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LadyNoOne

Jon (Aegon) and Daenerys

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Posted (edited)

Sam giving Dany Heartsbane is a sneaky move. He makes Jorah even more indebted to him and will be able to call on those debts when needed. He is attacking Dany through her feudal retainers in a really subtle way. Manipulative Sam is on the game board. 

Edited by Rose of Red Lake

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7 minutes ago, MinscS2 said:

Let's be real for a second. I see this statement thrown around a lot and it always baffles me.

Why would Daenerys tell Jon about it?
She doesn't know who Samwell Tarly is, and she doesn't know that Samwell and Jon are BFF's.
She knows that Randall Tarly was a defiant millitary leader who waged war against her and her allies - that's it. 

The moment she realizes who Sam is, she tells him there on the spot without trying to hide it.
She even (though Dany-haters do their best to ignore it) reacts with slight regret and seems to take pity on Sam.
Her silence isn't a sign of indifference, it's genuinely the best response given the situation. She doesn't regret killing Randall so she won't apologize for doing it, but she isn't gloating about it either. it's fully in character for her.

With that said, I expect Sam and Jorah to have a serious talk in the next episode. Doesn't he wield Heartsbane in a teaser? I doubt he took it without Sam's consent. 

I'm genuinely fine with people discussing the grey area regarding putting Dickon to the torch, but pointing out that "Dany didn't tell Jon!" is not an argument in any shape or form. You can't tell someone something you don't know...

Why would Danaerys tell Jon she killed a notable war general and patriarch of a noble house? He wouldn't be interested in that? She takes the time to say 'I have fewer enemies today than I did yesterday.'. Deliberately vague as if she knows he would not approve of her actions. 

I think Sam will give Jorah Heartsbane. I don't think he will hold it against him and its not like he can use it.

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Just now, LadyNoOne said:

Hi, the only thing I disagree with is that Dany hasn't given any indication that she is pregnant.  If she had, I think Jon would want to protect her more than ever... Yes, he has expressed that he did not want to father a bastard for fear of having the same legacy he has had to endure; but he is honorable, after all.

It's true, the theory falls apart instantly if Dany's expected pregnancy ends up being a red herring. 

With that said, it's not been that long since they "sailed together".
How soon does the average woman realize she's pregnant? After about 5 weeks? Should be right on que for episode 2 then.
Guess we'll find out very soon. :)

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4 minutes ago, El Guapo said:

True. He prefers to have his captured Lord be eaten by a bunch of dogs. lol

Now you're defending Ramsay Bolton who raped his sister. Congrats. 

Jon has executed people but he's also shown mercy when NEEDED. 

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2 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Sam giving Dany Heartsbane is a sneaky move. He makes Jorah even more indebted to him and will be able to call on those debts when needed. He is attacking Dany through her feudal retainers in a really subtle way. Manipulative Sam is on the game board. 

"Manipulative Sam"? Didn't you essentially call him truth and goodness incarnate earlier today? 

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Just now, MinscS2 said:

"Manipulative Sam"? Didn't you essentially call him truth and goodness incarnate earlier today? 

No, I said he is the moral heart of the show. People can use manipulation for the greater good. See: Ned Stark, Jon Snow.

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1 minute ago, MinscS2 said:

"Manipulative Sam"? Didn't you essentially call him truth and goodness incarnate earlier today? 

Sam definitely has the capacity to be manipulative. He got Jon elected Lord Commander, after all.

Sam would be a great tactician and politician. 

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19 minutes ago, Mrmanick1182 said:

shortsighted and selfish

It's called GRIEF. He is stricken with sadness and grief, particularly for his brother he really liked. My goodness, have a heart.

20 minutes ago, Mrmanick1182 said:

What sam needs to do is get over

Yes, and he already recovered astonishingly well. He follows Bran's instruction to tell Jon and his brain is working.

18 minutes ago, Mrmanick1182 said:

He didnt show mercy to ramsey bolton who lost on the battlefield did he

Come on, get a grip. Of course, in the world of Game of Thrones people are killed. But Ryndall Tarly was simple an opponent, he surrendered, he lost the battle. They stood there without posing any threat. She killed them just because they didn't want to bend the knee. Why should anyone bend a knee? Daenerys was not yet queen of Westeros anyway. She didn't conquer the throne, yet.

17 minutes ago, AryaNymeriaVisenya said:

this was a young man who clearly was just loyal to his father. He deserved to die for that

Exactly, that's the point. I agree.

18 minutes ago, AryaNymeriaVisenya said:

They can live in my new world or die in their old one' being a past example. There is no compromise, there is no middle ground

That's the problem with Daenerys. And again, good intentions are the opposite of good deeds, again and again. She's always on a tight-rope between madness and goodness.

12 minutes ago, MinscS2 said:

Why would Daenerys tell Jon about it?
She doesn't know who Samwell Tarly is, and she doesn't know that Samwell and Jon are BFF's.
She knows that Randall Tarly was a defiant millitary leader who waged war against her and her allies - that's it. 

