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Samwell Tarly stole the spotlight.


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2 minutes ago, princess brittany said:

i thought the mad king burned both of them?

In the books, he had Brandon strapped with a choking device and a sword just out of reach to cut the bonds of his father, while his father was being roasted above wildfire.

Don't know what they say it was in the show.

Regardless of that, as Jaime tells it, Brandon knew he would die choking if he tried to save his father, but could not but try. So, Brandon basically committed suicide for his father.

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2 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

In the books, he had Brandon strapped with a choking device and a sword just out of reach to cut the bonds of his father, while his father was being roasted above wildfire.

Don't know what they say it was in the show.

Regardless of that, as Jaime tells it, Brandon knew he would die choking if he tried to save his father, but could not but try. So, Brandon basically committed suicide for his father.

very sad

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15 hours ago, Estelindis said:

I described something much worse than the bland, anemic-sounding "feel bad."  I described an intense guilt and regret for the rest of Dickon's life.  And I think that is missed by some people.  Maybe some people discussing this haven't suffered a close personal loss yet.  I think it's the sort of thing one can't actually understand - not really, deeply understand - until it happens in one's life.  An abstract version, sure, but not the searingly painful personal version. 

People who lose close loved ones to illnesses or accidents - matters entirely outside their control - feel terrible enough.  Imagine actually having a choice to stand to one side and disown that person or stay loyal to them and accept the same fate, and living with the memory of choosing to value one's own life higher than solidarity with the lost.  Even if one knows that the lost loved one wanted them to survive - Randall clearly did want Dickon to live (even if he took a small moment of comfort in being together with his son at the very end) - for many people it would still be a huge source of regret.  My point is that I believe Dickon was brave - I'd never call it a trivial sacrifice - but in a way he spared himself a lot of pain in the long term by giving up his life that day. 

The corollary to that is that if Dany did forbid Dickon from dying with Randall, not only would it have saved his life but it would've saved him some of the guilt.  Not the pain of losing his father, but the pain of living with the choice.  I think he would've been consumed by hatred for Daenerys instead of himself, and perhaps that would've been kinder to him. 

George actually illustrates this in Fire&Blood with Aegon III, who saw his mother Queen Rhaenyra being fed to the dragon of her rivaling half-brother Aegon II (the end of the civil war Dance of the Dragon). He was a child then and a prisoner of his half-uncle. When his half-uncle was assassinated, he became king, as Aegon II's own sons had been assassinated long before. Aegon III was called the "unlucky" for it, and always a brooding serious king who had little to no joy in his life. Only the return of his younger brother, believed to be lost and dead, for years, gave him some relief. Anyhow, Aegon III never recovered from seeing his parent cruelly executed.

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4 minutes ago, princess brittany said:

he sounds horrible. 

He was charming as a young man and a philanderer. Always made plans of building this and that for the betterment of the realm, but never actually putting them into action. Meanwhile Tywin, his childhood friend and Hand, could do much succesfully and Aerys grew envious and jealous of him, as well as Tywin's wife (he wanted her; she had been handmaiden to his sister-wife). At some point he made either advances of Tywin's wife or insulted her (don't remember), and Tywin went back to Casterly Rock though he remained the Hand. At Duskendale, a port near to King's Landing, a lord plotted against Aerys and took him hostage. Tywin wanted to attack with full force (likely trying to provoke the Darklyngs in killing Aerys II so Tywin could put his son Rhaegar on the throne), but young Selmy stealthily got inside and rescued Aerys II. After this Aerys's paranoia grew (not only towards Tywin, but towards Rhaegar as well). He wouldn't leave the red keep anymore, let his hair and nails grow. Still the Hand, Tywin sent Cersei to serve Aerys's wife in the hope that Rhaegar might grow to fancy Cersei. But then Aerys named Jaime to become KG (Tywin's heir), and Tywin quit and took Cersei back to CR.

Aerys's sister-wife had 2 stillborn children and 2 premature sons born after Rhaegar who died within the year they were born. For this Aerys first had the wetnurse beheaded, and then suspected someone else and tortured her and her whole family, after which he did penitence with the Speton and vowed to be faithful to his wife from thereon. But bedding his wife was in truth bestial rape. He would burn people alive and then excited go to Rhaella. This is actually how Dany was conceived, during Robert's Rebellion when a maester opposed his wildfire plot, and he burned his maester alive.

A vain, cruel, petty, paranoid man. And certainly Viserys was his father's son. Rhaegar was a brooding, romantic on the other hand.

In the books two people are being described as having an extreme fascination with fire: Aerys II and Cersei (she burns the Tower of the Hand during Tommen's wedding to Margaery, after Tyrion killed Tywin and fled Westeros and she is very much turned on). So, we can equate Cersei's level of madness to that of Aerys II.

Dany does not fit that profile, but she can be callously ruthless when angry, like several of her ancestors.

Don't fully remember how the lineage is in the show, but in the books Aerys II's parents were siblings too. So, both Dany's parents and her grandparents were siblings to one another. So, in that case the incestuous degree between aunt and nephew is really high, with Jon the sole heir with a healthy dose of non-Targ blood.

