Jon (Aegon) and Daenerys

[Mrmanick1182]

10 minutes ago, AryaNymeriaVisenya said:

@Mrmanick1182 I feel like you aren't seeing the bigger picture here. Its why she killed him. Because he would not submit to her. She could have imprisoned them but she didn't. I'm reminded of Mance who refused to submit and was torched by Stannis. Jon was disgusted and put him out of his misery. Not only that, this was a young man who clearly was just loyal to his father. He deserved to die for that? Danaerys is full of binaries. 'They can live in my new world or die in their old one' being a past example. There is no compromise, there is no middle ground and that is all well and good with something simple as being anti-slavery but things are much more complicated in Westeros.

Im not sure you actually watched that episode. 

Did she randomly walk up to innocent lords just minding their business and say bend the knee or die? No. These men we her ENEMIES who literally just a couple of hours ago sacked highgarden and killed (though she poisoned herself) Lady Olenna. You know, his leige lord. Did Randyl tarly sue for mercy for her? No. 

Even after he was defeated and given multiple chances to save his own life he still insisted on sticking to his pride by using some of the most ridiculous reasoning ive heard in GOT.  He had to stick to his pride against this foreign invader even though she was born in westeros, he obviously just came from the castle and city her family built (kings landing, red keep), and yeah you fought for house targaryen during roberts rebellion. 

He was given a choice and he made it. What was she supposed to do. Take him and all of the others as prisoners though shes currently engaged in open war and does not have the resources to do that. 

And the son died because of his own stupidity and bad writing. 

 

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

Olenna was not his leige Lord. She was not a Tyrell, she was a Redwyne. The whole line of Tyrells were dead. Yes, she was holding up in Highgarden but she was Lady of nothing. Olenna was in no position to make any alliances.

Consider the perspective of the crown. Granny Olenna was holding up in the castle that the crown wants to pass to Tarly as there are no remaining heirs.

[Kajjo]

1 minute ago, Mrmanick1182 said:

literally just a couple of hours ago sacked highgarden

No, not literally. The caravan surely needed weeks to reach King's Landing. The Sack of Highgarden has taken place weeks earlier.

2 minutes ago, Mrmanick1182 said:

These men we her ENEMIES

Yes, they were her opponents -- and are now prisoners of war. There's no need to kill them.

3 minutes ago, Mrmanick1182 said:

And the son died because of his own stupidity

I see it as Tyrion: It was a mistake to do so. She could have shown mercy, could have sent them to the Nightwatch, no matter what Tarly said. It was not his decision.

[LadyNoOne]

4 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Oops, I'm sorry I didn't mean to spoil. But in the trailer we know he gets it somehow.

No problems Hey, at least I know I didn't miss something! haha

[MinscS2]

8 minutes ago, Mrmanick1182 said:

*Text*

Tyrion even points out that Randall's allegiances where "somewhat flexible", in regards to him abandoning Olenna for Cersei.
He was given several choices and made his.

Seriously, Randall was a racist prick who even hated his own son simply on the merit of being "not manly enough".
The fact that people are so up in arms about calling out Dany for executing a man who wanted to kill his own son out of...pride(?)...is perplexing. 

Technically he even killed Dickon - he could've told Dickon to f*ck off and live on, pointing out that his mother and sister needs him - or once he realized that Dickon was about to be executed as well, he could've changed his mind and either bent the knee or taken the black, in an attempt to save the one son he cared about.
He did neither, so his pride caused his son to die as well.

5 minutes ago, AryaNymeriaVisenya said:

Olenna was not his leige Lord. She was not a Tyrell, she was a Redwyne. The whole line of Tyrells were dead. Yes, she was holding up in Highgarden but she was Lady of nothing. Olenna was in no position to make any alliances.

Consider the perspective of the crown. Granny Olenna was holding up in the castle that the crown wants to pass to Tarly as there are no remaining heirs.

Semantics. The show even acknowledges that Olenna is the leader of House Tyrell with all that entails.

What Randall did was betrayal, short and simple.

[El Guapo]

4 minutes ago, AryaNymeriaVisenya said:

Olenna was not his leige Lord. She was not a Tyrell, she was a Redwyne. The whole line of Tyrells were dead. Yes, she was holding up in Highgarden but she was Lady of nothing. Olenna was in no position to make any alliances.

Consider the perspective of the crown. Granny Olenna was holding up in the castle that the crown wants to pass to Tarly as there are no remaining heirs.

Yes she was her liege Lord. This was established on the show.

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

Just now, El Guapo said:

Yes she was her liege Lord. This was established on the show.

Presumably the same inheritance rules that put Cersei on the throne and Ellaria in charge of Highgarden. 

