Samwell Tarly stole the spotlight.

[sweetsunray]

53 minutes ago, divica said:

Ok. I think that jon will obviously want to talk with her about burning the tarlys but as jon said a king/queen has to kill people sometimes. And while danny could have handled the situation better it isn t a hideus act. She has a perfect justification for what she did. I don t think this is a deal breaker for jonerys…

Another interesting thing that the show might want to explore is that jon burned his hand and understands the pain of being burned while danny has no idea. So I hope someone talks about that not everyone that deserves to die should be burned alive. There are much better methods…

And I think you are right. Someone must talk to danny about how westerosi feel about burning people. However I don t understand how jon and davos might like danny but turn agains her because of the burnings. They know she used her dragons to burn an army… And burning criminals is diferent from burning children...

In regards to danny, sam and jon relationships. I think it will be pretty awkward. Sam knows that danny killing his relatives was justified even if she could have spared at least his brother. On the other hand he doesn t know they were burned alive… And jon must be acting diferently towards danny in the next ep and she probably will think it is because of sam. I have no idea what kind of conversation they will have...

But overall my point is. Given all that jon know about danny I don t think it makes sense for him to turn against her because she burns bad people. I think it will need to be more than that… He will have to know that westeros won t accept danny. That the only person all the kingdoms might accept is Aegon targaryen… I don t think his feelings about danny should change in 2 eps (they will only deal with human enemies from ep 4 forward). 

It was portrayed as a hideous act, and Sam does not agree that Dany's execution of his relatives was justified at all. Watch Sam's face once he gets out, just before he meets Bran. He's angry, not just sad, very angry (for Sam). He reminds Jon of how he spared thousands of wildlings though they did not want to kneel.

We obviously disagree with her justification: her justification was you have to accept me as your queen or you'll die.

I think it will be a dealbreaker, soon for Davos once he learns and more slowly for Jon. Davos has seen what this quest for the throne did to Stannis, the man he idolized, and how it led him to burn his own daughter. Yes, once he found out he blamed Mel foremostly, but he has been exposed long enough to Jon to know the difference, between someone doing good with the aim to be king in a machiavellan way or someone who does the right thing no matter what. He believed Dany is the latter, because of Missandei's speech to him and because she saved his king stuck north of the wall. He doesn't know that she burned two prisoners though because they refused to kneel.

As for Jon, on the one hand he has to come to terms with the massive gamechanging info he received, about what it means on who he is, his identity, and how he feels about an incestuous sexual relationship. Cousins perhaps, but the sister of his father? He was disgusted by Craster, and every other wildling finds it disgusting too. He just has to look at Sansa (slightly younger than Dany) and imagine whether he could do that. You can see him trying to put some distance between himself and Dany, just to process it all. Meanwhile Sam's question is stuck into his mind like a seed to grow and grow. Even if he rationalizes Dany's actions, events will play out that will make him watch her closely. Jaime's trial for example. If you've seen the preview sneek peek, she says something like "as children my brother and I imagined all sorts of things we would do once ..." Even if she pardons Jaime for murdering her father, those words will make Sam's seed grow.

I can see Jon ask her about what happened to make her execute the Tarlys. She'll give some explanation, and it will make brooding Jon only brood more. At which point she'll try to make it all better with Sam, handwave it,  who'll just see it as a bribe.

And she better not make any more veiled threats towards Sansa.

And then the army of the dead arrives and will put the politics on hold. But Sam's seed will grow and grow imo. And they'll have to deal with Cersei at some point. More stuff where Dany can show this callous streak. Or if she discovers Varys switching sides behind her back. At the very least, even if Jon were to marry Dany IF she is with child, in the end I see him do it out of duty, but not for love.

[sweetsunray]

44 minutes ago, SeanF said:

I remember one poster describing Dany as "a vicious teenager". As far as the books go, that's unfair.  She has a cruel and vindictive streak, but also a kind heart.  If that seems contradictory, that's human nature.  She does try to forgive people if she can.  She gave her brother endless chances, forgave Ser Barristan   his deception, wanted to forgive Ser Jorah's treason and still forbade Daario to kill him, and refused to harm child hostages.

Dany in the series is quite a different person.   Proud, selfish, ruthless, and expecting people to bend the knee or burn.

 

I agree. Dany's not vicious imo. But she is callous, including book Dany.

