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hiemal

Strange Fruit and Mirror People: A Couple Minor Tinfoils

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Posted (edited)

Neither worth an entire thread, but still worth at least a mention?

Strange Fruit: The Literal Children of the Forest

What if Children are the "seed"-bearing fruit of the weirwood trees? What if the roots we see growing from the greenseers in Bloodraven's cave aren't growing into their bodies but out of?

This would explain the bloody appearance of the paste that Bran is given without resorting to Jojen.

It would explain the significance of sacrifice- the First Men seeing them preparing a "seed' for planting would probably be misinterpreted?

I can't think of any way it would really impact the story or even be really "testable" but it seems like GRRM might played around with ideas like this in his Tuff Voyaging series so I thought it worth bringing up...

The Yellow Emperor and the Mirror People

Not an expert in Chinese mythology but I recently stumbled on the legend of the Yellow Emperor and the mirror people: basically in the ancient past people from the Mirror World invaded ours and were only stopped by being the legendary Yellow Emperor who used his magic to imprison them for 10,000 years. During this imprisonment the lowest ranking members of the mirror folk must take on human form and mimic the actions of people who look into the mirror. The flash of light a person sometimes glimpses out of the corner of their eye is related to the seal that keeps them imprisoned and on the day that it is no longer seen the mirror people will be free to invade once more.

OK- so we know that there are are/were Yellow Emperors in Yi Ti and what I'm pondering is the Wall as the "Mirror" that divides the two worlds, the White Walkers being the members of the Others' race that mimics humans, many descriptions of light flashing or glistening on the Wall, and the long time spans involved. It seems possible to me that this legend might have been one of the threads woven into lore of Ice and Fire, but probably not one that reveals anything particularly important but also warranting a few words.

 

 

Edited by hiemal

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I like the first idea. Not much to support it, but the idea of a seemingly figurative name being completely literal is funny, and classic "hidden in plain sight". 

There is the correlation of dwindling numbers of both weirwoods and cotf, and the very slow birth rate of the cotf, though. Even if correlation does not imply causation. 

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On 4/15/2019 at 9:22 PM, hiemal said:

Strange Fruit: The Literal Children of the Forest

What if Children are the "seed"-bearing fruit of the weirwood trees? What if the roots we see growing from the greenseers in Bloodraven's cave aren't growing into their bodies but out of?

How would you explain what is happening to the three-eyed crow, who is a man of the NW not a child of the forest?

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39 minutes ago, the trees have eyes said:

How would you explain what is happening to the three-eyed crow, who is a man of the NW not a child of the forest?

If the 3EC is indeed Bloodraven, then I would say that  human greenseers would have to be integrated into the weirnet in a different way than the CotF since humans don't contain any hypothetical seeds by either allowing roots to enter their flesh -or- that maybe they could somehow also become "seedlings" by ingesting the paste and sprouting like a psychic potato with a thousand eyes and one.

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On 5/3/2019 at 8:22 PM, hiemal said:

If the 3EC is indeed Bloodraven, then I would say that  human greenseers would have to be integrated into the weirnet in a different way than the CotF since humans don't contain any hypothetical seeds by either allowing roots to enter their flesh -or- that maybe they could somehow also become "seedlings" by ingesting the paste and sprouting like a psychic potato with a thousand eyes and one.

Seems a bit like you're having it both ways.  Either the trees incorporate the singers into the weirnet to become part of the collective "godhood" of the Children (I think so) or the singers contain the literal godhood within them and "give birth" to it in due course.  What is happening to the three eyed crow and to Bran is what happens to any singer and they are being hooked up to the weirnet in the same manner.  The Children are dying out but by co-opting human greenseers their memories and some kind of spiritual consciousness will remain behind after they are gone.  How much power can be wielded through the weirnet and to what ends remains to be seen.

The weirnet needs greenseers to power it and we see that human ones work just as well as Children so I would say it is the magic of being a greenseer rather than any quality of the Children that powers the weirnet.  The Children, being a much older and more established civilization than any of the human ones, discovered and tapped into this long before humans and probably (wisely) kept this secret from them - leaving aside The Order of The Green Men and recent actions in extremis involving the three-eyed crow and Bran.

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8 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

Seems a bit like you're having it both ways.   Either the trees incorporate the singers into the weirnet to become part of the collective "godhood" of the Children (I think so) or the singers contain the literal godhood within them and "give birth" to it in due course.