[MinscS2]

1 minute ago, AryaNymeriaVisenya said:

Presumably the same inheritance rules that put Cersei on the throne and Ellaria in charge of Highgarden. 

Presumably.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean that's not the way it is.

[Lady Rhodes]

36 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

and did you catch Sam's reply? "And you've also shown mercy."

The foil is what Dany vs. Jon do to people who lost on the battlefield.

Sam had him cornered on all points. 

They don't know about Dany's method of execution yet.

 

43 minutes ago, AryaNymeriaVisenya said:

Its not just that. Its how its been portrayed. How Tyrion tries to stop her. How Tyrion and Varys are driven to drink. How she specifically does not tell Jon about it. How the maesters don't tell Sam. How the reveal sends Sam to tell Jon who he is because Danaerys shouldn't be queen.

They've led up to this from that moment. Its the iceberg and Danaerys is the Titanic

These are valid points.  I am not saying that it isn't a turning point.  I had posted this in another thread but Dany is finally being forced to reckon with her decisions.  She starts the series in a very weak position. Because of this, she has a guttural, physical revulsion to do anything that will make her feel or appear weak.  This is her main flaw - she hates to appear weak.

We have seen this play out multiple times in Meereen.  She is not good at balancing mercy with strength in justice.  We have followed her and know that she is ultimately striving to be good.  No one else knows this though, save Jorah.  I am deeply cognizant of the reality that from a villain's perspective, they are not a villain.  We have seen her for so long, there is a tendency to sugarcoat her negative aspects.  So, as much as I like her, there are deeply valid criticisms of her.

So where does that leave me?  Dany is finally being forced to reckon with the results of her actions.  I suspect we are going to see a conversation between Tyrion and Dany regarding her dismissal of Tyrion's opinions concerning the Tarlys and her actions and what it means for her going forth.  It is deeply needed character development that should have happened in Meereen and for whatever reason, it did not. 

 I am hoping that Dany takes the time to speak one on one with Sam, Sansa, everyone and that Tyrion, Jorah, Grey Worm, and Missandei do some serious PR work on her behalf.

[Rose of Red Lake]

16 minutes ago, MinscS2 said:

Yes, and someone instantly gave you a quote of Sam being manipulative for selfish reasons.

It is true that Sam is doing this mostly for Gilly and Little Sam, but he also sees a better choice for Westeros so I dont think this is 100% selfish. He believes Dany is dangerous to everyone. Jonathan Bradley explains how he thinks Sam saw Daenerys delivering that news: 

“She comes at it in a very clinical way, and a very cold and a very detached way. And it feels psychopathic, really, that she didn’t offer him any kind of comfort at all. She says, you know, ‘They refused to bend the knee.’ And that’s a very pragmatic way of dealing with it, ‘They disobeyed me, and so I killed them.’ And in that moment he sees what a dangerous figure she is and that’s what motivates him to tell Jon.”

My take-away from that is in the huge contrast in how guilt is expressed. Sam is guilt-ridden about taking library books while Dany doesn't appear that remorseful about burning people alive. Sam runs crying from the room and Dany casually watches. I guess we'll have to wait and see how Dany reacts when they find out she burned them alive. However, GRRM has said in his Al Jazeera interview that Dany is one of the two threats that people in Westeros are blind to. Sam isn't blind.

[Kajjo]

2 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

My take-away from that is in the huge contrast in how guilt is expressed. Sam is guilt-ridden about taking library books while Dany doesn't appear that remorseful about burning people alive.

That's the best summary so far. Thank you,.

This is what this is about. Sam feeling bad about books, Daenerys not even about burning people alive. Even if both actions were sensible from the point of view of Sam and Daenerys when they did it.

[starklover]

8 hours ago, Mrmanick1182 said:

He didnt show mercy to ramsey bolton who lost on the battlefield did he? No, he let Sansa fed him to the dogs. I guess that makes them both monsters and unworthy to lead then. 

ramsey raped and beat sansa and cut off thoens dick, so he should have die.  sams father and brother didnt bow dwon to her thats why they died.

[starklover]

8 hours ago, El Guapo said:

Right. Same as Dany.

 

when as she shown mercy?

[Nictarion]

1 hour ago, princess brittany said:

when as she shown mercy?

Well for one, to Jorah. She could have very well of had him killed for betraying her instead of exiling him. 

She also took in men like Barristan and Varys who served the man that overthrew her family. 

[Ice Queen]

9 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

It is true that Sam is doing this mostly for Gilly and Little Sam, but he also sees a better choice for Westeros so I dont think this is 100% selfish. He believes Dany is dangerous to everyone. Jonathan Bradley explains how he thinks Sam saw Daenerys delivering that news: 

“She comes at it in a very clinical way, and a very cold and a very detached way. And it feels psychopathic, really, that she didn’t offer him any kind of comfort at all. She says, you know, ‘They refused to bend the knee.’ And that’s a very pragmatic way of dealing with it, ‘They disobeyed me, and so I killed them.’ And in that moment he sees what a dangerous figure she is and that’s what motivates him to tell Jon.”

