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Samwell Tarly stole the spotlight.

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2 minutes ago, Ice Queen said:

"I'm waiting for an old friend."

That's all. 

He might have seen a lot of past events like "Jamie departing King's Landing" or "Jamie on King's road".

If he exactly knew when Jamie would arrive, he wouldn't have to wait for hours and hours.

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Just now, Kajjo said:

He might have seen a lot of past events like "Jamie departing King's Landing" or "Jamie on King's road".

If he exactly knew when Jamie would arrive, he wouldn't have to wait for hours and hours.

Well knowing everything makes life pretty boring and I'm guessing without Hodor he has problems rolling himself up the stairs, so might as well sit out there in the mud and give people chills with his stare, the old gods know that's his only entertainment now. 

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1 minute ago, Kajjo said:

True. I wrote this already a lot of times here:

Jon Snow. His is the Song of Ice and Fire.

I am not so sure, but of course very much points into that direction. However, all this talk about "waking dragons from stone" and "prince is a gender-neutral term" makes me wonder, what role Daenerys really has. 

Here's the way I see it. Humans are just as much a threat to the dragons as they are the White Walkers per the Citadel--as discussed in another thread (I think, I'm having a hard time keeping them straight). The idea is to do away with magic altogether. That includes the dragons. In this scenario, the dragons (read: Dany) and the White Walkers would tag team the humans to wipe them out. (This also follows the Norse myth of Ragnarok, where the forces of ice and the forces of fire band together to wipe out mankind and the gods.)

That is the danger Dany poses. She could very well turn her dragons loose on the very people she is now promising to protect. She's also plunging Westeros back into chaos. Right now Jon is focused on the upcoming battle--he is not seeing the big picture here. 

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Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, Kajjo said:

He might have seen a lot of past events like "Jamie departing King's Landing" or "Jamie on King's road".

If he exactly knew when Jamie would arrive, he wouldn't have to wait for hours and hours.

That is seriously splitting hairs. If he saw Jaime leaving KL, how would Bran have known he was coming to Winterfell? And "might have"? Got any textual or show evidence for that?

He knew Jaime was coming and approximately when. To expect him to nail it down to the millisecond is disingenuous. 

Edited by Ice Queen

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24 minutes ago, Ice Queen said:

any textual or show evidence for tha

Have got any that Bran sees the future?!

We have NO evidence at all. Whatever Bran did so far is explainable with what the show presented us: Bran can see past events.

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3 minutes ago, Kajjo said:

Have got any that Bran sees the future?!

We have NO evidence at all. Whatever Bran did so far is explainable with what the show presented us: Bran can see past events.

I just gave you one. Bran knew he was coming and was waiting for him. Slice and dice it however you want, but claiming without evidence that he saw Jaime leave KL doesn't disprove anything.

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2 minutes ago, Ice Queen said:

I just gave you one. Bran knew he was coming and was waiting for him. Slice and dice it however you want, but claiming without evidence that he saw Jaime leave KL doesn't disprove anything.

Don't forget that Bran can see present events in distant places too, that's actually how it all started. 

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2 minutes ago, Ice Queen said:

Bran knew he was coming and was waiting for him.

Honestly, knowing that someone will come is not at all evidence to be able see the future but can easily be explained with seeing him somewhere on his way to King's Landing. 

3 minutes ago, Ice Queen said:

claiming without evidence that he saw Jaime leave KL

It was an example. Please keep fair. Don't twist words. 

We know for sure that Bran can see past events.

We have not been shown that Bran can see future events.

Your example is not conclusive of that.

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3 minutes ago, Ice Queen said:

I just gave you one. Bran knew he was coming and was waiting for him. Slice and dice it however you want, but claiming without evidence that he saw Jaime leave KL doesn't disprove anything.

I don't want to partake in this because I don't think it matters a lot, but if he saw him leaving KL then he also saw the debate between Cersei and Jamie - which also implies Bran absolutely knew that Jamie heads to Winterfell.

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About Samwell: honestly the actor truly nailed the scene, BUT I haven't felt emotionally impacted too much because we haven't seen Sams love expressed towards his brother Dickon. Maybe there was a scene where he talked about him with warm words or something like that but for all I remember Sam shouldn't have given much shit about Dickon's death. It took out the momentum from my empathic reactions throughout the scene.

About Dany and the Tarly execution: I agree that Dany is going down a grim path towards extreme tyranny. I wouldn't be surprised if she would die by the end of the show, possibly by the hands of Jon. They are going to have some serious debates soon, Jon is more like the ideal justful leader, they handle tough situations based on different principles. I think Dany may engage in violence with Jon, and he maybe Jon will forge Lighbringer and become Azor Ahai by plunging his sword into Dany's heart. I can think of some situations which could also fulfill the prophecy from the House of the Undying but of course that was left out of the show. 

