Samwell Tarly stole the spotlight.

[Krishtotter]

4 minutes ago, D-Shiznit said:

Not sure why this is such a hard concept to grasp for some.

Because, it is in the context of an-as-of-yet unconcluded civil war in which the ruling house, presently, is Lannister and therefore Cersei possesses the legal sovereignty of the Seven Kingdoms by right of sitting on the Iron Throne. 

It doesn't matter that Olenna has pledged allegiance to opposite side in this conflict - because Cersei is 'technically' correct that so long as she sits on that chair, Dany remains only a claimant and not a Queen, until she wrests the throne by right of conquest (just as Cersei did by blowing up the Sept). 

The Tarlys were quite justified in determining that their greater oath of fealty was to the Crown, not their liege lord that had joined the rebellion. It's a perfectly valid argument and no, they are not "traitors" - that word carries unsavoury insinuations.

[D-Shiznit]

Just now, OldGimletEye said:

In your view which takes precedence. The oath to the liege lord or crown?

Their Leige decides which crown they serve, if not then the Frey's and Boltons aren't traitors either as they sided with the Crown against their respective houses that they pledged to.

[OldGimletEye]

Just now, D-Shiznit said:

Their Leige decides which crown they serve, if not then the Frey's and Boltons aren't traitors either as they sided with the Crown against their respective houses that they pledged to.

Then by this logic Dickon was not a traitor I presume, since his liege was his father.

[Cas Stark]

7 minutes ago, El Guapo said:

Daenerys is the Queen recognized as such by House Tyrell. The Tarlys betrayed House Tyrell resulting in the death of their liege lord.  Yes they are traitors.

Maybe I misremembered the scene, is that why she killed them, for betraying House Tyrell? 

I thought she offered to spare them if they bent the knee...

[Krishtotter]

Just now, D-Shiznit said:

Their Leige decides which crown they serve, if not then the Frey's and Boltons aren't traitors either as they sided with the Crown against their respective houses that they pledged to.

That's right, being a "traitor" is entirely relative and subjective. 

It is an emotive, incendiary term used by autocrats to undermine meaningful dissension to their rule and hardly the mark of an enlightened mind. 

In a medievalesque world like GoT, everybody flings accusations of "treason" to justify murder.

[OldGimletEye]

Just now, Cas Stark said:

 I thought she offered to spare them if they bent the knee...

Calling them "traitors" just sound better, I suppose.

[D-Shiznit]

2 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

Then by this logic Dickon was not a traitor I presume, since his liege was his father.

Dickon is a member of House Tarly, they are pledged by Oath to House Tyrell. Again by that logic, Black Walder and his brother weren't traitors either as Walder Frey would be their liege.

[Krishtotter]

2 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

Calling them "traitors" just sound better, I suppose.

In a civil war, there are no "traitors" until one side wins and establishes a political sovereignty in the realm. 

When the American Civil War was ensuing, both sides accused the other of "treason" based upon differing understandings of state sovereignty and constitutional law. 

In the English Civil War, the Parliamentarians and the Royalists did the same. When Cromwell''s Parliamentarians won the war in 1651, those who had fought for the King became the "traitors" condemned to disenfranchisement and harsh penal laws. 

When the Royalists returned to power in 1661, the same treatment was meted out to "treasonous regicides" who under the old regime had been loyal Republicans.

[OldGimletEye]

Just now, D-Shiznit said:

Dickon is a member of House Tarly, they are pledge by Oath to House Tyrell. Again by that logic, Black Walder and his brother weren't traitors either as Walder Frey would be their liege.

Dickon is a member of House Tarly but not its head. So it would seem his immediate liege would be the head of House Tarly, his father.

I asked to rank how this should all work, to wit: Is loyalty owed to the immediate liege or to the crown? You gave your answer. With the answer you gave, then it would not appear, under that answer, that Dickon was not guilty of being a traitor. In short your logic seems a bit inconsistent.

[D-Shiznit]

3 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

Dickon is a member of House Tarly but not its head. So it would seem his immediate liege would be the head of House Tarly, his father.

I asked to rank how this should all work, to wit: Is loyalty owed to the immediate liege or to the crown? You gave your answer. With the answer you gave, then it would not appear, under that answer, that Dickon was not guilty of being a traitor. In short your logic seems a bit inconsistent.

Nope, every member of House Tarly is pledged to House Tyrell by oath, just like every member of House Frey was pledged to House Tully. If Dickon isn't a traitor, then Black Walder and all of the children of Walder Frey aren't either.

[SeanF]

6 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

In your view which takes precedence. The oath to the liege lord or crown?

It is at least, an arguable point, especially as "treason" has more than one meaning.