[sweetsunray]

10 minutes ago, Estelindis said:

I agree with this.  Dickon's not the only one to be filmed this way in the face of Dany's threats of burning.  Hizdahr was presented this way when one of the other masters was burned in front of him (even if he did confess fear later).  Yet Hizdahr's character was thrown aside as soon as the writers had no further use for him, with no one speaking a word of regret for his fate (or even glancing back as he died).  Dickon is at least a step up from this, seeing as his death comes up in a later episode. 

Some people have characterized Dickon's action here as foolish, but I wonder if any of these people have asked themselves how they'd handle the guilt if they stood to one side while a loved one was painfully killed.  Dickon would've saved his life by kneeling, but would he have been able to live with himself afterwards?

Good question.

[DisneyDoc2425]

1 hour ago, princess brittany said:

i agree with you. she has shown no remorse for killing sams father and brother and the why that she told was pretty cold. which ones did you think were inappropriate? 

I hope you don't mind but I think I need to take a pass regarding your request. I don't want to start any new "debates" regarding other of Dany's "killing" behavior episodes, considering the craziness we are seeing with just this Tarley incident. I will say they are related to incidents in Seasons 4 and 5 and I also have some concerns about certain aspects of the Tarley incident. I don't think we are going to have to wait long to see in which direction Dany is headed. IMHO it should be pretty clear by the end of E2. 

[starklover]

4 minutes ago, DisneyDoc2425 said:

I hope you don't mind but I think I need to take a pass regarding your request. I don't want to start any new "debates" regarding other of Dany's "killing" behavior episodes, considering the craziness we are seeing with just this Tarley incident. I will say they are related to incidents in Seasons 4 and 5 and I also have some concerns about certain aspects of the Tarley incident. I don't think we are going to have to wait long to see in which direction Dany is headed. IMHO it should be pretty clear by the end of E2. 

yeah people are getting very heated up. 

[OldGimletEye]

9 hours ago, Estelindis said:

Some people have characterized Dickon's action here as foolish, but I wonder if any of these people have asked themselves how they'd handle the guilt if they stood to one side while a loved one was painfully killed.  Dickon would've saved his life by kneeling, but would he have been able to live with himself afterwards?

Well of course Dickon would feel bad. Yeah, so nobody misses that point. But, it doesn't follow that Dany should have let him go through with it, right away. His own father did not want him to die.  Randyll seemingly had his reasons for wanting to go through with getting executed. But whatever those reasons were, he didn't seem to think they applied to Dickon. So yeah, I think clapping Dickon in chains and confining him would have been appropriate and better.

[Error-504]

3 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

It was portrayed as a hideous act, and Sam does not agree that Dany's execution of his relatives was justified at all. Watch Sam's face once he gets out, just before he meets Bran. He's angry, not just sad, very angry (for Sam). He reminds Jon of how he spared thousands of wildlings though they did not want to kneel.

We obviously disagree with her justification: her justification was you have to accept me as your queen or you'll die.

I think it will be a dealbreaker, soon for Davos once he learns and more slowly for Jon. Davos has seen what this quest for the throne did to Stannis, the man he idolized, and how it led him to burn his own daughter. Yes, once he found out he blamed Mel foremostly, but he has been exposed long enough to Jon to know the difference, between someone doing good with the aim to be king in a machiavellan way or someone who does the right thing no matter what. He believed Dany is the latter, because of Missandei's speech to him and because she saved his king stuck north of the wall. He doesn't know that she burned two prisoners though because they refused to kneel.

As for Jon, on the one hand he has to come to terms with the massive gamechanging info he received, about what it means on who he is, his identity, and how he feels about an incestuous sexual relationship. Cousins perhaps, but the sister of his father? He was disgusted by Craster, and every other wildling finds it disgusting too. He just has to look at Sansa (slightly younger than Dany) and imagine whether he could do that. You can see him trying to put some distance between himself and Dany, just to process it all. Meanwhile Sam's question is stuck into his mind like a seed to grow and grow. Even if he rationalizes Dany's actions, events will play out that will make him watch her closely. Jaime's trial for example. If you've seen the preview sneek peek, she says something like "as children my brother and I imagined all sorts of things we would do once ..." Even if she pardons Jaime for murdering her father, those words will make Sam's seed grow.

I can see Jon ask her about what happened to make her execute the Tarlys. She'll give some explanation, and it will make brooding Jon only brood more. At which point she'll try to make it all better with Sam, handwave it,  who'll just see it as a bribe.

And she better not make any more veiled threats towards Sansa.

And then the army of the dead arrives and will put the politics on hold. But Sam's seed will grow and grow imo. And they'll have to deal with Cersei at some point. More stuff where Dany can show this callous streak. Or if she discovers Varys switching sides behind her back. At the very least, even if Jon were to marry Dany IF she is with child, in the end I see him do it out of duty, but not for love.

here we go again.............