I would be surprised if both Dany and Jon would survive the ending. 

 

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Wow there is a lot of Dany haters in here. She’s not my favorite but I have literally no idea where all of you are getting that she’s is bound to go mad queen or that she’s a sociopath , I think you’re thinking of the existing mad queen Cersei. Yes Dany crucified the slavers but was mildly compassionate when that nobleman she was going to marry asked if they could take them down and be buried. She didn’t immediately burn/kill Jon Snow when he didn’t bend the knee. She hasn’t been flying over the countryside burning villages and innocents (burning innocents like Cersei did all cause they wanted to put her on trial for crimes she did in fact commit). Let’s see also she didn’t just kill everyone at the truce in the dragon pit which would have been a good plan for a tyrannical  sociopath . She’s stopped her invasion to help the good of the many. She’s always tried to minimize civilian casualties when invading/fighting. She has on numerous occasions shown concern for Tyrion’s feelings and certainly jorahs. It’s obvious she’s going to forgive Jamie for killing her father or at least let it go and while she threatened Varys a bit she took him on as an adviser someone who literally tried to have her killed. Oh and she doesn’t take the sick level pleasure in torture  that mad queen Cersei does .

With the tarlys she defeated them on the battlefield after they betrayed the tyrells to side with the actual mad queen Cersei, she gave them the option to stay alive and keep their titles or die (bend the knee or die also something the lannisters have done and said ) . Randall had no real good reason to choose death over Dany other than stubbornness (his loyalty to Cersei was stronger than his will to live apparently), Tyrion mentioned at the time about him taking the black and he declared he wouldn’t and again chose death and she hadn’t even looked at his son and Randall told his son to stay alive (ie his son would have to bend the knee to do so him not bending knee makes no sense there ) and freaking Dickon basically volunteered or rather insisted on dying too. I remember Dany kind of being surprised and like “oh um ok if you’re sure”. 

 

So where is this evidence of mad queen tyrannical Dany- she may not be a great ruler but she’s definitely not the worst in series, not by a lot (stannis burning his own daughter alive , Tywin trying to kill his son Tyrion amongst other things, Joffrey Ramsay and of course Cersei) 

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Posted (edited)
25 minutes ago, Kajjo said:

Honestly, knowing that someone will come is not at all evidence to be able see the future but can easily be explained with seeing him somewhere on his way to King's Landing. 

It was an example. Please keep fair. Don't twist words. 

We know for sure that Bran can see past events.

We have not been shown that Bran can see future events.

Your example is not conclusive of that.

Read the books? Greenseers have the greensight, even Jojen who isn't a particularly powerful greenseer like Bran. Meera makes a point of saying that he has prophetic dreams that don't always come true, but sometimes they do. Remember the "dish best served cold" from A Storm of Swords? Jojen also foresaw the sack of Winterfell by Theon. 

The greatest greenseers were also wargs, and Bran is the most powerful greenseer. Someone makes a comparison in the books as to just how powerful he is. I'll try to find it. 

Bran probably cannot control it yet. As in every science fiction and fantasy story, the student's teaching is interrupted by the death of the master teacher, and he has to figure it out on his own. 

Way back in the first book (and the first season of the show) he and Rickon both dreamed of Ned's death before it happened. He can see the entire lifespan of the weirwoods, from acorn to death. In Season 6, he sees wildfire exploding in a tunnel--a reference to the Sept of Baelor or just possibly dragonfire in the tunnels beneath KL. Either way, as of when he had the vision, it hadn't happened yet. 

Edited by Ice Queen

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23 minutes ago, Bambi said:

I don't want to partake in this because I don't think it matters a lot, but if he saw him leaving KL then he also saw the debate between Cersei and Jamie - which also implies Bran absolutely knew that Jamie heads to Winterfell.

Not necessarily. That wasn't the last scene with them. There is one of Jaime riding out alone. 

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6 minutes ago, Ice Queen said:

both dreamed

Dreams yes, but no future greenseeing by Bran yet. That's a difference.

Other greenseers might see the future (Jojen, Howland) but Bran has not shown that ability yet. 

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2 minutes ago, Kajjo said:

Dreams yes, but no future greenseeing by Bran yet. That's a difference.

Other greenseers might see the future (Jojen, Howland) but Bran has not shown that ability yet. 

