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TheValonqarThatWasAzorAhai

Symbol at the Last Hearth

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18 hours ago, lakin1013 said:

I know the theories that the NK is Bran or Jon or Bran the Builder and so on (all Starks).  I know of no theories that the NK is a Targaryen.  Can you point me to where I might find this, or share the theory?

I don't think the NK would be a Targaryen, but more along the lines that if NK=Bran he may be broadcasting that he is coming after Daenrys or something of that nature. It's possible that he's some far off Targaryen  but I don't think that makes sense in terms of the history of Westeros. 

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I think the symbols means nothing, it's just a shot for the TV show that looks cool and highlights the "mystical" thing about WW.

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4 hours ago, Moon of My Life said:

But the symbol appeared thousands of years before Targaryens and Dany’s “wheel” speech. It’s a Children of the Forest symbol we saw at the Weirwood tree before The Night King was made. More likely the symbol represents the cycle of life and death or something, or rebirth. The Iron Throne is so new and simply not important to the Children of the Forest. 

Its identified with the Children and more likely the Greenseers. It may just be a message calling Bran out

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5 hours ago, Moon of My Life said:

But the symbol appeared thousands of years before Targaryens and Dany’s “wheel” speech. It’s a Children of the Forest symbol we saw at the Weirwood tree before The Night King was made. More likely the symbol represents the cycle of life and death or something, or rebirth. The Iron Throne is so new and simply not important to the Children of the Forest. 

Okay, I had time to think about it.  Maybe setting it on fire es D&Ds way of saying that the Targs are The Prince/Princess that was promised and Azor Ahai and will be the ones to finally defeat the White Walkers/The Night King for good.  Remember, the last time they were active the Targs and their dragons were not in Westeros.

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19 hours ago, Moon of My Life said:

I don't get why people think the Night King is a secret Targaryen just because ONE of the symbols he leaves as a message vaguely resembles the Targaryen sigil. We already know this symbol is a symbol of the Children of the Forest. I thought most people knew that The Night King is at least 8,000 years old (give or take a few) and the Targaryens appeared thousands of years later on Essos. The Targaryens had nothing to do with the Long Night last time. They were also only one of 39 dragon riding families, and far from the most powerful.

On the contrary, i'm pretty sure The Night King is a Stark! Hence this foreshadowed connection with the crypts of Winterfell.

Came here to say this.

The show is all about the Starks, the crypts and prophecy of someone special Jon and Dany making a sacrifice to save humanity.

Rhaegar behaved much like Bran and Jon. He knew he had to put some pieces in place to fullfil his role. He did it not because he liked it but because he had to.

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11 hours ago, Error-504 said:

 

In all likelihood, it's denotes a celestial event, such as a comet. Celestial events can be witnessed by all the people that populate the planet (unnamed) that Westoros/Essos/Sothoryoss  is on. 

Similarities from ancient civilizations might exist because they all witnessed this same event.  

At best it probably represents the dawn of a new age. 

What's at stake is who gets to shape this "New Age". 

I said the same thing. Sun wheels can denote comets as well as infinity and the vastness of creation--the swastika is one such but by no means the only example. It was not originally a Nazi symbol. They co-opted it from the Zoroastrians. 

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7 hours ago, ummester said:

Yea, possibly.

There seems to be an assumption the CotF made the Walkers as weapons because Leaf says 'We were at war. We were being slaughtered. Our sacred trees cut down. We needed to defend ourselves.' Bran, 'from whom?' Leaf 'From you. From men.'

It never directly says they made the walkers as a weapon. They could have been trying to achieve something else. Magic men up so they liked trees and stopped cutting them down, or something. It's possible that the Walkers are the pact, or the product of the pact.

From what we've seen, the original White Walkers were First Men. No idea if that's significant, but it would be a little cheeky to make weapons out of your enemies' own people to be used against them.

Most fantasy stories have some element of the quest for immortality. The Children were not long for this world, and they knew it. Maybe in creating the WW, some part of them would live on? 

I think it was the trees being cut down that pissed them off more than anything. To the Children, the trees are their gods. Destroying them was destroying their entire world. 