English law treated as "treason" the murder of a husband by his wife, or a master by his servant.   But, neither was "High Treason" which was the worst form of treason, ie rebellion against the King, or the Realm.  A wife who betrayed her husband, or a servant his master, if the latter were plotting rebellion against the King, would be considered a true and loyal subject to the King, not a traitor. 

So, in this context, is a man a traitor, who defies his overlord, to fight for the Crown against someone he views as a foreign invader?

[OldGimletEye]

Just now, D-Shiznit said:

Nope, every member of that house is edged to House Tarly by oath, just like every member of House Frey was pledged to House Tully. If Dickon isn't a traitor, then Black Walder and all of the children pho Walder Frey aren't either.

So if Dickon were to support House Tyrell over his father then Dickon is not a traitor. But, if Randyll were to support the crown over House Tyrell, then Randyll is a traitor.

Huh? Wut?

Does anyone understand this?

Bueller?

Bueller?

[D-Shiznit]

1 minute ago, OldGimletEye said:

So if Dickon were to support House Tyrell over his father then Dickon is not a traitor. But, if Randyll were to support the crown over House Tyrell, then Randyll is a traitor.

Let me make it simple for you, the same law/logic that made the members of House Frey traitors, also apply to House Tarly as well. If one house is a traitor, the other is as well, and vice versa.

[Krishtotter]

7 minutes ago, D-Shiznit said:

Nope, every member of House Tarly is pledged to House Tyrell by oath, just like every member of House Frey was pledged to House Tully. If Dickon isn't a traitor, then Black Walder and all of the children pho Walder Frey aren't either.

In the feudal system as I understand it, nobility - even the former royal houses - own their lands as a 'fee' from the Crown. It is not under their absolute ownership but rather held on loan from the benefaction of the Crown until it says otherwise.

Cersei declared the Tyrells to be 'rebels' allying themselves in violation of their fealty to the Crown to a "foreign"usurper. And she expressed her intention that the Tarlys replace the Tyrells as the new ruling house of the Reach. 

That was within the remit of her royal prerogative, since she currently sits on the throne.

If Daenerys were to win, then the legal position would shift accordingly. 

But she hasn't yet won because the civil war is still in process (albeit at a temporary, phoney ceasefire stage).

[SeanF]

Just now, D-Shiznit said:

Let me make it simple for you, the same law/logic that made the members of House Frey traitors, also apply to House Tarly as well. If one is a traitor, the other is as well, and vice versa.

Not exactly,  The Freys were oathbreakers, and violators of guest right.

Had they simply repudiated allegiance to House Tully at the beginning of the war, in order to fight for the Crown, then their actions would have been considered far more honourable.  That is what House Tarly did in this case.

[El Guapo]

14 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

Maybe I misremembered the scene, is that why she killed them, for betraying House Tyrell? 

I thought she offered to spare them if they bent the knee...

Daenerys is the recognized Queen in the Reach.  House Tyrell rules the Reach in her name. By rebelling against the Tyrells they are rebelling against the Queen.  This is not complicated. Yes after defeating them she offered to welcome back into the fold if they bent the knee. They made the wrong choice. Poor Tarlys.

[D-Shiznit]

2 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Not exactly,  The Freys were oathbreakers, and violators of guest right.

Had they simply repudiated allegiance to House Tully at the beginning of the war, in order to fight for the Crown, then their actions would have been considered far more honourable.  That is what House Tarly did in this case.

Both broke their oaths, both betrayed their liege, both paid the ultimate price.

[D-Shiznit]

Just now, El Guapo said:

Daenerys is the recognized Queen in the Reach.  House Tyrell rules the Reach in her name. By rebelling against the Tyrells they are rebelling against the Queen.  This is not complicated. Yes after defeating them she offered to welcome back into the fold if they bent the knee. They made the wrong choice. Poor Tarlys.

Yup, the liege decides which crown rules over the kingdom, not the lesser houses.

[Cas Stark]

Just now, El Guapo said:

Daenerys is the recognized Queen in the Reach.  House Tyrell rules the Reach in her name. By rebelling against the Tyrells they are rebelling against the Queen.  This is not complicated. Yes after defeating them she offered to welcome back into the fold if they bent the knee. They made the wrong choice. Poor Tarlys.

Really?  If I'm not mistaken Highgarden is now in the hands of the Lannisters, there is no more House Tyrell for anyone to be faithful to, and this was the case before she won the battle.  

[sweetsunray]

9 minutes ago, D-Shiznit said:

Let me make it simple for you, the same law/logic that made the members of House Frey traitors, also apply to House Tarly as well. If one house is a traitor, the other is as well, and vice versa.

House Frey weren't traitors. They had already left Robb's side of the war. He had to beg them to come back and apologize for his offences to them, despite the fact that the Twins was on the new North-Riverlands kingdom.

They're not evil for not standing with Robb, but for organising a wedding party to slaughter all their disarmed guests. The Freys aren't traitors. They're murderers, guest murderers.