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I'm wondering about this too. 

It was the payment that stood out. Qyburn said Cersei always pays up front and always in gold. Except in the immediately preceding scene with Cersei and Euron in the throne room, they were haggling over payment and sex was one of those payments. Qyburn was there, so he outright lied to Bronn. 

There's also a problem in that Cersei shows no anger at Jaime at all, in fact, she seems sad. Tyrion isn't brought up at all IIRC. 

There are also a few key camera shots of Qyburn. He's shocked that Cersei is happy that the dead crossed the Wall and he's shocked that Cersei agrees to pay Euron early. We're supposed to pay attention to him. 

The scene does offer a possible motive for Qyburn. He goes on about how if he isn't hand, he's nothing. But he sees Cersei change her mind and accept Euron and is visibly shocked. She's vulnerable, and can possibly be swayed now by Jaime and Tyrion, at least in Qyburn's eyes and that probably wouldn't be good for him.

Or it could be bad writing. Not like that hasn't happened before.  

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1 hour ago, Lollygag said:

I'm wondering about this too. 

It was the payment that stood out. Qyburn said Cersei always pays up front and always in gold. Except in the immediately preceding scene with Cersei and Euron in the throne room, they were haggling over payment and sex was one of those payments. Qyburn was there, so he outright lied to Bronn. 

There's also a problem in that Cersei shows no anger at Jaime at all, in fact, she seems sad. Tyrion isn't brought up at all IIRC. 

There are also a few key camera shots of Qyburn. He's shocked that Cersei is happy that the dead crossed the Wall and he's shocked that Cersei agrees to pay Euron early. We're supposed to pay attention to him. 

The scene does offer a possible motive for Qyburn. He goes on about how if he isn't hand, he's nothing. But he sees Cersei change her mind and accept Euron and is visibly shocked. She's vulnerable, and can possibly be swayed now by Jaime and Tyrion, at least in Qyburn's eyes and that probably wouldn't be good for him.

Or it could be bad writing. Not like that hasn't happened before.  

So you don't think Qyburns motives could be more to the fact he is questioning if he is on the right side?

Does Qyburn actually think that if he pays Bron up front, he would complete the task? 

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Posted (edited)

I saw things a little different than most.  Qyburn for the first time looked displeased with Cersei when she brushed off the news on the Wall falling & the dead crossing.  Then he actually looked quite impressed with Euron in that scene & the scene where he made his successful proposition.  I think that Qyburn has flipped to Euron or views him as having earned a spot by Cersei’s side.

I can also definitely see Euron wanting the Lannister brothers taken out.  Once they’re gone who’ll avenge him usurping or disposing of Cersei as Queen???  Notice how Qyburn advised Bronn not to worry about taking out Dany?  Hmmm.  Last season Cersei directly advised the Mountain to kill Dany first, then Tyrion, & then Jon.  Why all of a sudden is it kill Tyrion & Jaime but not Dany???  Also, one of Euron’s first lines to Cersei in the show was him telling her he wanted to marry the “most beautiful queen in the world.”  Dany is that younger more beautiful queen not Cersei.  Remember how impressed and awed he was at Dany when she landed in the dragonpit?  I think they could be setting up Euron as the Valonqar.  

They’ve made it a point to keep showing us the Mountain blocking Euron’s access to Cersei.   As if they’re foreshadowing he’s not to be trusted.  He’s been probing to see how close he can get.  Well he’s finally made it passed her protector and able to spend “alone time” with her.  God forbid they get married.  He’ll really be able to choke her out then as “king” and Qyburn will then have the Mountain fall in line and follow Euron.  Tycho did warn Cersei that Euron was only temporarily loyal.  This storyline would very much line up with Book Euron’s mentality & persona.

Edited by Smoke317

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7 hours ago, sciteacher said:

There has to be some excuse reason to get Bronn up in the north. I agree, he is a fan favorite and he does need to be in the season. This way, we get a little added value: Will he or won't he attempt to kill one or both brothers Lannister?

Bronn is the perfect character to be given this mission. Not only does it give him something to do, but it will keep the fans wondering. I know he's out for himself, but I don't think he'll be able to do it. I think deep down he considers both Tyrion and Jamie friends.

16 hours ago, Kajjo said:

Cersei wanted to kill Tyrion since he killed Tywin and ordered even a dwarf hunt. She threatened Jamie after meeting with Tyrion and again when Jamie left King's Landing at the end of S7. 

It makes sense that Cersei wants her brothers dead. 

Well, she's always wanted Tyrion dead. But Jamie surprised me. However, "Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned," and in her eyes, that's what Jaime did.

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19 hours ago, darmody said:

I don't know about love, but Qyburn appears to have genuine regard for Cersei. Otherwise he was playing a reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeal long shot when he went all-in for her back when. 