I think of it as covering all of the bases. And I am wary of dualities, even of the either/or variety. If the CotF are some kind of seed, then I think the physical structure of the weirnet itself, the trees, would incorporate the soul energy of the Children -and- be perpetuated in some way by their physical essences. Since the weirnet exists to some extant outside of linear time I'm not sure the usual chicken/egg dilemma applies, anyways.

8 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

  What is happening to the three eyed crow and to Bran is what happens to any singer and they are being hooked up to the weirnet in the same manner.

Could be. Why, though? The greensight works without such extreme measures, it seems, so the only other reason I can see for doing so would be to somehow to preserve the life of the greenseer, which we are told is shortened by their gift. Plausible, but it smacks of trying to work around the natural order weirnet seems to represent overall so I like to consider other alternatives.

8 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

  The Children are dying out but by co-opting human greenseers their memories and some kind of spiritual consciousness will remain behind after they are gone.  How much power can be wielded through the weirnet and to what ends remains to be seen.

I don't think greenseers are needed for that preservation- anyone who has bought into the Old Gods' soul cycle with blood will go into the weirnet on death, barring unforseen circumstances.

8 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

The weirnet needs greenseers to power it and we see that human ones work just as well as Children so I would say it is the magic of being a greenseer rather than any quality of the Children that powers the weirnet. 

I think the cycle is powered by blood and souls and accessed the same way. What determines how much access an individual is given, whether it be greendreams, skinchanging, or the greensight, is unknown and not really covered by this topic as I'm more talking about the CotF's relationship with the physical trees not the weirnet that the trees manifest. Are the CotF a seperate species that like man has formed a relationship with the trees through blood sacrifice or might they creations of the trees?

8 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

 The Children, being a much older and more established civilization than any of the human ones,

Or at least claiming to be...

8 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

 discovered and tapped into this long before humans and probably (wisely) kept this secret from them - leaving aside The Order of The Green Men and recent actions in extremis involving the three-eyed crow and Bran.

Could be. Did they do so solely on Westeros?

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22 hours ago, hiemal said:

Why, though? The greensight works without such extreme measures, it seems, so the only other reason I can see for doing so would be to somehow to preserve the life of the greenseer, which we are told is shortened by their gift.

Power though that is conjecture as we don't know what the weirnet can be used for.  As singers are enthroned at the end of their lives it doesn't suggest they need the weirnet to be greenseers, rather they become it when they pass on, whether that is a collective consciousness / racial library or a power source that a really gifted greenseer could tap into for unspecified ends.  Probably the latter; Bran has been brought there for a reason - right back in AGOT the three eyed crow showed him something in the Heart of Winter: "Now you know why you must live" (AGOT: Bran III).

23 hours ago, hiemal said:

I don't think greenseers are needed for that preservation- anyone who has bought into the Old Gods' soul cycle with blood will go into the weirnet on death, barring unforseen circumstances.

Only the greenseers get enthroned.  A blood sacrifice before a heart tree may be a form of rite but I don't think that either the victim / offering or the priest enter the weirnet that way.  Something of the souls of the Children remain in the ravens they warged (something Bran learns in one of his lessons) but they and Haggon embarking on his second life are wargs on part of their journey, a journey that both humans and Children can embark upon, and something of the souls of Child and human greenseers remains in the weirnet due to the ritual undertaken to preserve them in it.  In other words there's an inherently magical nature to the trees that can be tapped into like other power sources if you understand how (glass candles, "hinges" of the world) in this case as a form of blood magic.

23 hours ago, hiemal said:

the CotF's relationship with the physical trees not the weirnet that the trees manifest. Are the CotF a seperate species that like man has formed a relationship with the trees through blood sacrifice or might they creations of the trees?

In that case I would say they are a separate species and other than the enthroning of the singers we have no particular reason to think otherwise.  Bran identifies males and females amongst the children which suggests normal reproductive methods, Leaf has lived a goodly span of years as the Children tend to without displaying any hint that her centuries of life is an (ab)normally long larval stage and most significantly for me both the three eyed crow and Bran appear to be human greenseers hooked into the weirnet without any apparent problem.  We know they aren't literal seeds in terms of the weirwood species so it's the magic in their blood and it's use in powering the weirnet in the absence of suitable Children (no remaining greenseers) that makes them important.

23 hours ago, hiemal said:

Or at least claiming to be...

Any particular reason to doubt this or any significance if it were not so?

