littlefingers plan and out maneuvering him on her own would have been smart. She shouldn't be praised for being smart for just doing what any normal person should/would have done. Just because she didn't do something stupid (except the Vale army thing, there is no way you can convince me withholding vital information like that wasn't stupid) doesn't automatically make her smart.

 

And the point of my comment you replied to was to explain how she did not out smart littlefinger, she did not know what he was up to and did not figure it out on her own. Which is true right? 

 

Her actions show she is of average intelligence, but because they don't know how to show her being incredibly smart they just show her not being dumb and say she is smart because of it. 

[Rose of Red Lake]

I knew Sansa would have this role as soon as the grain entered her storyline. It was also clear she would be the leader of Winterfell because she has a political upbringing. She is forced to play the game. Its not uncharted territory for some of us.

[Rose of Red Lake]

Sansa is smart but she is also unable to hide her contempt. There is a simple explanation for this--it isnt a sign of her stupidity but a sign of jealousy. Sansa lashing out at Dany (against her political instincts) suggests this is the "passionate fight" Sophie described her character going through this season. I think she's fighting to keep Jon to herself. The way she turned and said "AND A TARGARYEN QUEEN!" was like when a wife finds out her husband has a pretty new work friend.

[darmody]

Sansa cleverly froze her face in place so as to show as little emotion as possible, in the grand tradition of other female Game of Thrones  womenz. 

[Kajjo]

31 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

"passionate fight" Sophie described her character going through this season. I think she's fighting to keep Jon to herself

Well, well... the main question is whether Sansa is passionate about Jon himself as a person or more jealous of Daenerys being queen.

We should not forget that Sansa ultimate dream was to become the Queen. From episode 1 on. Now she is Lady of Winterfell and might be smart enough to plot her way to the Iron Throne. 

In the show we have no hints towards a Jon/Sansa romantic relationship. Jon and Sansa despised each other as children and even talkabout that later, how bad Sansa was to him. Currently, Sansa still believes Jon to be a half-brother, so romance is excluded anyway and psychologically unlikely.

Sansa has probably given up any dreams about men. She made only very bad experiences so far. Sansa wants to be Queen. 

But yes, I see a certain rivalry between Sansa and Daenerys, but over Jon and over power.

[Camara]

I think Sansa is doing the role of "good cop" which keeps the Northern Lords with the Starks. If all the Starks were ignoring the Lords they might have felt abandoned. With a Stark voicing their concerns they feel they still have the possibility to "win".

I don't think this is the reason Sansa is speaking loudly in public against Jon but I can see the merits of this, it's not full undermining of Jon.

[Rose of Red Lake]

1 hour ago, Kajjo said:

Well, well... the main question is whether Sansa is passionate about Jon himself as a person or more jealous of Daenerys being queen.

The tension involves more than just Sansa not liking Dany for political reasons. The question "Do you have any faith in me at all?" suggests that the focus is on Jon proving himself to her. Her reply is very important and resolves that tension: "You know I do." That's forward momentum for them working together. She is upset he removed his title; she liked having him as king, but she's also upset that he's got a pretty girlfriend. She looked sad in those scenes.

And actually the whole quote was, "This season is more a passionate fight for her than a political, manipulative kind of fight" (x). So the passion (if that's what this is) should be something else than simply making herself queen because that involves manipulation for herself. 

[Kajjo]

8 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

he is upset he removed his title; she liked having him as king, but she's also upset that he's got a pretty girlfriend.

Yes, I see both aspects. But being upset about losing your mind about a new girlfried does not necessarily mean you want him as lover yourself. For women it is always bad to see a good friend thinking with his dick instead his brain.

Do you see any indications of romantic interest between Sansa and Jon in the whole series? They were not close as children.

[Rose of Red Lake]

10 minutes ago, Kajjo said:

Yes, I see both aspects. But being upset about losing your mind about a new girlfried does not necessarily mean you want him as lover yourself. For women it is always bad to see a good friend thinking with his dick instead his brain.

Do you see any indications of romantic interest between Sansa and Jon in the whole series? They were not close as children.

Well most people who like the idea of Jon and Sansa together don't want them to be close as children and don't even want Sansa to have been his favorite sister. The distance is what makes it more of a "meeting each other for the first time" kind of thing. However I'm not even expecting an overt romance between them; I expect a political marriage like Ned and Cat. LadyRen's post expressed my thoughts about them in the episode better than I could. 

[King Jon Snow Stark]

14 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Well most people who like the idea of Jon and Sansa together don't want them to be close as children and don't even want Sansa to have been his favorite sister. The distance is what makes it more of a "meeting each other for the first time" kind of thing. However I'm not even expecting an overt romance between them; I expect a political marriage like Ned and Cat. LadyRen's post expressed my thoughts about them in the episode better than I could. 

Jon and Sansa? Really. I don’t see Sansa marrying the man she views as her half- brother for most of her life. I see her fighting for him and protecting him. But not marrying him.

[Kajjo]

16 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

don't want them to be close as children

What that about "wanting"? We know they haven't been.

16 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

on't even want Sansa to have been his favorite sister.

Sansa despised him and Jon suffered. They didn't like each other at all.

17 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

I expect a political marriage like Ned and Cat

Between Sansa and Jon? Really? No, I don't. I wouldn't like that at all. They do not fit together. No chemistry at all.

[King Jon Snow Stark]

1 minute ago, Kajjo said:

What that about "wanting"? We know they haven't been.

Sansa despised him and Jon suffered. They didn't like each other at all.

Between Sansa and Jon? Really? No, I don't. I wouldn't like that at all. They do not fit together. No chemistry at all.

I get that she represents the new Cat and He is the new Ned. I don’t see why they have to be married. 

[Kajjo]

32 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

LadyRen's post expressed my thoughts about them in the episode better than I could. 

Much of it was bullshit, though. Sorry for my clear words, but we have to take what we see seriously. Anything can happen, though. Even Sansa and Jon. I will not deny that. I replied to the referenced post and pointed out some errors.

[Kajjo]

11 minutes ago, King Jon Snow Stark said:

I get that she represents the new Cat and He is the new Ned. I don’t see why they have to be married. 

What parallels do you see between Ned and Jon? Well, Jon is half Targaryen and half Stark. While Ned was very, very much a Stark. True, Jon makes the same mistakes about honor and mistaken loyalty, even dies due mutiny. But I guess he has a lot more openness to break the rules than Ned ever had.

What parallels do you see between Catelyn's and Sansa' situation? Catelyn married Ned as she was told to do. In the beginning there was no love at all and then it grew to a solid loving partnership. Sansa has been married to Tyrion, has been married to Ramsay and raped and abused by him. I expect her somehow to be done with men for the moment.