He got along with Jaime from the beginning and I think is grateful to have been lifted out of obscurity by him. 

I wouldn't go that far, but she has been loyal to him and given him space to do his experiments, so he's loyal to her as well.

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Since we're on the topic of Euron anyway, could it be possible that he's the Valonqar?
He is Balon's younger brother and we did see Cersei break down, starting to cry after he left in the latest episode.

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7 hours ago, Lollygag said:

they were haggling over payment and sex was one of those payments. Qyburn was there, so he outright lied to Bronn

This is too shortsighted.

Qyburn can easily have a wagon with gold in front of the borthel and Bronn taking his horse, the gold, the wagon and leave. This has nothing to do with Euron at all. Cersei certainly does not pay personally.

7 hours ago, Lollygag said:

There's also a problem in that Cersei shows no anger at Jaime at all, in fact, she seems sad

I felt the final departure in S7 differently. She was alone and lonely, the hatred and scorn present, Jamie disappointed her. 

In S7 she already threatened Jamie "to never deceive her again" after Jamie meeting Tyrion in the crypts.

I believe that Cersei is very angry with Jamie and feels that Jamie's loyalty ended. 

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7 hours ago, SansaJonRule said:

Bronn is the perfect character to be given this mission. Not only does it give him something to do, but it will keep the fans wondering. I know he's out for himself, but I don't think he'll be able to do it. I think deep down he considers both Tyrion and Jamie friends.

Well, she's always wanted Tyrion dead. But Jamie surprised me. However, "Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned," and in her eyes, that's what Jaime did.

I agree that Bronn is perfect for this.  He may also be counting on what Tyrion said way back in season 1, that if someone pays to kill him, he will always pay more.  Tyrion might not have any money now, so Bronn will be faced with the decision whether or not to “not kill” Tyrion for free.  

I think this is his redemption arc, he chooses to fight the Others for “noble” reasons rather than taking the money and moving on to the next job like early Bronn would have done.  

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On 4/16/2019 at 8:46 AM, Cymorococh said:

I think having Qyburn speak to Bronn was just an awkward way around the Jerome Flynn/Lena Headey drama .

Exactly! I do think it is in her contract not to work with him and Qyburn was just used as a way around this

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On 4/16/2019 at 9:01 PM, darmody said:

Outside the show, they could create a new character. I know there are only six episodes left, but this smells of "let's give Bronn something to do."

Yeah, "let's give Bronn something to bring him to danger, so we can kill him off"

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22 minutes ago, Nerevanin said:

Yeah, "let's give Bronn something to bring him to danger, so we can kill him off"

...or so that we see him again, at least. They could have written him out of it all. So many people like Bronn (me too), so they kept in in the game. Not too bad a decision. The Bronn scene however was substandard.

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On 4/16/2019 at 12:37 PM, Zehde said:

Tyrion, yes, but Jamie? I doubt that.

And I honestly can‘t see any love that Qyburn holds for anybody. All he wants is a place for his experiments. He only uses Cersei for this matter and will abandon her the second she‘s useless for him.

And I think Qyburn's already come to that conclusion. During the wight-show in the Dragonpit he became highly interested in that and almost forgot all about Cersei. When she tells him "good" to the news that the Wall has fallen, Qyburn makes a face that he's starting to wonder about her sanity, and as she leaves he stares at Euron's ships that bring in a "golden sellsword" company. Then Euron tries to cajole her into taking him to her bed. Qyburn is smiling with pride when she refuses him. You can almost see him think, "there, she's not having you." But then Euron suggests vaguely he might leave her side. It's a veiled threat. That's why Cersei gives in, after all. We don't get a shot of Qyburn's face then, but we can all imagine his displeasure about it, since he was smirking earlier when Cersei refused Euron.

Something's up with that pregnancy and when Cersei agrees to hold up her end of the bargain to Euron, she proves she has become dependent on Euron who is not loyal to anyone but himself. It's imo also one of the reasons that she's so sad once she's alone again. Her allies are sellswords and fishy Euron. That's it. And there's something that all sellswords have in common: they might sell their swords for gold, but they prefer to live over dying, and will switch sides from one to another once they find themselves on the losing side. All that gold means nothing if you're dead. And the "golden company" already has a lot of gold.

Qyburn pays Bronn in "gold", when Tyrion once said, "I pay you double what someone else pays you." And he gives Bronn the bow that Joffrey used to kill Ros and that Tyrion used to kill Tywin. It was Bron's idea to give Joffrey Ros and her friend as playmates to Joffrey when Tyrion was hand.