23 hours ago, hiemal said:

Could be. Did they do so solely on Westeros?

That would depend on weirwoods being native to Essos / Sothyros / other places and the Children both evolving there and evolving cultures capable of developing greenseers and learning how to tap into the the magic of the weirnet.  Horses and oxen were not native to the Americas and the Incas built their civilizations and grand structures without ever discovering the wheel or using draught animals if you'll bear with my scattergun analogy.  Even in Westeros people don't believe in the Children of the Forest any more and in ASOIAF there is nothing to hint at Chlidren or weirwoods in Essos.  The world book may hint at Children-like creatures in the woods of the north of Essos in the past but that's all I'm aware of.  If there are any with a similar culture and capabilities it would be hard to see how the weirnet could be powered across oceans or how this would chime with Leaf's belief her people are dying out.

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Posted (edited)
19 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

Power though that is conjecture as we don't know what the weirnet can be used for.  As singers are enthroned at the end of their lives it doesn't suggest they need the weirnet to be greenseers, rather they become it when they pass on, whether that is a collective consciousness / racial library or a power source that a really gifted greenseer could tap into for unspecified ends.  Probably the latter; Bran has been brought there for a reason - right back in AGOT the three eyed crow showed him something in the Heart of Winter: "Now you know why you must live" (AGOT: Bran III).

 

But all followers of the Old Gods join the cycle of souls on death, unless something else claims their soul's energy like a valyrian steel sword. What is gained but a kind of half life? Is the reasoing for doing so and the end result the same for CotF greenseers and for human ones? Bloodravens throne seems to be removed from the other CotF that Bran finds in that state.

19 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

Only the greenseers get enthroned.  A blood sacrifice before a heart tree may be a form of rite but I don't think that either the victim / offering or the priest enter the weirnet that way. 

Well, they don't NEED to enter the weirnet that way, obviously, but I would assume that the souls released in sacrifice WOULD enter the weirnet. But that's not what I'm driving at.

 

 

19 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

 In other words there's an inherently magical nature to the trees that can be tapped into like other power sources if you understand how (glass candles, "hinges" of the world) in this case as a form of blood magic.
 

 

19 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

In that case I would say they are a separate species and other than the enthroning of the singers we have no particular reason to think otherwise.

There's the name- the "children" of the Forest. It could be that it isn't just about their small size.

19 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

  Bran identifies males and females amongst the children which suggests normal reproductive methods,

He identifies them as appearing male and female, anyways.

19 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

Leaf has lived a goodly span of years as the Children tend to without displaying any hint that her centuries of life is an (ab)normally long larval stage

Why would she? We don't know how long a hypothetical "fruiting" stage would last for an imaginary species, anyways.

19 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

and most significantly for me both the three eyed crow and Bran appear to be human greenseers hooked into the weirnet without any apparent problem.

Why would there be a problem? Both are from the families of First Men whose ancestors "bought into" the Old Gods soul cycle with blood sacrifice.

19 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

  We know they aren't literal seeds in terms of the weirwood species so it's the magic in their blood and it's use in powering the weirnet in the absence of suitable Children (no remaining greenseers) that makes them important.
 

I think you might be confusing the act of buying into the soul cycle (the weirnet) and that of propagating its physical manifestation., i.e. the weirwood trees.

19 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

Any particular reason to doubt this or any significance if it were not so?

General mistrust of the timelines presented to us and other tinfoils as to the nature of the continents and the species that first arose on each. The CotF claim an awfully long period of isolation from the rest of the world- is that realistic, is it honest? I'm not sure, but I'm certainly not convinced.

19 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

That would depend on weirwoods being native to Essos / Sothyros / other places and the Children both evolving there and evolving cultures capable of developing greenseers and learning how to tap into the the magic of the weirnet.  Horses and oxen were not native to the Americas and the Incas built their civilizations and grand structures without ever discovering the wheel or using draught animals if you'll bear with my scattergun analogy.  Even in Westeros people don't believe in the Children of the Forest any more and in ASOIAF there is nothing to hint at Chlidren or weirwoods in Essos.  The world book may hint at Children-like creatures in the woods of the north of Essos in the past but that's all I'm aware of.  If there are any with a similar culture and capabilities it would be hard to see how the weirnet could be powered across oceans or how this would chime with Leaf's belief her people are dying out.