Here I agree. She does not need to recount any execution to Jon. After the wight demonstration they had more important things to talk about and plan. And moving the whole congegration...

13 minutes ago, MinscS2 said:

The moment she realizes who Sam is, she tells him there on the spot without trying to hide it.
She even (though Dany-haters do their best to ignore it) reacts with slight regret and seems to take pity on Sam.

Agreed. She does not regret her actions, but she shows some sympathy. 

I am NOT a Daenerys hater at all. I just firmly believe that the show intentionally depicts her being related to the mad king. We are supposed to understand that she has a difficult personality.

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3 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Now you're defending Ramsay Bolton who raped his sister. Congrats. 

Jon has executed people but he's also shown mercy when NEEDED. 

Right. Same as Dany.

 

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2 minutes ago, AryaNymeriaVisenya said:

Why would Danaerys tell Jon she killed a notable war general and patriarch of a noble house? He wouldn't be interested in that? She takes the time to say 'I have fewer enemies today than I did yesterday.'. Deliberately vague as if she knows he would not approve of her actions. 

Of course he'd be interested in it, at least moderately, but again - why would she tell him?

He already know that she flew of to partake in a battle and that she killed a bunch of people, but he probably don't expect her to list up every man she killed and/or executed, and neither did she.

Point remains though that Daenerys had no idea about the connection between the Tarly's and Jon. 
Would she have been more inclined to show them mercy if she knew, or if she knew that Jon would strongly disapprove? 
Probably, but then we're back to square one again - she didn't know.

 

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7 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Sam giving Dany Heartsbane is a sneaky move

When he did that?! He just talked about having taken it.

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3 minutes ago, MinscS2 said:

"Manipulative Sam"? Didn't you essentially call him truth and goodness incarnate earlier today? 

So sorry to ask.. I'm a bit embarassed... When did Sam give the sword (Hartsbane) to Dany?  The last I knew he was asking for a pardon from Dany for that.. Hmm... Thanks!

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1 minute ago, El Guapo said:

Right. Same as Dany.

 

She couldn't tell that this was a time when she needed to. That is grounds to question her judgment. 

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Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

No, I said he is the moral heart of the show. People can use manipulation for the greater good. See: Ned Stark, Jon Snow.

Yes, and someone instantly gave you a quote of Sam being manipulative for selfish reasons.

Sam's one of the nicer guys on the show for sure, but he's not a saint. He can be make errors just as anyone else. 
Him being angry at Daenerys after the news about his brother and father makes sense, but it doesn't necessarily mean that he's right.

Edited by MinscS2

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Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, MinscS2 said:

Of course he'd be interested in it, at least moderately, but again - why would she tell him?

He already know that she flew of to partake in a battle and that she killed a bunch of people, but he probably don't expect her to list up every man she killed and/or executed, and neither did she.

Point remains though that Daenerys had no idea about the connection between the Tarly's and Jon. 
Would she have been more inclined to show them mercy if she knew, or if she knew that Jon would strongly disapprove? 
Probably, but then we're back to square one again - she didn't know.

 

But its not listing every man she killed. Its the patriarch of a noble house not Johnny the baker conscripted. Its significant. Tarly was the only general to defeat Robert Baratheon, he had a reputation. Not even a passing comment about it. If she had killed Jaime would you have expected her to remain similarly tight lipped? Why would Jon care

Edited by AryaNymeriaVisenya

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1 minute ago, Kajjo said:

When he did that?! He just talked about having taken it.

Sorry I mean giving Jorah Heartsbane, lol. It's in the trailer, Jorah is wearing it and pulls it out in the preview for E2.

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1 minute ago, MinscS2 said:

Sam's one of the nicer guys on the show for sure, but he's not a saint. He can be make errors just as anyone else. 

Yes, not more and not less.

1 minute ago, MinscS2 said:

 Him being angry at Daenerys after the news about his brother and father makes sense, but it doesn't necessarily mean that he's right about Daenerys. 

Yes and yes. Yes, it is expected to show grief and sadness and to feel opposed to the Dany now. Yes, that doesn't make Daenerys a bad person in itself.

Where did Sam say something against Daenerys afterwards? He didn't! He behaves properly! Very good indeed. He just reminds Jon, that he surrendered the crown for the greater good and questions whether Daenerys would do the same. Sam questions this, he does not assert the opposite.

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Posted (edited)
3 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Sorry I mean giving Jorah Heartsbane, lol. It's in the trailer, Jorah is wearing it and pulls it out in the preview for E2.

Oh, thanks!  Missed that one.. my bad :)  I kind of thought you meant at Hardhome when Jorah refused it...

Edited by LadyNoOne
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3 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Sorry I mean giving Jorah Heartsbane, lol. It's in the trailer, Jorah is wearing it and pulls it out in the preview for E2.

I saw the trailer, but intentionally did not view the preview yet. 

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2 minutes ago, Kajjo said:

I saw the trailer, but intentionally did not view the preview yet. 

Oops, I'm sorry I didn't mean to spoil. But in the trailer we know he gets it somehow.

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