Okay, fine, you believe that if you want. I notice how you ignore his vision of the wildfire under KL, though. That's a clear vision of the future. 

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1 minute ago, Ice Queen said:

you believe that if you want

I am always open to evidence. We have none in the show so far. Otherwise Bran could have helped a lot.

You claim Bran knows who will die and survive and everything? Really?

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Posted (edited)
40 minutes ago, nymeria_2321 said:

Randall told his son to stay alive (ie his son would have to bend the knee to do so him not bending knee makes no sense there ) and freaking Dickon basically volunteered or rather insisted on dying too. I remember Dany kind of being surprised and like “oh um ok if you’re sure”. 

For this reason, I think the execution of Dickon was particularly a mistake. Even Randyll did not want Dickon to die for Cersei. So, in my opinion, Dickon should have been clapped in chains and sent to confinement to let him re-think matters, rather than allowing to fulfill his death wish, which was seemingly not well considered, and even his father opposed.

His decision to die, strikes me as the type of rash decision, that young people are sometimes prone to make. I don't think his immediate execution was necessary.

Edited by OldGimletEye

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I thought it was interesting that actor who plays Sam calls Dany psychopathic.

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12 hours ago, Krishtotter said:

Emilia is not a great actor but she can do 'tears' pretty well, as evidenced by her scene with Kit last season on the boat after her dragons had died. She was deliberately 'acting' in a cavalier, unfeeling way.

In Episode 1, Season 1 we were introduced to a smarmy, backstabbing Jaime Lannister who pushes a boy out of a tower window to cover up his incestuous relations with his sister. At that point, a thoroughly unlikeable villain. And, we were introduced at the same time to a beautiful young woman, Daenerys, at the mercy of her abusive brother and married off to a Dothraki warlord. An unabashed heroine to root for if there ever was one, a real "fantasy" princess. 

But in the intervening seasons, Jaime has grown as a character and his complex motives have become apparent. He has shown signs of contrition and moral progress. 

By contrast, ever since she crucified the slave-masters of Meeren, the morally idealistic "slave-liberating" Daenerys has begun to exhibit some deeply worrisome traits - supreme arrogance, a willingness to respond callously to anyone who disobeys her trust and a lack of emotion, for instance when she watched her brother Viserys (admittedly a total jerk, but still her brother) die by having his face burned off with melted gold in season 1, episode 6 or when she dismissed her longstanding lover Daario with the remark, "I felt nothing for him, just impatient to get on with it". 

This descent into Robespierre-style idealistic tyranny, reached a nadir last season when Dany burned the Tarlys - a father and son - to death, without first giving them a trial or attempting to remonstrate with by means of reason and discussion. She also threatened to burn Varys alive. And yet, Dany has still exhibited selflessness - for instance by finally allying herself with Jon's cause and making 'peace' with the machiavellian Cersei to fight the Night King, thus putting her lifelong ambitions for the throne on hold for the greater good of the people she intends to rule. 

And yet, the moral regression - of a kind - is still unmissable. 

By contrast, Jaime has rescued Brienne and evidenced genuine ethical qualities as the show has gone on. He is becoming more and more honourable with every season. 

In the first episode of season 8, this 'trend' for both characters was solidified. 

Dany was completely lacking in remorse or a shred of apparent empathy when she informed her lover Jon Snow's best friend, Samwell, that she had burned his father and brother to death. The manner in which she flipped, suddenly, from "nice" friendly Dany - talking about rewarding Sam for saving Jorah's life - into a look of cold, expressionless absence of feeling, actually chilled me to the bone. 

It was one of the most disturbing scenes I've ever yet watched, made worse by Sam's evident emotional distress.

Then, at the very end of the episode we come full-circle: just as season 1, episode 1 ended with "evil" Jaime chucking Bran out of a window, this episode ends with "contrite" Jaime looking at his former victim, now full-grown and disabled, with clear remorse for his sins. 

The contrast with Dany was stark. 

Is Jon Snow in love with a tyrannical sociopath-in-the-making, a person of originally pure motives and ideals who has lost her way? 

I am reminded of Graham Greene books The Quiet American and The Power and the Glory.

The former is set during the Vietnam war and the eponymous namesake of the story is an idealistic young American soldier, Alden Pyle, who is very much on the side of ‘democracy’, purporting to support increased freedom and human rights for the Vietnamese people and he rabidly opposes what he sees as the colonialism of the French and the soul-destroying Communism of the Vietminh suggesting that an American ‘Third Force’ is needed.

