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Igziabeher

Samwell's response?

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1 minute ago, Lady Rhodes said:

I did mention in a post that no one who is a villain think they are a villain. I think Dany was wrong to burn the Tarlys and I think she knows it now, too. 

I would have hoped so, but this is not evident in any conversation with anyone, including Samwell... In fact, Dany seems rather indifferent in the latter.  Again, I believe that it is overcompensation.

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2 minutes ago, LadyNoOne said:

I think that Dany's heart is in the right place. 

Yes, I agree. I stated in some threads already "Good intentions are often the opposite of good deeds". 

2 minutes ago, LadyNoOne said:

I think that she is overcompensating to say the least

Hm, I don't think she is compensating. She has just a lot of blackwhite thinking in herself. Someone committed a crime, the obvious solution is execution. No matter the crime. Someone doesn't want to bend the knee. Execution. She is sometimes overly protective, sometimes overly aggressive. The is not much middle ground in Daenerys' feelings about and reaction towards people. 

Her reaction to Sansa is plain stupid. She could easily accept Sansa as Lady of Winterfell and Jon as commanding the North. But no, everyone needs to bend the knee and be oh-so-devote to her. Not a single word of opposition, of contradiction, of difference. That's not how ruling works. She would be better advised to listen to Northern leaders knowing the Northmen rather than alienating all of them inside a few days at Winterfell.

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2 hours ago, LadyNoOne said:

P.S. Dany did make a tiny reference to Sansa in S8E01 in that Sansa doesn't need to be her friend, but if she doesn't respect me... She was speaking to Jon.  I knew what she meant when she was speaking to Jon.  Same fate as the Tarlys.

I don't agree at all.  The truth is that she does need to have a level of public respect to be the queen. For example, part of the purpose of Cersei's shaming was to undermine her authority.

It's a far cry from stating this fact to threatening to burn an ally, much less her lover's sister.

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1 minute ago, Kajjo said:

Yes, I agree. I stated in some threads already "Good intentions are often the opposite of good deeds". 

Hm, I don't think she is compensating. She has just a lot of blackwhite thinking in herself. Someone committed a crime, the obvious solution is execution. No matter the crime. Someone doesn't want to bend the knee. Execution. She is sometimes overly protective, sometimes overly aggressive. The is not much middle ground in Daenerys' feelings about and reaction towards people. 

Her reaction to Sansa is plain stupid. She could easily accept Sansa as Lady of Winterfell and Jon as commanding the North. But no, everyone needs to bend the knee and be oh-so-devote to her. Not a single word of opposition, of contradiction, of difference. That's not how ruling works. She would be better advised to listen to Northern leaders knowing the Northmen rather than alienating all of them inside a few days at Winterfell.

Does Dany need to execute anyone who does not bend the knee?  I think people can be a resource (that was an obvious Walking Dead ref... sorry for crossover)  what fun! :)

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16 minutes ago, Kajjo said:

We don't know what she implies, but it was a clear threat -- and totally inappropriate. She is psychopathically into "bending the knee" instead of forming alliances. She can not bear to have anyone else with even a bit of power beside her. I call this a very bad leader and drastic signs of more mad king in her than some of us believe.

It's hard to think in this frame of reference, because most of us don't set out to be monarchical rulers. but the truth of the matter is that people bending the knee is indispensable to her entire life's goal--re-asserting rule over the Seven Kingdoms. If people don't "bend the knee" she isn't doing what she set out to do.  There's nothing irrational about it. It's exactly what she has always said she was going to do.

Now, we could have a discussion about whether this ought to be her goal, but that's kind of a different conversation.

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6 minutes ago, LadyNoOne said:

Does Dany need to execute anyone who does not bend the knee?  I think people can be a resource (that was an obvious Walking Dead ref... sorry for crossover)  what fun! :)

It depends a bit on the circumstances, but by definition she will not be the queen of Westeros if the people there (at least the leaders of major houses) don't bend the knee to her.

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6 minutes ago, LadyNoOne said:

I would have hoped so, but this is not evident in any conversation with anyone, including Samwell... In fact, Dany seems rather indifferent in the latter.  Again, I believe that it is overcompensation.

Here is my position on Daenerys: she started the series in a very weak and powerless position. Overtime, she has gained power. With that, she has developed a revulsion to appearing weak or giving up power. It is her biggest flaw - she makes terrible decisions when she is afraid of appearing weak. That was her problem in Meereen. She can’t figure out how to temper strength and justice with mercy. 

So now, she is confronted with Sam and the Tarlys. We have differences in opinion about her delivery. Regardless, she is now confronted with the reality that “displays of strength and justice” can be a weakness in their own right. 

A villian doesn’t realize they have become a villain. Dany, I suspect, is going to have a talk with Tyrion about this next episode. 

