Crackpot theory about Jaime and end game

[Dragons 7th Eye]

Spoilers from trailer below, if someone is so purist that hasn't even watched it

All of the rest is just pure speculation from Episode 1 or older material.

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"Everything you did brought you where you are now", Bran says to an unknown, in the trailer.

S8E1 Bran is waiting "for an old friend" and the episode ends with his eyes meeting Jaime's.

I think it is Bran talking to Jaime. Obviously they need to settle between them sooner or later - and there is only so much time before the NK is at the door. Bran not really being Bran might be quite forgiving, seeing the big picture.

"Everything you did" - and Jaime has done a lot more than throw Bran out of the window; although quite a lot of it wasn't as bad as it looked on the surface. He needs redemption.

If I would be right that Bran is talking to Jamie (and I might be wrong), Jaime is "here" as in Winterfell, and everything brought him there. To me, that means he will meet his destiny in Winterfell and the destiny must be important enough to be noticed by the Three eyed raven who didn't sit out in the cold waiting for Jon, Dany et al.

So the total crackpot: Jaime will kill NK, somehow. Battle may still be lost and most likely is, but in hour of deepest despair somehow, the Army of dead would be stopped. That would leave the remaining of our heroes and heroines plus what is left of their army and possibly dragons to turn their eyes South - where 20 000 strong Golden company awaits. Numbers might well be in the favor of Cersei by then.. Also, I feel several things would fit the spirit of the show. Red herring evil terrible scary bad guy, the real bad guy getting away with his destructive plan all the while sipping wine in the comfort of her Castle etc.

How Cersei would be ousted of the Throne, I don't know. Maybe she isn't. Perhaps that is bittersweet; humanity survives because the good sacrificed themselves only to see the bad get the spoils. Our heroes die at the gates of King's Landing and Cersei, she carries on. More realistically though, this being a show and all, they find a way and our happy couple will rule ever after THE END, after dealing with the drama of who is actually the rightful heir and either noticing some Targaryan traditions or straight up TV-style ignoring some unpleasant details.

I Think I'd prefer Cersei, as a viewer; since I wouldn't have to live under her rule and all I care is entertainment.

[Kajjo]

Yes, that is no so crackpoint as I expected... Jamie having some special moments is to be expected. 

It could very well be his dialogue with Bran. 

[btfu806]

I don't think it is crackpot. I think Jamie does kill the NK or at least "saves the day." They have obviously been pushing hard for Jon to be the hero and save everyone but for Jamie's complete arc, I think him saving everyone makes more sense. It would be even better if he does not get recognized for it and still is only known as the King slayer.

I think you're also right that Bran won't be upset, he will see the big picture. I think Dany will be the bigger problem because she will want him dead and she can't see the bigger picture. 

In my opinion, Dany still ends up being a "bad guy" character when it's all said and done. I think the good traits of all these different individuals will be compared to her and show her short comings and she will resort to what she has always done, use dragons and big armies to kill whoever gets in her way.

[House Cambodia]

Not crackpot, but you must remember Maggy the Frog's prophecy? He has to be the other end of the continent to fulfil that.

[btfu806]

6 minutes ago, House Cambodia said:

Not crackpot, but you must remember Maggy the Frog's prophecy? He has to be the other end of the continent to fulfil that.

Is Jamie the younger more beautiful queen to strike her down?

[House Cambodia]

Just now, btfu806 said:

Is Jamie the younger more beautiful queen to strike her down?

I'm thinking of the 'Valonqar''

‘And when your tears have drowned you, the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you.’

 

 

[Dragons 7th Eye]

16 minutes ago, btfu806 said:

I don't think it is crackpot. I think Jamie does kill the NK or at least "saves the day." They have obviously been pushing hard for Jon to be the hero and save everyone but for Jamie's complete arc, I think him saving everyone makes more sense. It would be even better if he does not get recognized for it and still is only known as the King slayer.

Oh, I knew I forgot things as I tried to keep it short and kept editing. Kingslayer rightfully slaying another King.

10 minutes ago, House Cambodia said:

Not crackpot, but you must remember Maggy the Frog's prophecy? He has to be the other end of the continent to fulfil that.

True, if you are convinced he is the valonqar.

Now, as the books went on Jaime became my favourite character, although much of his progress is truncated in the show, by the end of S7 I was there as shown by comments of Goldenhand coming to the rescue of the North. I would love nothing more than to have it both ways - Jaime having his heroic moment in Winterfell and killing Cersei. Unfortunately, I don't think this is the kind of show I would get all that.