As the novel develops it becomes ever more apparent that ‘hero’ Pyle is not as heroic and charming as he started out, and our perception of him changes. Like the Americans he represents, Pyle’s obsession with democracy turns out to be an end in itself rather than a means to an end. The idea of freedom, to both Pyle and his country, becomes more important than guaranteeing freedom for the people themselves.

In reference to a bomb which he himself personally set off in a crowded high street Pyle says: “… They were only war casualties…It was a pity… They died in the right cause…They died for democracy …” The word ‘only’ is pivotal. Pyle denigrates the Vietnamese people, innocents whom he murdered senselessly, as mere casualties of war, human fodder whose deaths are regrettable but wholly justified in the cause of democracy. He does not consider the fact that one of the women he killed could have been his mother, that a child he killed could have been his son, as Fowler, another character, explains to him: “… Would you have said the same if it had been your old nurse with the blueberry pie?..He ignored my facile point …” To Pyle, the idea of a free and democratic Vietnam is far more important than the human beings who are intended to enjoy this future of liberation, as is evidenced by the words, “they died for democracy”. Fowler on the other hand sees the brutal reality and ignorance of such an imperialist disregard for basic human rights. He understands the truth that people can never be viewed as subordinate to ideas. Fowler captures this dilemma when he states: “… How many dead colonels justify a child’s or a trishaw driver’s death when you are building a national democratic front? …”

There is something of the horribly flawed idealist in Daenerys, like Alden Pyle, as she becomes more and more debased by her overwhelming lust for power - her single-minded conviction that she alone is the panacea for Westeros' woes, the great wheel-breaker who will set all aright and create a world of happiness. But is she losing sight entirely of the welfare of the subjects she’d originally sought to succour? She appears to have become obsessed with her own will and that one idea of ordering everything according to it.

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Great posts. thanks for the one about Robespierre too!

There aren't many plot points that are picked up again in a later season in the show. When they do have a ripple effect into another season, they are indeed important for the arc of that person. Both Tarlies could have easily died during the battle itself if their sole purpose was to die and make Sam the new lord of House Tarly.  Instead, they survived the battle and surrendered. Her first words to these surrendered captives is that she will be more just. And she expects them to believe her on her word. But her very first act on Westerosi soil is to execute father and son after the father gave quite valid reasons not to bend the knee in the ears of anyone who does not know Dany personally.

We have defended or turned a somwhat blind eye to Dany's callous way of dealing justice since the very beginning. For many MMD deserved to be burned alive because she failed to revive Drogo and her son was born monstrous. But the sole evidenced crime of MMD against Dany are her callous words and rejoicing in what had become of Drogo (the man who raped, murdered and pillaged her village) and that his son would never live to grow up to do the same. Was she mean? Yeah. Had she cause to be mean? Yeah. Did she purposefully make Drogo a failed resurrection? Did she purposefully turn Dany's unborn son into a half lizzard? Very very doubtful. Saying mean things is not a crime worth executing someone over. But we say "well, ok, it gave us dragons".

This burning of MMD too ties back into the scene with Dany telling Sam what she did. She burned a woman alive because basically the woman showed not an ounce of empathy towards her about the death of her husband and son, who wasn't even responsible for their deaths. And Dany shows as little empathy to Sam, nor regards herself accountable for it.

And sure Cersei may be a nutter who blows up septs, but Dany is a complete unknown to them, except for the fact that she's the daughter of the deposed Mad King, that her brother wasn't much better, and some tales of her conquering Slaver's Bay with dragons, destroying several cities and then leaving. Even if she has a tie to Westeros through her ancestry, she is a foreign invader to them. I can see why some people would rather choose to serve the enemy they know than the unknown volatile projectile. Her allies didn't bode well either: reaving Ironborn who conquered the North, Dornish snakes who murdered an innocent princess and princes, the kinslayer Tyrion, and a bitter old woman whose sole reason of existence was vengeance. (Olenna would have sided with anyone as long as Cersei was gone, even if it that ally might be worse.) And Dany's own troops are completely foreign, including Dothraki screamers who are famous for pillaging and enslaving people. Do we fault the people who fought for Joffrey, when they were unaware of Joffrey's parentage? More, how aware are people that it was Cersei who blew up the sept. We know she did, and Westerosi people may suspect she did, but none of those present survived. Cersei can easily pawn it off as some tragic accident, because the city has ancient cashes of wildfire. Unfortunately, the show never revealed to us how Cersei framed it, but it is something to ponder over that she did not send her army against House Tyrell before Olenna sided with Dany.

No matter how much I simpathize with what Dany survived and lived through, no matter how much I admire her ideals, I too would not wish her for my queen, because the execution of her justice is very wanting.

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