There's also what the prostite says to Qyburn, how he has a thing for older men. That's a callback to Pycelle. He landed in a black cell, when Tyrion caught him with a prostitute. Qyburn's answer: she'll be dead within the year of the pox. Qyburn isn't like Pycelle, in more than this aspect. Pycelle was loyal to the Lannisters to a fault, so loyal that when things shifted he overstayed his welcome and ended up dead. Qyburn isn't a fool nor loyal to the Lannisters. 

He starts the "commissioned" job talking about what position of power Cersei put him in: he's her Hand. But ultimately, as I read between the lines, Qyburn is saying that he prefers to live as a nothing rather than die as Hand, whether because Euron has more strings to power now or because he believes Cersei's power will soon be at an end. Imo Qyburn is seeing the writing on the Wall and he believes he will wind up dead if he doesn't heed it. Qyburn's very good in heeding the signs of an actual power shift happening. After Tywin left HH, and everybody was killed inside, he somehow managed to survive that and became Roose Bolton's man. When Jaime arrives he treats him, and instead of remaining with Roose Bolton, despite likely knowing about the plans of the RW, he makes sure that Jaime takes him back to KL. That makes Qyburn a sell-maester, while Bronn is a sellsword.

Bronn may love gold and castles and titles, but he loves being alive more. He refused to be Tyrion's champion during the trial about Joffrey's murder, because he was unwilling to die fighting Clegane. And he also has foregone riches out of fondness for Jaime and risked being called a traitor by setting up a meeting between the 2 brothers (which Qyburn knew about and relayed to Cersei last season). Meanwhile Bronn has no fondness for Cersei whatsoever. Qybrun would know all this about Bronn. 

So, no, this was not an order from Cersei, nor is it even Qyburn's plan to have Jaime or Tyrion killed. It's a message to Bronn to get the hell out of town asap; here's gold for all your trouble and service of the past; and perhaps you could join those brothers you're so fond of, your choice. I'm sure Bronn will understand Qyburn's underlying message; from a sell-maester to a sellsword.

 

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My screen is so dark and the scene is short, I'm not certain what Qyburn's look is about but I'd say he is pleased with Euron rather than shocked. I think that Cersei changes her mind after looking at Qyburn.

Maybe because Euron speaks the truth about the time passing before they meet again. Cersei won't get many chances at getting pregnant. She might not have been pregnant at all, she was just deceiving the Lannister brothers.

Qyburn is not acting behind Cersei's back. He thinks Bronn can be bought easily and would get close to the brothers. He reminds Bronn that it was Jaime's fault he didn't get the riches promised earlier. However it remains to be seen to whom Bronn is loyal in this case. He looks a bit baffled to me.

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A somewhat related question is whether Qyburn has any real loyalty left for Cersei. On one hand he’s done a lot of crazy ruthless things for her. On the other, when he gave her the news about the wall being breached his expression suggested he was thinking “how did I ever get involved with this moron”?

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Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, Deminelle said:

My screen is so dark and the scene is short, I'm not certain what Qyburn's look is about but I'd say he is pleased with Euron rather than shocked. I think that Cersei changes her mind after looking at Qyburn.

Maybe because Euron speaks the truth about the time passing before they meet again. Cersei won't get many chances at getting pregnant. She might not have been pregnant at all, she was just deceiving the Lannister brothers.

Qyburn is not acting behind Cersei's back. He thinks Bronn can be bought easily and would get close to the brothers. He reminds Bronn that it was Jaime's fault he didn't get the riches promised earlier. However it remains to be seen to whom Bronn is loyal in this case. He looks a bit baffled to me.

There was a signaling look between Qyburn and Cersei after she threatened Euron with execution for his insolence. We, Euron and Qyburn expect her to walk off, but surprising all, she stops and invites him. I can only conclude that Qyburn did not expect Cersei to do that, and before the signaling between himself and Qyburn, he looked at Euron in that benevolent way he has that gives you the creepy-crawleys. I do not have the impression that Qyburn admires Euron in any way.

There's no way that Qyburn believes that Bronn can be bought to kill the brothers. He was the one who discovered that Bronn tried to set up a meeting between Jaime and Tyrion in S7. He's been in KL since the Red Wedding. He's seen Bronn do all sorts of stuff for either brother. Giving up a castle, etc. The only thing that Bronn does refuse to give up for the brothers is his own life - typical sellsword.

Qyburn's no Pycelle. He's a sell-maester. He was Tywin's at HH, then Roose's at HH and then Jaime's, to finally be Cersei's. He has no loyalty other than to himself.

Edited by sweetsunray

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On 4/18/2019 at 7:24 AM, sweetsunray said:

And I think Qyburn's already come to that conclusion. During the wight-show in the Dragonpit he became highly interested in that and almost forgot all about Cersei. When she tells him "good" to the news that the Wall has fallen, Qyburn makes a face that he's starting to wonder about her sanity, and as she leaves he stares at Euron's ships that bring in a "golden sellsword" company. Then Euron tries to cajole her into taking him to her bed. Qyburn is smiling with pride when she refuses him. You can almost see him think, "there, she's not having you." But then Euron suggests vaguely he might leave her side. It's a veiled threat. That's why Cersei gives in, after all. We don't get a shot of Qyburn's face then, but we can all imagine his displeasure about it, since he was smirking earlier when Cersei refused Euron.

