Ice Queen Posted April 17, 2019 Share Posted April 17, 2019 1 minute ago, sweetsunray said: House Frey weren't traitors. They had already left Robb's side of the war. He had to beg them to come back and apologize for his offences to them. They're not evil for not standing with Robb, but for organising a wedding party to slaughter all their disarmed guests. The Freys aren't traitors. They're murderers, guest murderers. Exactly, It was Robb who broke his oath when he married Jeyne Westerling (book) or Talia (show) instead of a Frey as was agreed to. If there is one thing that's offensive to the gods and men, it's breaking guest right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krishtotter Posted April 17, 2019 Share Posted April 17, 2019 8 minutes ago, El Guapo said: Daenerys is the recognized Queen in the Reach. House Tyrell rules the Reach in her name. By rebelling against the Tyrells they are rebelling against the Queen. This is not complicated. Yes after defeating them she offered to welcome back into the fold if they bent the knee. They made the wrong choice. Poor Tarlys. The lords are the representatives of the Crown in the lands that the Crown bequeathed to them. The Crown giveth and the Crown has every right to taketh away. Daenerys is no legitimate 'queen' at present, anymore than Jon would be by simply declaring himself the true Targareyn heir and finding allies among a few of the ruling houses. That doesn't make you "the" Queen until you sit atop the Throne and seize the sovereignty by means of right of conquest (and thereby establish or restore a dynasty with legal succession by primogeniture or other means). Margaery made this clear in her discussion with Littlefinger with regards to Renly in season 2. At the moment, Daenerys is no different from Renly was - a 'claimant' to the throne with House Tyrrell backing them but not the actual sovereign: "Calling yourself a king doesn't make you a king. And if Renly wasn't a king, then I wasn't a queen." "Do you want to be a queen?" "No. I want to be the queen." Petyr Baelish and Margaery Tyrell, Season 2: "The Ghost of Harrenhal" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-Shiznit Posted April 17, 2019 Share Posted April 17, 2019 3 minutes ago, sweetsunray said: House Frey weren't traitors. They had already left Robb's side of the war. He had to beg them to come back and apologize for his offences to them, despite the fact that the Twins was on the new North-Riverlands kingdom. They're not evil for not standing with Robb, but for organising a wedding party to slaughter all their disarmed guests. The Freys aren't traitors. They're murderers, guest murderers. And then they agreed to join houses with their Liege House, Tully, and betrayed them. Making them traitors. Their oath was to House Tully. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGimletEye Posted April 17, 2019 Share Posted April 17, 2019 15 minutes ago, D-Shiznit said: Let me make it simple for you, the same law/logic that made the members of House Frey traitors, also apply to House Tarly as well. If one house is a traitor, the other is as well, and vice versa. It seems you are trying to define treason here very arbitrarily to suit your needs. As I understand it your definition of treason here hinges upon one group owing loyalty to a group that immediately precedes it in the hierarchy. It's not apparently individuals owing loyalty to individuals in the immediate hierarchy. One wonders why we should accept this notion of treason. For instance, I maybe very quick to judge Walder Frey a traitor. But, not so much with some lowly guard in his household who merely obeyed Walder's commands. Nor is it clear to me why treason should be thought of in terms you advocate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-Shiznit Posted April 17, 2019 Share Posted April 17, 2019 Just now, OldGimletEye said: It seems you are trying to define treason here very arbitrarily to suit your needs. As I understand it your definition of treason here hinges upon one group owing loyalty to a group that immediately precedes it in the hierarchy. It's not apparently individuals owing loyalty to individuals in the immediate hierarchy. One wonders why we should accept this notion of treason. I maybe very quick to judge Walder Frey a traitor. But, not so much with some lowly guard in his household who merely obeyed Walder's commands. What about his sons? Are Black Walder and his brother traitors? If so, then so is Dickon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sweetsunray Posted April 17, 2019 Share Posted April 17, 2019 Just now, D-Shiznit said: And then they agreed to join houses with their Liege House, Tully, and betrayed them. Making them traitors. Their oath was to House Tully. Walder Frey made sure to relegate any such official oath giving to House Tully or Robb Stark to after the wedding. Walder Frey did not pledge himself to House Tully or Robb Stark. Just let them believe that he would. House Frey's crime is the murder of guests, which we can only claim because Catelyn insisted on the ritual of breaking bread with butter and salt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cas Stark Posted April 17, 2019 Share Posted April 17, 2019 There is no House Tyrell by the time Dany meets the Tarlys on the battlefield. They are dead, extinct. Whomever is ruling in Highgarden is a Lannister ally. There is no House Tyrell left to betray, and this isn't the reason she gave anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGimletEye Posted April 17, 2019 Share Posted April 17, 2019 3 minutes ago, D-Shiznit said: What about his sons? Are Black Walder and his brother traitors? I think I've answered this. I'd be a bit cautious in labeling them traitors, since they were not the head of House Frey. This stuff can get mighty tricky real fast, something you don't seem to understand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-Shiznit Posted April 17, 2019 Share Posted April 17, 2019 3 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said: I think I've answered this. I'd be a bit cautious in labeling them traitors, since they were not the head of House Frey. This stuff can get mighty tricky real fast, something you don't seem to understand. Cool, if you believe that Black Walder and his brother aren't traitors. then they you don't need to believe that Dickon is as well, but if you do believe that they are traitors, then so is Dickon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Guapo Posted