My take-away from that is in the huge contrast in how guilt is expressed. Sam is guilt-ridden about taking library books while Dany doesn't appear that remorseful about burning people alive. Sam runs crying from the room and Dany casually watches. I guess we'll have to wait and see how Dany reacts when they find out she burned them alive. However, GRRM has said in his Al Jazeera interview that Dany is one of the two threats that people in Westeros are blind to. Sam isn't blind.

Rose, I completely agree with you. Do you have a link to that Al Jazeera interview? I, and a lot of other people, have been shouting from the rooftops about Daenerys and how dangerous she is. I had no idea GRRM said that.

[Nictarion]

Ofc Daenerys is a threat to Westeros. Just like Robb was. Or Stannis. Or Renly, etc. She plans to bring more war to an already war torn kingdom. And the the fact that people are blind to it is because she’s still in Essos (thanks George). Doesn’t make her any worse than any of the other players for the IT. And the show has already confirmed what most of us knew would happen, which is she put her campaign aside to help people in need. That’s kind of been her thing most of the story...

[Rose of Red Lake]

2 hours ago, Ice Queen said:

Rose, I completely agree with you. Do you have a link to that Al Jazeera interview? I, and a lot of other people, have been shouting from the rooftops about Daenerys and how dangerous she is. I had no idea GRRM said that.

Yes, here is the interview, the video version, and the forum post where it was discussed.

 

[Anthony Pirtle]

17 hours ago, MinscS2 said:

Now when the three stooges (Davos, Tyrion, Varys) finally remembered that marriage-alliances is a thing in Westeros, I'd say it's very likely.

Jon will likely try to pull out of his relationship with Daenerys, at least momentary, now when he got the news from Sam, but before he successfully manages to do that, Daenerys will throw the pregnancy-bomb in his face and he'll be right back in. Jon would never father a bastard after all.

My predictions.

I think your predictions are spot on. Anyway, Aunt/Nephew relationships are positively pedestrian for Targaryens.

[MoonKnight21]

13 hours ago, AryaNymeriaVisenya said:

@Mrmanick1182 I feel like you aren't seeing the bigger picture here. Its why she killed him. Because he would not submit to her. She could have imprisoned them but she didn't. I'm reminded of Mance who refused to submit and was torched by Stannis. Jon was disgusted and put him out of his misery. Not only that, this was a young man who clearly was just loyal to his father. He deserved to die for that? Danaerys is full of binaries. 'They can live in my new world or die in their old one' being a past example. There is no compromise, there is no middle ground and that is all well and good with something simple as being anti-slavery but things are much more complicated in Westeros.

This here, is what it comes down to. Dany will execute a person because she is power hungry. Its her way or the high way. 

 

13 hours ago, Mrmanick1182 said:

He didnt show mercy to ramsey bolton who lost on the battlefield did he? No, he let Sansa fed him to the dogs. I guess that makes them both monsters and unworthy to lead then. 

Jon not showing Ramsey mercy - COMPLETELY different context. There was an element of justice/vengence for the man who raped and tortured his sister and brother and so many others. This man had figuratively raped the north. He didnt have him executed because he wants to be king of the north. Infact he had no inclination that he would be named KitN. Nor did he want to be Lord of Winterfell. 

[Mrmanick1182]

On 4/17/2019 at 12:57 AM, MoonKnight21 said:

Jon not showing Ramsey mercy - COMPLETELY different context. There was an element of justice/vengence for the man who raped and tortured his sister and brother and so many others. This man had figuratively raped the north. He didnt have him executed because he wants to be king of the north. Infact he had no inclination that he would be named KitN. Nor did he want to be Lord of Winterfell. 

But who determines whats justice and whats not. You? 

Asking the defeated to swear fealty after a defeat is a pretty common thing in Westeros. Do you think anyone in Highgarden was offered that option? 

Tarly just finished sacking Highgarden the seat of his leige lord, killing off olenna (Jamie gave the poison but tarlys army made it possible)  which happened to be danys ally. Dany has a duty to protect or avenge her allies. But killing tarly wasnt justice in your opinion. But killing ramsay whose house literally did the same thing in killing their leige lord (Robb Stark) and taking winterfell is justice and excused? And he was fed to dogs no less. If dany fed a lord to dogs wouldnt their be 100 posts calling her "mad" and a "monster".  But not the starks though. They can fed a lord to dogs, cut anothers throat without trial and its simply justice.