It will be Tyrion's hands on her throat in the end, if the showrunners don't cut the whole prophecy out. How it ends in the books is any one's quess. I am thinking things might be quite different in many ways. In the show I would only be mildly shocked to see Cersei survive the whole thing.

[btfu806]

Just now, House Cambodia said:

I'm thinking of the 'Valonqar''

‘And when your tears have drowned you, the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you.’

 

 

That doesn't exist in the show though? Or did Cersei mention it at some other point and I am completely blanking (which is a possibility).

[House Cambodia]

1 minute ago, btfu806 said:

That doesn't exist in the show though? Or did Cersei mention it at some other point and I am completely blanking (which is a possibility).

There was a pre-credits scene when kid Cercei forces Maggy to prophesy. Can't remember the exact episode or exact words used, to be fair.

[btfu806]

1 minute ago, House Cambodia said:

There was a pre-credits scene when kid Cercei forces Maggy to prophesy. Can't remember the exact episode or exact words used, to be fair.

Yeah that's Season 5 episode 1. She doesn't mention the Valonqar. 

It's just she will be queen, married to a king, King will have a ton of kids she will have 3 and she will be struck down by a younger, more beautiful queen.

 

[House Cambodia]

Fair enough. I've got a crackerpot theory though. Jon is killed by a White Walker/NK, is resurrected yet again but of course as a wight. Bran wargs into him and has him kill the NK. Boom! (Of course, this is AFTER Jon puts a Valeryan sword through Dany's heart)  :-)

[Ice Queen]

Jaime is Azor Ahai, except that there is nothing he sacrifices except himself.

The NK is Brandon Stark. Jaime has to finish the job this time and kill the Fenris wolf. I hope I'm wrong about that, but his throwing Bran out of the window and then losing his hand is straight out of Norse mythology. In the end, Tyr kills Fenrir but dies himself. 

I've always thought that one of the Starks was going to go full White Walker. That would not surprise me in the least. The Starks are to the Others what the Targs are to dragons. It's inescapable.

 

[Nerevanin]

Ooooh, I like your theory that Jaime will kill the NK. :) And so his nickname "Kingslayer" would comment not only on his past actions but also predict his future ones. Nice!

But I still think that he will kill Cersei eventually (I know he is in the North now, but hey, I'm not giving up) and thus fulfil the valonquar prophecy (Tyrion being the valonquar would be too predictable as Cersei expects this the whole time). I suppose that Jaime would die killing the NK and so he wouldn't have time to kill Cersei. He could do it in the reversed order ofc but I don't think he will do both.

I think that Sam will kill the NK. I have no real reason to support this but I think so. He has the valyrian steel sword which was just mentioned, after all.

I've always thought that Theon will die while trying to save a Stark, as a kind of redemption (when betrayed Robb and took Winterfell, this moment basically led to the dead of Robb and Catelyn and eventually Rickon). He helped Sansa in the show, no one in the books yet. Killing the NK would probably qualify for this, but I don't think it will be Theon who kills him.

[House Cambodia]

6 minutes ago, Ice Queen said:

Jaime is Azor Ahai, except that there is nothing he sacrifices except himself.

The NK is Brandon Stark. Jaime has to finish the job this time and kill the Fenris wolf. I hope I'm wrong about that, but his throwing Bran out of the window and then losing his hand is straight out of Norse mythology. In the end, Tyr kills Fenrir but dies himself. 

I've always thought that one of the Starks was going to go full White Walker. That would not surprise me in the least. The Starks are to the Others what the Targs are to dragons. It's inescapable.

 

I'd say whoever is Azor Ahai has to put a sword through the heart of his 'wife' Nissa Nissa, and for me that has to be Jon and Dany.

 

Theon has to die saving a Stark kid given backstory, yes - either Sansa or less likely, Bran.

[Ice Queen]

Just now, House Cambodia said:

I'd say whoever is Azor Ahai has to put a sword through the heart of his 'wife' Nissa Nissa, and for me that has to be Jon and Dany.

 

Theon has to die saving a Stark kid given backstory, yes - either Sansa or less likely, Bran.

Here's the thing about Azor Ahai that's messed up. Christ figures don't sacrifice other people. They sacrifice THEMSELVES. I don't think there is a Nissa Nissa. However, if there is, it's Brienne. 

All of which is a moot point, really. We haven't seen anything resembling Lightbringer since Stannis was killed. It's entirely possible that it isn't even a sword. 

[House Cambodia]

3 minutes ago, Ice Queen said:

Here's the thing about Azor Ahai that's messed up. Christ figures don't sacrifice other people. They sacrifice THEMSELVES. I don't think there is a Nissa Nissa. However, if there is, it's Brienne. 