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14 minutes ago, LadyNoOne said:

Sadly, I don't think dear Sam would have ever measured up for his father... It is a true heartbreaker.

Yea I don’t think he would have either but maybe some part of sam’s subconscious still pined for some sort of acknowledgement from his father. It’s natural for people to try to win over or be accepted by the ones who don’t want us or see our true Value :crying:

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On 4/15/2019 at 11:31 AM, Igziabeher said:

Did it seem a little out of character for him to be so upset about his father's fate?  The guy basically disowned him  by sending him to the wall and he repayed him by stealing their ancestral sword, now he cares that he was killed for not bending the knee?  Anyone else caught off guard by that.

Did everyone in this thread skip the little "inside the episode" documentary right after the credits?  They specifically point out how Sam has two reactions, one for his father and one for his brother, and they praise the actor for his performance.

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3 minutes ago, Coffeewiththegods said:

Yea I don’t think he would have either but maybe some part of sam’s subconscious still pined for some sort of acknowledgement from his father. It’s natural for people to try to win over or be accepted by the ones who don’t want us or see our true Value :crying:

Absolutely, and I believe this is one of the many ways that this show/books reaches all of us on some level.  It is not just about cool dragons, actions scenes, mystery, thriller, but the real life struggles that we all face.  Some of those challenges can never be realized with a positive outcome other than for for us in our own minds to know we gave it our best and won in our own way! :)

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14 minutes ago, Forlong the Fat said:

If people don't "bend the knee" she isn't doing what she set out to do.  There's nothing irrational about it. It's exactly what she has always said she was going to do.

Well, FIRST conquering the Iron Throne and THEN make people submit and bend the knee would be more sensible.

At the moment, Daenery is just an intruder with armies, but not a Westerosi queen, by no definition at all. 

9 minutes ago, Forlong the Fat said:

but by definition she will not be the queen of Westeros if the people there (at least the leaders of major houses) don't bend the knee to her.

Yes, but she needs to be ruler and not just an applicant.

8 minutes ago, Spaßvogel said:

They specifically point out how Sam has two reactions, one for his father and one for his brother, and they praise the actor for his performance.

And they are right to do so. Sam's performance is the best and his scenes are also the best written ones, the best dialogues of S8E1.

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Are people seriously suggesting that Daenerys would (essentially) tell Jon "you sister needs to start respecting ...me or I'll kill her", and that he'd be absolutely fine with that?
D&D's fake tension is working for some it seems. 

 

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6 minutes ago, MinscS2 said:

Are people seriously suggesting that Daenerys would (essentially) tell Jon "you sister needs to start respecting ...me or I'll kill her", and that he'd be absolutely fine with that?

No, it's basically not a threat to kill Sansa, but a clear request to Jon to bring her in line -- and in-between the lines she is threating Sansa to deal with her in one way or the other. Sansa has to submit, that is the clear message. Threats by a little movement of the eyes and threats nonetheless.

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23 minutes ago, Forlong the Fat said:

It depends a bit on the circumstances, but by definition she will not be the queen of Westeros if the people there (at least the leaders of major houses) don't bend the knee to her.

People need to respect her.  Her rule won't succeed if people only obey her because they're frightened of her.

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14 minutes ago, MinscS2 said:

Are people seriously suggesting that Daenerys would (essentially) tell Jon "you sister needs to start respecting ...me or I'll kill her", and that he'd be absolutely fine with that?
D&D's fake tension is working for some it seems. 

 

Of course not. We don't completely know what Danaerys meant, and Jon knows even less than the viewers; at that moment he didn't know that Danaerys had torched the Tarlys, so he would most likely not take it as a threat, but more as just a complaint.

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3 hours ago, LadyNoOne said:

I'm sorry, Lady, I fail to see the connection between a physician informing a patient of certain impending doom due to a condition such as cancer, and that of a person who has a choice to burn a husband/father and son alive simply because they disagree politically. 

I will stand by this, so perhaps Dany will burn me.

It is interesting that many people share this assessment. I think that is what D&D want us to feel, and it does appear they are taking Dany down Mad queen path. 

I'm not quite sure it is accurate to say the Tarly's were executed "simply because they disagree politically", though.  Doesn't that whitewash the fact that they coordinated the killing of a great number of people at Highgarden, who were Dany's allies? Doesn't it ignore the fact that she offered to confirm them in their titles, per the local custom and despite their attack, if they joined her? She also seemed inclined to allow them to go to the wall, before they refused, didn't she? 