 

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15 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

He was charming as a young man and a philanderer. Always made plans of building this and that for the betterment of the realm, but never actually putting them into action. Meanwhile Tywin, his childhood friend and Hand, could do much succesfully and Aerys grew envious and jealous of him, as well as Tywin's wife (he wanted her; she had been handmaiden to his sister-wife). At some point he made either advances of Tywin's wife or insulted her (don't remember), and Tywin went back to Casterly Rock though he remained the Hand. At Duskendale, a port near to King's Landing, a lord plotted against Aerys and took him hostage. Tywin wanted to attack with full force (likely trying to provoke the Darklyngs in killing Aerys II so Tywin could put his son Rhaegar on the throne), but young Selmy stealthily got inside and rescued Aerys II. After this Aerys's paranoia grew (not only towards Tywin, but towards Rhaegar as well). He wouldn't leave the red keep anymore, let his hair and nails grow. Still the Hand, Tywin sent Cersei to serve Aerys's wife in the hope that Rhaegar might grow to fancy Cersei. But then Aerys named Jaime to become KG (Tywin's heir), and Tywin quit and took Cersei back to CR.

Aerys's sister-wife had 2 stillborn children and 2 premature sons born after Rhaegar who died within the year they were born. For this Aerys first had the wetnurse beheaded, and then suspected someone else and tortured her and her whole family, after which he did penitence with the Speton and vowed to be faithful to his wife from thereon. But bedding his wife was in truth bestial rape. He would burn people alive and then excited go to Rhaella. This is actually how Dany was conceived, during Robert's Rebellion when a maester opposed his wildfire plot, and he burned his maester alive.

A vain, cruel, petty, paranoid man. And certainly Viserys was his father's son. Rhaegar was a brooding, romantic on the other hand.

In the books two people are being described as having an extreme fascination with fire: Aerys II and Cersei (she burns the Tower of the Hand during Tommen's wedding to Margaery, after Tyrion killed Tywin and fled Westeros and she is very much turned on). So, we can equate Cersei's level of madness to that of Aerys II.

Dany does not fit that profile, but she can be callously ruthless when angry, like several of her ancestors.

Don't fully remember how the lineage is in the show, but in the books Aerys II's parents were siblings too. So, both Dany's parents and her grandparents were siblings to one another. So, in that case the incestuous degree between aunt and nephew is really high, with Jon the sole heir with a healthy dose of non-Targ blood.

 

When Aerys would go to Rhaella and rape her, Jaime wanted to intervene, thinking they were sworn to protect her, too. He was told, "Yes, but not from him [Aerys]".

That degree of inbreeding should result in physical deformities as well.

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Just now, Ice Queen said:

When Aerys would go to Rhaella and rape her, Jaime wanted to intervene, thinking they were sworn to protect her, too. He was told, "Yes, but not from him [Aerys]".

That degree of inbreeding should result in physical deformities as well.

yup. It's likely the cause of the stillbirths and premature sons that never made it for long. And possibly the main reason that Dany's Drogo was what it was (aside from some magic to bind with dragons, for it to have wings and scales)

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Just now, sweetsunray said:

yup. It's likely the cause of the stillbirths and premature sons that never made it for long. And possibly the main reason that Dany's Drogo was what it was (aside from some magic to bind with dragons, for it to have wings and scales)

That's probably exactly right. 

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1 hour ago, sweetsunray said:

Rickard had demanded a trial by combat, and Aerys granted him that, but chose fire for his champion.

That sounds like a horror movie. 

I know the Mad King was old and infertile then, but was there ever a point where he could have successfully combated a Stark? Did he have any of his grandson's swordsmanship?

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1 minute ago, darmody said:

That sounds like a horror movie. 

I know the Mad King was old and infertile then, but was there ever a point where he could have successfully combated a Stark? Did he have any of his grandson's swordsmanship?

None. And Jon's father wasn't a natural to it, like Jaime, but a perfectionist who trained hard at it. Ned Stark's brother was said to be real good with the sword. So, I guess Jon has the natural talent for it more from the Stark side. His brooding is Rhaegar's.

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4 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

None. And Jon's father wasn't a natural to it, like Jaime, but a perfectionist who trained hard at it. Ned Stark's brother was said to be real good with the sword. So, I guess Jon has the natural talent for it more from the Stark side. His brooding is Rhaegar's.

I always got the impression that Ned wasn't that great with a sword, but he did kill Arthur Dayne. Howland Reed stabbing him in the back never happened in the books, but in the show if he hadn't done that Ned would have died.

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5 minutes ago, Ice Queen said:

I always got the impression that Ned wasn't that great with a sword, but he did kill Arthur Dayne. Howland Reed stabbing him in the back never happened in the books, but in the show if he hadn't done that Ned would have died.

We don't know what HR did in the books exactly, we do know that Ned thinks it was crucial. It was probably something similar. What is different to the show is that Ned never ever bragged about him defeating Arthur Dayne. Other people claim it of him, because they know HR wasn't a swordsman and so not possibly could have dueled against those KG. And when Bran mentions his father defeating Arthur Dayne to Ned, Ned corrects him and refers to HR's importance. So, Ned is actually modest about it.

Of course Ned is not Jon's father. Lyanna was Jon's mother, and she was actually good at it, per Bran's vision of her sparring with Benjen in the godswood and her beating several squires with a swords when they harrass Howland Reed at the tourney of Harrenhal where Rhaegar and her first met.

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45 minutes ago, Ice Queen said:

When Aerys would go to Rhaella and rape her, Jaime wanted to intervene, thinking they were sworn to protect her, too. He was told, "Yes, but not from him [Aerys]".

That degree of inbreeding should result in physical deformities as well.

jamie wanted to intervene? 

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