 

Why would it be a deal breaker for Davos? He still sided with Stannis after multiple burnings of innocents (and the Tarleys were not innocent). It was only after Shireen that he made a stand. 

[MinscS2]

Randall could've saved Dickons life as well by either kneeling or accepting to take the black.
Dickons death was caused by a unfortunate combination of Randall's pride, Dickons foolishness and Daenerys callousness. 

Take either of these three out of the equation and Dickon would've lived.
Honestly, his death feels more and more like a plot-device. It doesn't really make sense if you think too much about it.
Even if Dickon loved his father, he still had his mother, sister and brother (and lands) to live for. 

And yeah, I don't see how this will be a "dealbreaker" for Davos. He serves Jon, not Daenerys, and even still, he's seen Stannis do way *way* worse stuff (not counting Shireen though) and he still stood by his side.

[Estelindis]

6 hours ago, OldGimletEye said:

Well of course Dickon would feel bad. Yeah, so nobody misses that point. But, it doesn't follow that Dany should have let him go through with it, right away. His own father did want him to die.  Randyll seeming had his reasons for wanting to go through with getting executing. But whatever those reasons were he didn't seem to think they applied to Dickon. So yeah, I think clapping Dickon in chains and confining him would have been appropriate and better. 

I described something much worse than the bland, anemic-sounding "feel bad."  I described an intense guilt and regret for the rest of Dickon's life.  And I think that is missed by some people.  Maybe some people discussing this haven't suffered a close personal loss yet.  I think it's the sort of thing one can't actually understand - not really, deeply understand - until it happens in one's life.  An abstract version, sure, but not the searingly painful personal version. 

People who lose close loved ones to illnesses or accidents - matters entirely outside their control - feel terrible enough.  Imagine actually having a choice to stand to one side and disown that person or stay loyal to them and accept the same fate, and living with the memory of choosing to value one's own life higher than solidarity with the lost.  Even if one knows that the lost loved one wanted them to survive - Randall clearly did want Dickon to live (even if he took a small moment of comfort in being together with his son at the very end) - for many people it would still be a huge source of regret.  My point is that I believe Dickon was brave - I'd never call it a trivial sacrifice - but in a way he spared himself a lot of pain in the long term by giving up his life that day. 

The corollary to that is that if Dany did forbid Dickon from dying with Randall, not only would it have saved his life but it would've saved him some of the guilt.  Not the pain of losing his father, but the pain of living with the choice.  I think he would've been consumed by hatred for Daenerys instead of himself, and perhaps that would've been kinder to him. 

[Coffeewiththegods]

9 hours ago, Estelindis said:

I agree with this.  Dickon's not the only one to be filmed this way in the face of Dany's threats of burning.  Hizdahr was presented this way when one of the other masters was burned in front of him (even if he did confess fear later).  Yet Hizdahr's character was thrown aside as soon as the writers had no further use for him, with no one speaking a word of regret for his fate (or even glancing back as he died).  Dickon is at least a step up from this, seeing as his death comes up in a later episode. 

Some people have characterized Dickon's action here as foolish, but I wonder if any of these people have asked themselves how they'd handle the guilt if they stood to one side while a loved one was painfully killed.  Dickon would've saved his life by kneeling, but would he have been able to live with himself afterwards?

I agree with some of these points but, on the other hand Dickon is also leaving his mother and little sister alone in his actions...i May be looking too much into the matter though.

[Rose of Red Lake]

I'm dying to see the Samwell scenes in E2. I'm curious to see how he works to undermine Dany while still allowing Jon to use her armies/dragons. Every thought Sam has now about Jon now is treasonous which would be hilarious if we were reading his POV, because he gets paranoid sometimes lol

[sweetsunray]

1 hour ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

I'm dying to see the Samwell scenes in E2. I'm curious to see how he works to undermine Dany while still allowing Jon to use her armies/dragons. Every thought Sam has now about Jon now is treasonous which would be hilarious if we were reading his POV, because he gets paranoid sometimes lol

I've seen pics of Sam with Gilly and little Sam in bed... guess that's how we'll know his thoughts

[SeanF]

2 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

I'm dying to see the Samwell scenes in E2. I'm curious to see how he works to undermine Dany while still allowing Jon to use her armies/dragons. Every thought Sam has now about Jon now is treasonous which would be hilarious if we were reading his POV, because he gets paranoid sometimes lol

It would be a pity if Dany or Jon ended up executing Sam for treason.