All of which is a moot point, really. We haven't seen anything resembling Lightbringer since Stannis was killed. It's entirely possible that it isn't even a sword. 

"Christ figure"? I don't think AA is meant to be any such thing. There's tons of mythology running through ASOIAF but I don't see any of it as Christian. 'Pagan' gods tend to reflect the workings of nature and as such would be considered amoral in Christian terms. Therefore, the objective is to restore a 'balance' to nature by removing the 'magical' ice and fire elements, being the WWs and the dragons.

[Ice Queen]

1 minute ago, House Cambodia said:

"Christ figure"? I don't think AA is meant to be any such thing. There's tons of mythology running through ASOIAF but I don't see any of it as Christian. 'Pagan' gods tend to reflect the workings of nature and as such would be considered amoral in Christian terms. Therefore, the objective is to restore a 'balance' to nature by removing the 'magical' ice and fire elements, being the WWs and the dragons.

I didn't say Christian. There are Christ figures all throughout mythology and fantasy literature. Christianity has nothing to do with it, only a self sacrifice for the salvation of mankind. And I do agree with you about removing the magical elements. The Citadel's main objective is to do just that. 

When looked at that way, humans are the enemy of both the dragons and the WWs. They are forces of nature, as are the Red God, the Great Other, the Drowned God, etc.

 

[House Cambodia]

Just now, Ice Queen said:

I didn't say Christian. There are Christ figures all throughout mythology and fantasy literature. Christianity has nothing to do with it, only a self sacrifice for the salvation of mankind. And I do agree with you about removing the magical elements. The Citadel's main objective is to do just that. 

When looked at that way, humans are the enemy of both the dragons and the WWs. They are forces of nature, as are the Red God, the Great Other, the Drowned God, etc.

 

Yes, the second paragraph is where I agree with you. I actually see the main theme, well-hidden though it is, as an allegory of Climate Change. Gaia is trying to reset after too much human interference which began with the cutting down of the weirwoods. I suspect Rh'llor and The Great Other are the two sides of the Manichean/Zoroastrian dualism.

Interesting you mention the Citadel. I think the Maesters have singularly failed in their purpose as they've always taken a militantly rationalist position and failed to recognise and deal with the magical aspects in Planetos, thus not removing those elements successfully and missing all the signs of its re-emergence.

[Ice Queen]

6 minutes ago, House Cambodia said:

Yes, the second paragraph is where I agree with you. I actually see the main theme, well-hidden though it is, as an allegory of Climate Change. Gaia is trying to reset after too much human interference which began with the cutting down of the weirwoods. I suspect Rh'llor and The Great Other are the two sides of the Manichean/Zoroastrian dualism.

Interesting you mention the Citadel. I think the Maesters have singularly failed in their purpose as they've always taken a militantly rationalist position and failed to recognise and deal with the magical aspects in Planetos, thus not removing those elements successfully and missing all the signs of its re-emergence.

Most Maesters at the Citadel didn't believe the WW ever existed. The dragons, however were within memory. So they ignored the signs of the WW, and freaked out when the dragons were born. 

As for your first paragraph, I would agree except for one thing: Martin long ago said the wacky seasons on Planetos had a supernatural cause. I think that's all locked up in the Five Fortresses, the Maiden of Light, and the other stuff we never get to see. Essentially, a quest for immortality gone horribly wrong. That doesn't mean I think you're wrong; Martin is a huge fan of Lovecraft, and the environmental themes in Lovecraft's work are very, very strong.  IMO, the weirwoods are one organism, just like Pando in Utah. In other words, we are all one. Our actions affect every living creature in the world and if we throw it out of balance, really bad things can happen. 

[House Cambodia]

1 minute ago, Ice Queen said:

Most Maesters at the Citadel didn't believe the WW ever existed. The dragons, however were within memory. So they ignored the signs of the WW, and freaked out when the dragons were born. 

As for your first paragraph, I would agree except for one thing: Martin long ago said the wacky seasons on Planetos had a supernatural cause. I think that's all locked up in the Five Fortresses, the Maiden of Light, and the other stuff we never get to see. Essentially, a quest for immortality gone horribly wrong. That doesn't mean I think you're wrong; Martin is a huge fan of Lovecraft, and the environmental themes in Lovecraft's work are very, very strong.  IMO, the weirwoods are one organism, just like Pando in Utah. In other words, we are all one. Our actions affect every living creature in the world and if we throw it out of balance, really bad things can happen. 

I'm on board with all of that. My favourite part of the whole ASOIAF mythos is the earliest stuff, so I'm delighted to know that will be the subject of the first spin-off series. I'm looking forward to all these hypotheses being directly addressed, which also means we're not going to get clarity this series!