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Wildling Queen

My Arya/Jon Endgame Theory

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Contains spoilers for episode 8:01.

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I think there's a significant reason for the scene in which Arya asks Gendry to make her a specific weapon (which, by the way, looks a lot like the one the NK used to kill Viserion), and it wasn't just about seeing where Gendry is now or setting up some kind of future relationship between him and Arya.

I think Arya will be the one to kill the Night King, which will in turn end the army of the dead, fulfilling the Azor Ahai prophecy from the books. I think Jon will be her Nissa Nissa.

We learned in season 7 that killing the NK means killing the entire army of the dead since he's the original maker of all of them. I'm wondering if that's because it kills the source of the magic that animates them, and if that isn't the same magic that animates Jon, which means that killing the NK would kill Jon, as well.

Should Arya or Jon figure this out ahead of time (maybe with Bran's help), and he says he's willing to die to end the NK and save Westeros, that would make Jon Nissa Nissa, willing to make the ultimate sacrifice (he's already been willing to sacrifice his life before, once for the Night's Watch and once when he was beyond the wall and told Daenerys to get everyone out and leave him behind). Killing the NK, defeating the army of the dead, saving the people of Westeros, plus sacrificing the person she loves most (Jon) would make Arya the hero and the Azor Ahai of the story, although I actually think Nissa Nissa is the hero of the Azor Ahai legend. She sacrificed her life, he just sacrificed the person he loved.

 

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22 minutes ago, Wildling Queen said:

We learned in season 7 that killing the NK means killing the entire army of the dead

Generally, I like the idea --- but where did we learn that?

It is known that killing a White Walker also destroys all wight he raised from the dead

That does not mean, that killing a White Walker destroys all White Walkers he created from living babies.

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24 minutes ago, Wildling Queen said:

Nissa Nissa is the hero of the Azor Ahai legend

Is she? Did she do it voluntarily and knowingly? I believe, not.

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3 minutes ago, Kajjo said:

Generally, I like the idea --- but where did we learn that?

It is known that killing a White Walker also destroys all wight he raised from the dead

That does not mean, that killing a White Walker destroys all White Walkers he created from living babies.

I don't think they made any distinction like that in the show. They said that killing him kills the army of the dead. I'm wondering if it's because that kills the source of the magic, which would include killing everything animated by that magic.

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Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, Kajjo said:

Is she? Did she do it voluntarily and knowingly? I believe, not.

When the story is told originally by Sallador Sahn, he says he doesn't know why she did it. but I don't know if that matters.

"‘Nissa Nissa,’ he said to her, for that was her name, ‘bare your breast, and know that I love you best of all that is in this world.’ She did this thing, why I cannot say, and Azor Ahai thrust the smoking sword through her living heart."

She certainly would have known Azor Ahai's goal to save Westeros and she was willing to sacrifice herself for him. She wasn't said to have resisted or tried to save herself.

Edited by Wildling Queen
Added quote from book

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10 minutes ago, Wildling Queen said:

I don't think they made any distinction like that in the show.

Well, they clearly make a distinction between creation (living babies) and raising the dead.

However, I agree that I postulated something like "kill NK and all WW and wights die", too, some while ago. I could really imagine a loud, gruesome battle and suddenly all opponents crumble and fade and eerie silence follows. 

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1 hour ago, Wildling Queen said:

We learned in season 7 that killing the NK means killing the entire army of the dead since he's the original maker of all of them. I'm wondering if that's because it kills the source of the magic that animates them, and if that isn't the same magic that animates Jon, which means that killing the NK would kill Jon, as well.

Jon got raised by a Red Priestess using the power of R'hllor. In the books GRRM has called the people raised by R'hllor fire wights, so I don't think killing the Night King would kill Jon. 

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47 minutes ago, Kajjo said:

Well, they clearly make a distinction between creation (living babies) and raising the dead.

However, I agree that I postulated something like "kill NK and all WW and wights die", too, some while ago. I could really imagine a loud, gruesome battle and suddenly all opponents crumble and fade and eerie silence follows. 

True, but I was referring more to the conversation about killing the NK and how that would kill all of the army of the dead. And I still think that the battle could consist just of cutting through the wights to get to the NK and be epic.

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1 minute ago, Wildling Queen said:

the conversation about killing the NK and how that would kill all of the army of the dead

Really? I forgot about that conversation. Which episode?

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18 minutes ago, Kajjo said:

Really? I forgot about that conversation. Which episode?

Season 7, Episode 6: Beyond the Wall

Jorah to Jon: "When you killed the White Walker, almost all the dead that followed it fell. Why?"

Jon: "Maybe he was the one that turned them."

Jorah: "We can go for the Walkers. Maybe we'll stand a chance."

Jon: "No. We need to take that thing (the wight) back with us. There's a raven flying for Dragonstone now. Daenerys is our only chance."

Beric: "No. There's another. *points at NK* Kill him. He turned them all."

I'm wondering if the Walkers might be the living people, including babies, that the NK turned while the wights are the reanimated dead. Anyway, they definitely indicate that killing the NK will end the entire army of the dead, including the Walkers.

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35 minutes ago, Euron III Greyjoy said:

Jon got raised by a Red Priestess using the power of R'hllor. In the books GRRM has called the people raised by R'hllor fire wights, so I don't think killing the Night King would kill Jon. 