I said in another thread (I think, it might even have been this one) that I believe the weirwoods are a single organism like Pando in Utah, only on a much larger scale. There is ONE tree from which all the daughter trees come. THE heart tree. 

Where is it? Could the NK and the WW be going there? The answers to whatever questions he has, and whatever he's seeking, may be there, especially if he is also a greenseer. It could very well be that he simply wants to become human again. 

 

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On 4/17/2019 at 1:01 AM, Ice Queen said:

From what we've seen, the original White Walkers were First Men. No idea if that's significant, but it would be a little cheeky to make weapons out of your enemies' own people to be used against them.

Most fantasy stories have some element of the quest for immortality. The Children were not long for this world, and they knew it. Maybe in creating the WW, some part of them would live on? 

I think it was the trees being cut down that pissed them off more than anything. To the Children, the trees are their gods. Destroying them was destroying their entire world. 

I said in another thread (I think, it might even have been this one) that I believe the weirwoods are a single organism like Pando in Utah, only on a much larger scale. There is ONE tree from which all the daughter trees come. THE heart tree. 

Where is it? Could the NK and the WW be going there? The answers to whatever questions he has, and whatever he's seeking, may be there, especially if he is also a greenseer. It could very well be that he simply wants to become human again. 

 

The trouble with the Godswood (or similar) in the show is that it has never been previously mentioned or seen. Not saying it's impossible - and definitely possible in the books - but may seem a bit too out of nowhere in the show.

In the show I think the NK would be after something we have already been introduced to - a character like Jon, Dany, Bran or baby Sam seems most likely, especially since the NK actor says he has a target. The Iron Throne could also be a target but the question with that is why did the NK wait like 300 years after Aegon's conquest to start moving?

Didn't GRRM once say that whatever is motivating the Others is something that happened 35 (or 50) years before the start of the story?

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Have we considered its an old representation of the sun? Its the Long Night, the Night King represents the Darkness. They did point out the Karstark sigil randomly early on, a sunburst. 

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1 hour ago, ummester said:

The trouble with the Godswood (or similar) in the show is that it has never been previously mentioned or seen. Not saying it's impossible - and definitely possible in the books - but may seem a bit too out of nowhere in the show.

In the show I think the NK would be after something we have already been introduced to - a character like Jon, Dany, Bran or baby Sam seems most likely, especially since the NK actor says he has a target. The Iron Throne could also be a target but the question with that is why did the NK wait like 300 years after Aegon's conquest to start moving?

Didn't GRRM once say that whatever is motivating the Others is something that happened 35 (or 50) years before the start of the story?

I have a hunch it was Summerhall. The Targaryens messed with something they shouldn't have messed with, a magic beyond their understanding and control.

Rhaegar was born on the very day of the tragedy.

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8 minutes ago, Ice Queen said:

I have a hunch it was Summerhall. The Targaryens messed with something they shouldn't have messed with, a magic beyond their understanding and control.

Rhaegar was born on the very day of the tragedy.

It would have to be Summerhall. There isn't really anything else that fits the time line.

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There are 2 possible meanings that I see for the symbol (and I definitely don't think there couldn't be others).

One is because of it's resemblance to a wheel, which doesn't have a beginning or ending and just keeps going round and round, in other words, history keeps repeating itself, like the seasons. (I know this isn't original, it's like "The Wheel of Time".)

Another is that small events can have huge repercussions, like the ripples a stone makes when throne into the water, because you have a small center and lines radiating out from the center, making a larger and larger design.

Considering the first one, we all seem to assume that the NK will be defeated permanently and the Night's Watch will no longer be needed. But what if he isn't? Viseryion could be killed, and between Dany's dragons, the obsidian weapons and the "last hero" (Azor Ahai?), the humans could take out a tremendous portion of the AotD and he could cut his losses and retreat back to wherever he's been all these thousands of years. It would maintain the "balance" that someone mentioned earlier. The wall would need to be rebuilt (the magic would have to be rediscovered, perhaps by Bran) and the Night's Watch reinstated, Azor Ahai destined to be born again, etc.

GRRM doesn't like to make things too happy, so just how happy of an ending will he give us?

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On 4/18/2019 at 6:07 AM, AryaNymeriaVisenya said:

Have we considered its an old representation of the sun? Its the Long Night, the Night King represents the Darkness. They did point out the Karstark sigil randomly early on, a sunburst. 