[sweetsunray]

6 minutes ago, SeanF said:

It would be a pity if Dany or Jon ended up executing Sam for treason.

Not going to happen imo. He's going to do his aSoS trickery imo.

[Rose of Red Lake]

1 hour ago, SeanF said:

It would be a pity if Dany or Jon ended up executing Sam for treason.

well with a plotline like this someone is getting betrayed so...place your bets now

[darmody]

22 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Cousins perhaps, but the sister of his father? He was disgusted by Craster, and every other wildling finds it disgusting too. 

Craster created a nightmare scenario for himself, unlike anything I've witnessed outside the generations of hamsters I once kept in captivity. 

This show is used to incest. But to put Danny/Jon's auntie/nephew relationship into context, it's more like half-siblings doin' it than first cousins. Imagine Jon as Ned's actual bastard hooking up with Arya. Yuck. 

It's not quite as bad as that, considering they grew up in different continents and haven't heretofore recognized shared characteristics. Aside from Jon's affinity with dragons. 

On the other hand, it's worse because Targaryens interbred for generations. Jon's daddy and Danny would have been husband and wife had she been born earlier. 

[Ice Queen]

1 minute ago, darmody said:

Craster created a nightmare scenario for himself, unlike anything I've witnessed outside the generations of hamsters I once kept in captivity. 

This show is used to incest. But to put Danny/Jon's auntie/nephew relationship into context, it's more like half-siblings doin' it than first cousins. Imagine Jon as Ned's actual bastard hooking up with Arya. Yuck. 

It's not quite as bad as that, considering they grew up in different continents and haven't heretofore recognized shared characteristics. Aside from Jon's affinity with dragons. 

On the other hand, it's worse because Targaryens interbred for generations. Jon's daddy and Danny would have been husband and wife had she been born earlier. 

As an aside, in Martin's outline for the series, Arya and Jon DID have that kind of relationship. 

[darmody]

18 hours ago, MinscS2 said:

Take either of these three out of the equation and Dickon would've lived.
Honestly, his death feels more and more like a plot-device. It doesn't really make sense if you think too much about it.

A dramatic device as well as a plot device. One can't help but see the parallels between the Tarlys here and the way Ned's father and brother were killed by Danny's daddy. 

I see Dickon's motivation. Middle child to a tyrant father who literally threatened to kill his elder brother for weakness. He wanted to live up to the position to which daddy raised him.

Plus, there's the heat of the moment thing. How foolish was Jaime to charge at Danny and the dragon? But we know why he did it. Among other reasons, because despite being one of the Great Men of his time (all the wealth, charm, looks and killing ability you could want), the only act he's known for is stabbing an old man in the back. Dickon doesn't want to be known for inheriting his title because he kneeled while his father burned. 

[SeanF]

12 minutes ago, darmody said:

Craster created a nightmare scenario for himself, unlike anything I've witnessed outside the generations of hamsters I once kept in captivity. 

This show is used to incest. But to put Danny/Jon's auntie/nephew relationship into context, it's more like half-siblings doin' it than first cousins. Imagine Jon as Ned's actual bastard hooking up with Arya. Yuck. 

It's not quite as bad as that, considering they grew up in different continents and haven't heretofore recognized shared characteristics. Aside from Jon's affinity with dragons. 

On the other hand, it's worse because Targaryens interbred for generations. Jon's daddy and Danny would have been husband and wife had she been born earlier. 

I doubt if Dany would find incest objectionable in any way.  Jon has been brought up to view it as unnatural, but he and Dany met as strangers, and he has strong feelings for her, so it's probably not a deal-breaker.

i think it's Dany's character and behaviour that has more potential to alienate him.

[sweetsunray]

32 minutes ago, darmody said:

A dramatic device as well as a plot device. One can't help but see the parallels between the Tarlys here and the way Ned's father and brother were killed by Danny's daddy. 

I see Dickon's motivation. Middle child to a tyrant father who literally threatened to kill his elder brother for weakness. He wanted to live up to the position to which daddy raised him.

Plus, there's the heat of the moment thing. How foolish was Jaime to charge at Danny and the dragon? But we know why he did it. Among other reasons, because despite being one of the Great Men of his time (all the wealth, charm, looks and killing ability you could want), the only act he's known for is stabbing an old man in the back. Dickon doesn't want to be known for inheriting his title because he kneeled while his father burned. 

Brandon choked himself to death to try and rescue his father being cooked. Yeah, it is very reminiscint.