Perhaps the CotF are simply one form of a species with a lot of physical variance. My "main" tinfoil on the subject is that they are one branch from a world-wide tree that originated with the  Mazemakers and includes the giants, the Lengii, the Naathi, and the Merlings and the Children and their Essosi counterparts.

Edited by hiemal

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On 5/11/2019 at 8:51 PM, hiemal said:

But all followers of the Old Gods join the cycle of souls on death, unless something else claims their soul's energy like a valyrian steel sword. What is gained but a kind of half life?

Do they?  This is very close to saying the mere act of belief in the Old Gods grants the believer passage into the afterlife with the weirwoods creating the actual kingdom of heaven for them to inhabit for eternity.  The weirwoods seem to capture memories that occur in front of them, whether sacrifices or children playing with sticks, and Bran has given us a tantalizing glimpse of being able to interact with living persons in the present (Theon) and of seeming to interact with memories from the past (Ned) but there's plenty of room between memories or visions and souls or consciousness.

On 5/11/2019 at 8:51 PM, hiemal said:

Is the reasoing for doing so and the end result the same for CotF greenseers and for human ones? Bloodravens throne seems to be removed from the other CotF that Bran finds in that state.

Well we don't know what the weirnet's real purpose is but it seems to be both a racial and cultural repository of knowledge consisting of and powered by the greenseers and a tool, possibly a weapon, that the Children are keen to keep in working order against the Heart of Winter towards which ends they have persuaded the three eyed crow and are grooming Bran to join them in.  The humans would be more concerned with the second aim that the first aim of the Children but that's more than enough of a coincidence of interests.

I don't remember (or, if it was, deduce any particular significance from) the three eyed crow's throne being separate from the others.  Tree roots grow where they will so the person to be enthroned is placed in the most logical place based on that.  As the centre or root ball is used up they'll move to the periphery and the last person to be enthroned is likely to be at the periphery vis-a-vis the others.

On 5/11/2019 at 8:51 PM, hiemal said:

Well, they don't NEED to enter the weirnet that way, obviously, but I would assume that the souls released in sacrifice WOULD enter the weirnet. But that's not what I'm driving at.

The blood magic would empower something but that it would transfer the soul for millennia / eternity of either the willing victim and believer or the unwilling sacrifice and non-believer offered up as a tribute I'm not so sold on.

On 5/11/2019 at 8:51 PM, hiemal said:

There's the name- the "children" of the Forest. It could be that it isn't just about their small size.

But that's not the name they give themselves.  Humans gave them that name because they are small and live in the forests. Leaf tells this to Bran so unless you want to assume she is lying it's no different to the giants calling them little squirrel people for their small size and living in the woods.  The "Children" call themselves Singers of the songs of earth which is quite different.

On 5/11/2019 at 8:51 PM, hiemal said:

He identifies them as appearing male and female, anyways.

Why would she? We don't know how long a hypothetical "fruiting" stage would last for an imaginary species, anyways.

Well true but there's no need of male and female characteristics if they are seeds.  Bran may be young but he doesn't display confusion as to any lack of gender and attempt to ascribe it to ease that confusion.  Jojen and Meera name the singers so there's no reason to think they are confused either.

And no we don't know how long a seed would lie dormant or what conditions are necessary for it to fruit.  I just find it odd that a species dying out would co-opt another species into it's cultural-religious paradigm rather than attempting to plant it's seeds and allow trees to grow and produce yet more seeds, particularly when one seed talks of hundreds of years of existence.  It seems to argue against the seed hypothesis.

On 5/11/2019 at 8:51 PM, hiemal said:

Why would there be a problem? Both are from the families of First Men whose ancestors "bought into" the Old Gods soul cycle with blood sacrifice.

If I follow you here anyone can be a seed as long as they worship the Old Gods, had an ancestor who "bought in" via blood magic and possess the power of a greenseer.  The Children believe that they go "down into the earth," she answered. "Into the stones, into the trees." (Leaf, Bran III ADWD) but only the greenseers are enthroned at the end of their lives, imo in order to power the weirnet in a synthesis of the magical nature of the tree and of the greenseer.  I don't see how or why the singers would be the larval stage of a species that could simply co-opt another species in specific circumstances to become the larval stage in their stead.  Yes we have magic in this world but it doesn't allow a man to lay an egg. 