True, but religions have been founded on much less mystical things. Maybe R'hollor came into being as a way to explain the reanimated dead?

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2 minutes ago, Wildling Queen said:

Beric: "No. There's another. *points at NK* Kill him. He turned them all."

Yes, but that could simply mean that the NK turned very many wights, for example at Harthome. That does not necessarily mean that all WW die if the NK dies. But it could mean that in the show, I agree.

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4 minutes ago, Kajjo said:

Yes, but that could simply mean that the NK turned very many wights, for example at Harthome. That does not necessarily mean that all WW die if the NK dies. But it could mean that in the show, I agree.

It might work like a domino though. Kill NK => automatically kill every WW and wight he created => automatically kill every wight the WW created. Pure speculation though, we obviously don't know if NK's death impacts WWs' lives in any way.

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Just now, Nerevanin said:

we obviously don't know if NK's death impacts WWs' lives in any way.

Of course, that's the question. If it does, we have domino.

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Posted (edited)

I heard a theory that the Night King himself is/was a Greenseer and maybe a Warg (notice he patiently waited at the lake for Dany to bring him his dragon).  He never personally pressed the attack. It was like he knew where & when it would all go down.  Look at how swiftly they swooped down on Jon & Company.  They were waiting.  Also he brought down Viserion because he knew he would sink under the water & prevent Dany & he other dragons from burning his corpse.  

Now let’s say he can control or direct all of the WW’s.  What if killing him kills all of the wights but grants the Walkers back their autonomy and they go on a killing rampage without the NK controlling them.  In this scenario, a powerful Warg (we only have one in the show: Bran) has to take a dragonglass shard to the chest and become the new NK and lead them back north of the wall. I could see Arya and her new weapon Gendry is making her doing the job.  

The weapons creator for the show said Arya’s new weapon would be major and badass. So I expect it to do something of utmost importance to the endgame. It can either be used to push the Night King’s current dragonglass heart out of his body to defeat him and/or its detachability will be used to stab a new Night King (Bran or Jon) or Night Queen (Dany or Sansa) in the heart and leaving the shard inserted.  

Maybe the human turned into the OG Night King was the 3 Eyed Raven and he’s ready to pass the title on to the next 3ER/Bran?  Or the original NK is the original Last Hero who sought the help of the CotF to stop the Others.  The original 3ER & CotF tricked him and turned him into the NK to control the Walkers.  So they gave him a means to defeat the Others but it was devious because it actually turned him into one himself to do it.  He’s pissed and wants revenge or no longer wants the job.  Lol.  Arya & her weapon will play a big role in the endgame. 

Edited by Smoke317

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5 hours ago, Smoke317 said:

Arya & her weapon will play a big role in the endgame

Yes, I expect the new weapon to play an important role in the Great War. However, the Great War might not be the endgame of the series.

5 hours ago, Smoke317 said:

say he can control or direct all of the WW’s

I don't believe so. The WW are thinking persons with individuality. The NK appears to be their commander, but there is no magical control. Only the wights are controlled by the WW who raised them

5 hours ago, Smoke317 said:

grants the Walkers back their autonomy

As far as we know the WW are independent, just fighting for the same cause.

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I really like this thread, it's really made me think....

Jon has really been a sacrificial character for some time - he's already died for others, lost his crown for others, etc - it would be completely in character for him to sacrifice his life for others again (which is why part of me thinks he might not be the nissa nissa)

Dany, however, in her speech to Jon when they first met, lets him know everything that she has had to rise about and conquer, in her journey, through her faith in herself.  This is the opposite of someone who will sacrifice themselves for others.  She will keep fighting. So her agreeing to be a nissa nissa, would be completely surprising to me.  Which actually makes me wonder if GRRM might have that plan up his sleeve.

Nissa Nissa was the one who bared her own breast for her husband, and he forged the blade in her.  She did willingly sacrifice herself, in my opinion.  I really don't like the theory that there needs to be a nissa nissa in this time, and I do see that Jon fits the personality more so than Dany.  

What do other's think?

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2 hours ago, Kajjo said:

However, the Great War might not be the endgame of the series.

 

Now that I completely agree with. I think according to the preview for the next episode plus the stated lengths of the upcoming episodes show that the Great War will play out in episode three. I don't know if there will be more to resolve it after that, but I think there will be the Great War and then the war with Cersei, making the second war the final endgame.

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1 hour ago, willowbark said:

She will keep fighting. So her agreeing to be a nissa nissa, would be completely surprising to me.  Which actually makes me wonder if GRRM might have that plan up his sleeve.

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I think Sam's question to Jon is definitely thought-provoking in this regard, and I agree that we already know Jon is willing to sacrifice himself for the greater good, he's done so several times.

Sam asked if Dany would even give up her crown for her people, much less give her life. It's a great question. And yes, I believe we will HAVE to have a Nissa Nissa. There's a whole theoretical basis there about what being a hero even means.

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2 hours ago, willowbark said:

Nissa Nissa was the one who bared her own breast for her husband, and he forged the blade in her.  She did willingly sacrifice herself, in my opinion.  I really don't like the theory that there needs to be a nissa nissa in this time, and I do see that Jon fits the personality more so than Dany.  

What do other's think?

I think D&D will keep it simple - Jon as AA and Dany as NN.

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