Is what Dany did morally worse than Ned Stark executing the deserter in S1E1? Could that man not have been offered another chance once he settled down? He didn't kill anyone, and was running for his life. Or if he was "mad", as Ned said, is he even responsible for his actions? Did Ned kill someone he believed to be mentally ill? How about when Jon executed Janos? Janos wasn't executed for killing anyone. He also apologized and asked for mercy. Could he not have been given endless latrine digging duty at another castle (to separate him from Thorne) instead? 

Of course morality is all upside down in Westeros and we shouldn't execute any prisoners or feed people to dogs (lol), but it is interesting how the way in which they present it colors our reactions. By the Westerosi and GOT fandom standards, it seems to be OK to kill people in your power if you are Ned or Jon. But for Dany it's not OK, even if the Tarly's were responsible for the deaths of thousands, where the deserter and Slynt were not. 

I do think Dany's executing the Tarly's was politically boneheaded. If she had taken Randall Tarly prisoner, she likely has Dickon and Horn Hill on her side. Possibly Sam now, too. Instead she pulled a Joffrey and shut that possibility down.

 

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4 hours ago, Lady Rhodes said:

 reminded me of the way a doctor tells you a poor diagnosis: honest, direct, respecting you enough to give you the information straight from them and not find out through another avenue, and then giving him leave to compose himself.

 

Usually the doctor isn't the one who gives you the disease or injury. 

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1 hour ago, Kajjo said:

Hm, I don't think she is compensating. She has just a lot of blackwhite thinking in herself. Someone committed a crime, the obvious solution is execution. No matter the crime. Someone doesn't want to bend the knee. Execution. She is sometimes overly protective, sometimes overly aggressive. The is not much middle ground in Daenerys' feelings about and reaction towards peopl e

However she feels about things, Westeros has a system of law and customs that don't look kindly upon summary execution for Lords who have laid down their arms. Even if they were rebels. Someone should have taught Danny about them.

And while they're at it, remind her she's never known this continent and her dynasty has been out of power for 20 years because it burned too many people alive. 

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1 hour ago, LadyNoOne said:

Does Dany need to execute anyone who does not bend the knee?  I think people can be a resource (that was an obvious Walking Dead ref... sorry for crossover)  what fun! :)

Negan was rather inconsistent on that count in his rulership. Some enemies he pulled into his bosom and loved like childhood buddies. Others he turned into slaves or forced to marry him. He was decent to the main cast even though they killed like 40 of his men, but less threatening groups were wiped out. 

Danny needs to pick a lane, too. Be Miss Wheel Breaker and do whatever she wants or fit in. 

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9 minutes ago, BloodyOther said:

It is interesting that many people share this assessment. I think that is what D&D want us to feel, and it does appear they are taking Dany down Mad queen path. 

I'm not quite sure it is accurate to say the Tarly's were executed "simply because they disagree politically", though.  Doesn't that whitewash the fact that they coordinated the killing of a great number of people at Highgarden, who were Dany's allies? Doesn't it ignore the fact that she offered to confirm them in their titles, per the local custom and despite their attack, if they joined her? She also seemed inclined to allow them to go to the wall, before they refused, didn't she? 

Is what Dany did morally worse than Ned Stark executing the deserter in S1E1? Could that man not have been offered another chance once he settled down? He didn't kill anyone, and was running for his life. Or if he was "mad", as Ned said, is he even responsible for his actions? Did Ned kill someone he believed to be mentally ill? How about when Jon executed Janos? Janos wasn't executed for killing anyone. He also apologized and asked for mercy. Could he not have been given endless latrine digging duty at another castle (to separate him from Thorne) instead? 

Of course morality is all upside down in Westeros and we shouldn't execute any prisoners or feed people to dogs (lol), but it is interesting how the way in which they present it colors our reactions. By the Westerosi and GOT fandom standards, it seems to be OK to kill people in your power if you are Ned or Jon. But for Dany it's not OK, even if the Tarly's were responsible for the deaths of thousands, where the deserter and Slynt were not. 

I do think Dany's executing the Tarly's was politically boneheaded. If she had taken Randall Tarly prisoner, she likely has Dickon and Horn Hill on her side. Possibly Sam now, too. Instead she pulled a Joffrey and shut that possibility down.

 

Hi, I think your argument is well thought out and expressed.  I would extend that to the following:

1) Agree with Cersei and Dany kills the lot of you.

2) The converse (not logically true but in this case just so happens to be).

Dany does not feel she is a villain.  I don't feel she is, either.  She did what she felt needed to be done.

On the other hand, I felt Samwell put it best that Jon should be King (though we all know he won't) because he lay down his crown for the better of his people but Dany isn't likely to do that.  

I feel conflicted in this latter.   We aren't born with instruction manuals :)  How is someone supposed to be wholly good without a balance with tyranny.  Of course, those of us with Democratic governments already know the answer -- my opinion.   Cheers,

 

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