Much more likely magic is an inherent force that displays itself in a few Singers and Humans and empowers those Humans to tap into magic (whether they understand it or not), Mel with her fires and glamours, Thoros (and Beric) with the kiss of fire, Arya as both a warg and an initiate of the Faceless Men and of course Bran who appears particularly gifted.  I don't think he's a seed for a new weirwood or Ellcrys just a potentially powerful greenseer the children want to use for their two aims.

On 5/11/2019 at 8:51 PM, hiemal said:

I think you might be confusing the act of buying into the soul cycle (the weirnet) and that of propagating its physical manifestation., i.e. the weirwood trees.

Quite possibly as I don't envison the soul cycle as you term it as some kind of afterlife that millions of children and First Men have passed into, presided over by the priest class via the weirwoods. 

On 5/11/2019 at 8:51 PM, hiemal said:

General mistrust of the timelines presented to us and other tinfoils as to the nature of the continents and the species that first arose on each. The CotF claim an awfully long period of isolation from the rest of the world- is that realistic, is it honest? I'm not sure, but I'm certainly not convinced.

I'm still not sure of the relevance of this unless it's to generally distrust what Leaf tells us of the Children.  Human legends tell of The First Men coming to Westeros by the Broken arm of Dorne (Garth Greenhand and others in the the Age of Legends).  Either the Children were already here or they came with them and as the latter is never attested to as part of any of the human migrations it seems logical that the Children were already here.  Exact time spans whether in the reckoning of Humans and Children alike are not intended to be accurate and merely evidence "a long time".

On 5/11/2019 at 8:51 PM, hiemal said:

Perhaps the CotF are simply one form of a species with a lot of physical variance. My "main" tinfoil on the subject is that they are one branch from a world-wide tree that originated with the  Mazemakers and includes the giants, the Lengii, the Naathi, and the Merlings and the Children and their Essosi counterparts.

Uh, okay then.  The Children and giants certainly seem separate species to me and the giants reproduce sexually among themselves with the occasional cross-species interaction with humans if tales are to be believed.  You might want to consider what degree of differentiation allows for speciation as opposed to physical variances between members of a given species.  Certainly if they came from the same root stock evolution has taken them in very different directions.

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

Do they?  This is very close to saying the mere act of belief in the Old Gods grants the believer passage into the afterlife with the weirwoods creating the actual kingdom of heaven for them to inhabit for eternity.  The weirwoods seem to capture memories that occur in front of them, whether sacrifices or children playing with sticks, and Bran has given us a tantalizing glimpse of being able to interact with living persons in the present (Theon) and of seeming to interact with memories from the past (Ned) but there's plenty of room between memories or visions and souls or consciousness.

A soul cycle is not an afterlife- it is, after all, a cycle. It is the hypothetical flow energy from individual beings into the weirnet and back out again. Individual personalities and memories seem to play little part in this overall.

5 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

Well we don't know what the weirnet's real purpose is but it seems to be both a racial and cultural repository of knowledge consisting of and powered by the greenseers

If so it would seem to be the weirwoods' repository, and not the Children or humans, because it is the trees own "experience" that greenseers draw on.

5 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

 a tool, possibly a weapon, that the Children are keen to keep in working order against the Heart of Winter towards which ends they have persuaded the three eyed crow and are grooming Bran to join them in.  The humans would be more concerned with the second aim that the first aim of the Children but that's more than enough of a coincidence of interests.

I agree with you there. Another piece of tinfoil I have is that the weirnet can be used offensively not just in mobilizing animals via warging but focusing energy somehow to produce events like breaking the Arm of Dorne and the Nagga Incident remembered by the Ironborn. It might have been to power such a network that the seasons were originally put out of whack as they sought to create a Land of Summer for themselves...

5 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

I don't remember (or, if it was, deduce any particular significance from) the three eyed crow's throne being separate from the others.  Tree roots grow where they will so the person to be enthroned is placed in the most logical place based on that.  As the centre or root ball is used up they'll move to the periphery and the last person to be enthroned is likely to be at the periphery vis-a-vis the others.

Perhaps, but IIRC, other greenseers are clustered together and a good Hodor-back ride away- Bran describes seeing many of them and thinking they were dead until he saw eyes moving. Perhaps it doesn't mean anything in particular, but I'm bored and exploring the possibility that it does.

5 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

The blood magic would empower something but that it would transfer the soul for millennia / eternity of either the willing victim and believer or the unwilling sacrifice and non-believer offered up as a tribute I'm not so sold on.