Something's up with that pregnancy and when Cersei agrees to hold up her end of the bargain to Euron, she proves she has become dependent on Euron who is not loyal to anyone but himself. It's imo also one of the reasons that she's so sad once she's alone again. Her allies are sellswords and fishy Euron. That's it. And there's something that all sellswords have in common: they might sell their swords for gold, but they prefer to live over dying, and will switch sides from one to another once they find themselves on the losing side. All that gold means nothing if you're dead. And the "golden company" already has a lot of gold.

Qyburn pays Bronn in "gold", when Tyrion once said, "I pay you double what someone else pays you." And he gives Bronn the bow that Joffrey used to kill Ros and that Tyrion used to kill Tywin. It was Bron's idea to give Joffrey Ros and her friend as playmates to Joffrey when Tyrion was hand.

There's also what the prostite says to Qyburn, how he has a thing for older men. That's a callback to Pycelle. He landed in a black cell, when Tyrion caught him with a prostitute. Qyburn's answer: she'll be dead within the year of the pox. Qyburn isn't like Pycelle, in more than this aspect. Pycelle was loyal to the Lannisters to a fault, so loyal that when things shifted he overstayed his welcome and ended up dead. Qyburn isn't a fool nor loyal to the Lannisters. 

He starts the "commissioned" job talking about what position of power Cersei put him in: he's her Hand. But ultimately, as I read between the lines, Qyburn is saying that he prefers to live as a nothing rather than die as Hand, whether because Euron has more strings to power now or because he believes Cersei's power will soon be at an end. Imo Qyburn is seeing the writing on the Wall and he believes he will wind up dead if he doesn't heed it. Qyburn's very good in heeding the signs of an actual power shift happening. After Tywin left HH, and everybody was killed inside, he somehow managed to survive that and became Roose Bolton's man. When Jaime arrives he treats him, and instead of remaining with Roose Bolton, despite likely knowing about the plans of the RW, he makes sure that Jaime takes him back to KL. That makes Qyburn a sell-maester, while Bronn is a sellsword.

Bronn may love gold and castles and titles, but he loves being alive more. He refused to be Tyrion's champion during the trial about Joffrey's murder, because he was unwilling to die fighting Clegane. And he also has foregone riches out of fondness for Jaime and risked being called a traitor by setting up a meeting between the 2 brothers (which Qyburn knew about and relayed to Cersei last season). Meanwhile Bronn has no fondness for Cersei whatsoever. Qybrun would know all this about Bronn. 

So, no, this was not an order from Cersei, nor is it even Qyburn's plan to have Jaime or Tyrion killed. It's a message to Bronn to get the hell out of town asap; here's gold for all your trouble and service of the past; and perhaps you could join those brothers you're so fond of, your choice. I'm sure Bronn will understand Qyburn's underlying message; from a sell-maester to a sellsword.

 

Perfect

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Posted (edited)

Qyburn is one of those characters on the show that I quite like without really knowing why. 
Probably because he has a really good heart and a the brain of a curious child. He keeps them both in jars on a shelf. 
Guess I have a soft spot for mild-mannered necromancers. 

I also realized that the mountain was the one who nearly killed him at Harrenhal, so turning him into a massive submissive (to him, not Cersei even if she probably thinks it) flesh golem can probably be seen as some sort of poetic revenge.

Belief is often the death of reason. 

Edited by MinscS2

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, MinscS2 said:

Qyburn is one of those characters on the show that I quite like without really knowing why. 
Probably because he has a really good heart and a the brain of a curious child. He keeps them both in jars on a shelf. 
Guess I have a soft spot for mild-mannered necromancers. 

I also realized that the mountain was the one who nearly killed him at Harrenhal, so turning him into a massive submissive (to him, not Cersei even if she probably thinks it) flesh golem can probably be seen as some sort of poetic revenge.

Belief is often the death of reason. 

To add to this it was Robb Stark that saved him from sure death. 

 

Oh how I would so love to see a Bron vs Euron one on one battle. 

Edited by Error-504

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Posted (edited)

I hope Qyburns end is the little birds stabbing him to death at the order of Varys.

 

On 4/16/2019 at 3:06 PM, MinscS2 said:

That's probably the main reason and let's be honest, do we really need a better one?
Bronn is a fan favorite, he needs to be in the final season somehow.
 

Bronn should have died when Daenerys attacked with Dothraki and dragons.

Edited by longest night

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