April 17, 2019 Share Posted April 17, 2019 2 minutes ago, Cas Stark said: There is no House Tyrell by the time Dany meets the Tarlys on the battlefield. They are dead, extinct. Whomever is ruling in Highgarden is a Lannister ally. There is no House Tyrell left to betray, and this isn't the reason she gave anyway. Right there is no more House Tyrell to betray because, you know, they already betrayed them resulting in the death of Olenna Tyrell. I don't even know what point you are trying to make here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGimletEye Posted April 17, 2019 Share Posted April 17, 2019 5 minutes ago, D-Shiznit said: Cool, if you believe that Black Walder and his brother aren't traitors. then they you don't need to believe than Dickon is as well, but if you do believe that they are traitors then so is Dickon. Well I wasn't the one throwing around the word "traitor" here. That was you. Perhaps you should specify what you exactly mean by that word before throwing it around, and your rather peculiar definition of it, so readers can better assess the credibility of your arguments and decide if you are engaging exaggerations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cas Stark Posted April 17, 2019 Share Posted April 17, 2019 Just now, El Guapo said: Right there is no more House Tyrell to betray because, you know, they already betrayed them resulting in the death of Olenna Tyrell. I don't even know what point you are trying to make here. That they weren't executed for betraying House Tyrell. This is a specious argument that isn't made in the show. They were executed for refusing to bend the knee to someone who calls herself the Queen but is not recognized as such in Westeros. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-Shiznit Posted April 17, 2019 Share Posted April 17, 2019 Just now, OldGimletEye said: Well I wasn't the one throwing around the word "traitor" here. That was you. Perhaps you should specify what you exactly mean by that word before throwing it around, so readers can better assess the credibility of your arguments and decide if you are engaging exaggerations. I have specified it, I hold Dickon and his father to the same standard I hold House Frey to. Both betrayed their liege houses and broke their oaths to them. If you want to limit that betrayal to just the leaders of the house, you must do it for both House Frey and Tarly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Guapo Posted April 17, 2019 Share Posted April 17, 2019 Just now, Cas Stark said: That they weren't executed for betraying House Tyrell. This is a specious argument that isn't made in the show. They were executed for refusing to bend the knee to someone who calls herself the Queen but is not recognized as such in Westeros. She was recognized as Queen by the Reach, how many times does this need to be explained? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cas Stark Posted April 17, 2019 Share Posted April 17, 2019 Just now, El Guapo said: She was recognized as Queen by the Reach, how many times does this need to be explained? Yes, by House Tyrell, which is extinct, so it doesn't matter who they recognized as queen, because theyr'e dead now, the Reach is now in the hands of the Lannisters and their allies, who recognize Cersei. Get it? I guess not. LOL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGimletEye Posted April 17, 2019 Share Posted April 17, 2019 1 minute ago, D-Shiznit said: I have specified it, I hold Dickon and his father to the same standard I hold House Frey to. Both betrayed their liege houses and broke their oaths to them. If you want to limit that betrayal to just the leaders of the house, you must do it for both House Frey and Tarly. No actually you didn't until this all got pointed out to you. Sure maybe under your notion they were traitors, but then again your notion of what is and what is not a traitor is debatable, though you seemingly at first acted like it wasn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-Shiznit Posted April 17, 2019 Share Posted April 17, 2019 Just now, El Guapo said: She was recognized as Queen by the Reach, how many times does this need to be explained? Yup, especially since the "crown" was held by House Baratheon and Cersei was not in the line of succession and usurped it. She has no legal claim to it. At that point it is up to the Liege of the Kingdom to decide whoich Crown's authority to recognize on behalf of the kingdom, which Olena did in Dany. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sweetsunray Posted April 17, 2019 Share Posted April 17, 2019 2 minutes ago, El Guapo said: Right there is no more House Tyrell to betray because, you know, they already betrayed them resulting in the death of Olenna Tyrell. I don't even know what point you are trying to make here. But Olenna Tyrell herself is a traitor the crown, forming an alliance with a foreign claimant with an army of slave-makers, the Greyjoy traitors and Dornish traitors, and very visibly a famous kin- and kingslayer. Just because you know Dany means well, doesn't mean Tarlys should. And based on who Dany has as allies, the Tarly decision to consider their oath to the crown as least treasonous is pretty much justified. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGimletEye Posted April 17, 2019 Share Posted April 17, 2019 4 minutes ago, El Guapo said: She was recognized as Queen by the Reach, how many times does this need to be explained? Was that before or after the Tyrells and all their bannermen swore to Joffrey and Cersei? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krishtotter Posted April 17, 2019 Share Posted April 17, 2019 Just now, D-Shiznit said: Yup, especially since the "crown" was held by House Baratheon and Cersei was not in the line of succession and usurped it. She has no legal claim to it. At that point it is up to the Liege of the Kingdom to decide whoich Crown's authority to recognize on behalf of the kingdom, which Olena did in Dany. Cersei took the throne by right of conquest and as the mother of the two preceeding Baratheon monarchs, and the wife of the preceeding Baratheon ruler, she is technically of House Baratheon as well as Lannister. I mean, she never divorced her husband so could have styled herself Cersei Baratheon just like Catelyn Tully was Catelyn Stark. Regardless, she is the last known member of that royal house by marriage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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