Me either. I don't know what meaning time has "inside" a soul cycle, but joining one is more like moving energy around than an afterlife. I'm sorry if I haven't been clear on that but in this case "soul" is more about some kind of "animus" or life energy than a transfer of conscious awareness. All the evidence I've seen points to those things being tied to the material world.

5 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

But that's not the name they give themselves.  Humans gave them that name because they are small and live in the forests. Leaf tells this to Bran so unless you want to assume she is lying it's no different to the giants calling them little squirrel people for their small size and living in the woods.  The "Children" call themselves Singers of the songs of earth which is quite different.

That's true, but it is the name that GRRM gives and that he uses it throughout. I also think that their own name for themselves fits this as well- they would be the voices as well as the hands, feet, and a part of their reproductive cycle in such a case.

5 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

Well true but there's no need of male and female characteristics if they are seeds.  Bran may be young but he doesn't display confusion as to any lack of gender and attempt to ascribe it to ease that confusion.  Jojen and Meera name the singers so there's no reason to think they are confused either.

If the Children were produced by the weirwoods the trees could have made them so that they would fit in with the life around them, perhaps going so far as to produce the appearance of separate genders -or-  it could be that the CotF are capable of reproducing themselves but only produce trees under special circumstances.

5 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

And no we don't know how long a seed would lie dormant or what conditions are necessary for it to fruit.  I just find it odd that a species dying out would co-opt another species into it's cultural-religious paradigm rather than attempting to plant it's seeds and allow trees to grow and produce yet more seeds, particularly when one seed talks of hundreds of years of existence.  It seems to argue against the seed hypothesis.

Mankind was an active threat, they had to reach an accord or be wiped out. All of the weirwoods in Essos were already gone and they were making a good start on Westeros.

5 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

If I follow you here anyone can be a seed as long as they worship the Old Gods, had an ancestor who "bought in" via blood magic and possess the power of a greenseer.  The Children believe that they go "down into the earth," she answered. "Into the stones, into the trees." (Leaf, Bran III ADWD) but only the greenseers are enthroned at the end of their lives, imo in order to power the weirnet in a synthesis of the magical nature of the tree and of the greenseer.  I don't see how or why the singers would be the larval stage of a species that could simply co-opt another species in specific circumstances to become the larval stage in their stead.  Yes we have magic in this world but it doesn't allow a man to lay an egg. 

Maybe, but I think it is more likely that human greenseers are a little different than their Children counterparts.

5 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

Much more likely magic is an inherent force that displays itself in a few Singers and Humans and empowers those Humans to tap into magic (whether they understand it or not), Mel with her fires and glamours, Thoros (and Beric) with the kiss of fire, Arya as both a warg and an initiate of the Faceless Men and of course Bran who appears particularly gifted.  I don't think he's a seed for a new weirwood or Ellcrys just a potentially powerful greenseer the children want to use for their two aims.

The name Bran is pretty significant in the whole ragnarok/yggradisil thing so I think that may be pretty much what he is.

5 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

Quite possibly as I don't envison the soul cycle as you term it as some kind of afterlife that millions of children and First Men have passed into, presided over by the priest class via the weirwoods.

Pschopomps not priests. The ravens also serve this purpose. While the Seven may promise an afterlife, the Old Gods do not.

5 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

I'm still not sure of the relevance of this unless it's to generally distrust what Leaf tells us of the Children.  Human legends tell of The First Men coming to Westeros by the Broken arm of Dorne (Garth Greenhand and others in the the Age of Legends).  Either the Children were already here or they came with them and as the latter is never attested to as part of any of the human migrations it seems logical that the Children were already here.  Exact time spans whether in the reckoning of Humans and Children alike are not intended to be accurate and merely evidence "a long time".

To try and fit it together with the history of the rest of the world- both the Children and giants seem to have existed historically on other continents. When did traffic stop, if it ever existed?

5 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

Uh, okay then.  The Children and giants certainly seem separate species to me and the giants reproduce sexually among themselves with the occasional cross-species interaction with humans if tales are to be believed.  You might want to consider what degree of differentiation allows for speciation as opposed to physical variances between members of a given species.  Certainly if they came from the same root stock evolution has taken them in very different directions.

I think those differences pale in comparison to the CotF and the merlings. I don't know how much evolution had to do with it, though. More likely mutation (like that found in places like Stygai and Mantarys) and genetic manipulation (such as was carried out on Gorgossos) .

Edited by hiemal

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