Could be. The symbol predates the creation of the Night King, but were did the seasons last for years before his creation? That would explain their longing for the sun.

But we know there is some correlation between exceptionally long winters and the NK because the last Long Night was the last time the NK came south right?

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8 hours ago, SansaJonRule said:

There are 2 possible meanings that I see for the symbol (and I definitely don't think there couldn't be others).

Well, we see TWO symbols repeating itself again and again: The circle divided in two (e.g. S1E1 opening scene) and the spirals. Both are associated with the White Walkers. 

Both symbols could be interpreted as related to the Golden Ratio (golden mean, divine proportion). The greek letter phi is the established symbol and Golden Spirals are a very common symbol or related pictures associated with the Golden Ratio. 

Maybe the symbols are just meant to refer back to the forces of Nature itself or to the Children of the Forest and old pacts drawn between whoever.

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1 hour ago, Kajjo said:

Maybe the symbols are just meant to refer back to the forces of Nature itself or to the Children of the Forest and old pacts drawn between whoever.

I agree with this. My belief is the symbol refers to the pact made back 5-8000 years ago between the Others, CotF, and the Last Hero. The NK uses it as a sort of banner to reveal the reason he is invading due to the fact that the pact was increasing violated by man, with Daenerys' invasion of Westeros with her dragons being the acute precipitating event for his invasion. Humankind's obsessive drive for absolute power is the underpinning to all this. Just my perspective.

 

 

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, Kajjo said:

Well, we see TWO symbols repeating itself again and again: The circle divided in two (e.g. S1E1 opening scene) and the spirals. Both are associated with the White Walkers. 

Both symbols could be interpreted as related to the Golden Ratio (golden mean, divine proportion). The greek letter phi is the established symbol and Golden Spirals are a very common symbol or related pictures associated with the Golden Ratio. 

 

Actually the symbols most closely represent the Sun/comet and the moon (circle with a line through it). 

Maybe the symbols are just meant to refer back to the forces of Nature itself or to the Children of the Forest and old pacts drawn between whoever.

I think it refers back to the power that created the NK, and now he is just using it as his calling card. I don't think we will learn much more than that on the show. 

https://imageresizer.static9.net.au/fC9sRl9TtSgFD_7wW1vH1sbWQcU=/636x0/http%3A%2F%2Fprod.static9.net.au%2Ffs%2Fc2075514-5f24-4021-b4e5-f0d06433fbc8

 

The above link is telling (why we can't add pictures is beyond me). it clearly shows the comet as a major event in the awakening of the dragons (also foreshadowed by Osha). 

Edited by Error-504

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, DisneyDoc2425 said:

I agree with this. My belief is the symbol refers to the pact made back 5-8000 years ago between the Others, CotF, and the Last Hero. The NK uses it as a sort of banner to reveal the reason he is invading due to the fact that the pact was increasing violated by man, with Daenerys' invasion of Westeros with her dragons being the acute precipitating event for his invasion. Humankind's obsessive drive for absolute power is the underpinning to all this. Just my perspective.

 

 

I think it has nothing to do with the pact, rather the "birth" of the first other. 

Edited by Error-504

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Posted (edited)
On 4/15/2019 at 11:51 AM, Fragile Bird said:

But they ended up hating each other. So is it a symbol of scorn and mockery now?

It is as you describe - a symbol of mockery or scorn.   A deliberate perversion of a symbol used by the CotF. (The writer for Ep 1 said this in an interview recently.)

Edited by Tywin Tytosson

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Posted (edited)
21 hours ago, SansaJonRule said:

But we know there is some correlation between exceptionally long winters and the NK because the last Long Night was the last time the NK came south right?

Right.  The Long Night occurred during a winter which lasted generations, during which the White Walkers first appeared to humanity.  After the NK was defeated (in the Great War of/for the Dawn), and driven north, the Wall was built to keep him and the dead there.  The NK and the walkers did not come south of the Wall while it stood.  The Wall was imbued with magic (from the CotF) to prevent that.

[this is Show Backstory.  Book backstory differs slightly]

Edited by Tywin Tytosson

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